DC comics Dimension revision

[Tippelaars]

According to scott snyder, the dimensions in DC are not literal spaces or layers that correlate to physics

And i don't know how to interpret this sca, since it contradicts what MxyzPTlk said about the dimensions in DC https://i.imgur.com/D2d4z1B.jpg

 

[PrinceOfTheMorning]

Well, assuming that message from Snyder is real, it pretty much just confirms what has been obvious for a while now. Snyder's and Tynion's explanation of the 5th Dimension as energy flowing through the multiverse is completely different from how it has previously been depicted. Snyder's and Tynion's cosmology doesn't match up too well with this wiki's dimensional tiering system.

 

[Catalyst75]

Personally, I've taken to looking at the differences between the spatial dimensions and Mxyzptlk's Fifth Dimension in the following way:

3 dimensions of Space - 1 Dimension of Time - 1 Dimension of Imagination. The Fifth Dimension is its own underlying property of reality separate from/beyond space and time in this interpretation.

We can still have String Theory (key words associated with the theory, branes and bulks, appear in the description of the Orrery of Worlds and Bleedspace); it just means treating the Fifth Dimension not as a traditional spatial dimension, but as a separate property of reality.

 

[Elizio33]

This is a bit off topic but Scott Snyder confirm here that the Dark Multiverse is a realm of dreams and of subconscious. So, the DM is probably part of the Dreaming.

 

[Catalyst75]

It is a realm of the subconscious and dreams where worlds are born and then forged, but I would not say it is a part of the Dreaming. The Dreaming encompasses folktales, fairy tales, and so on; the Dark Multiverse encompasses possible variations of worlds in the Multiverse derived from hopes and fears.

 

[Elizio33]

What would be the tier of the Dark Multiverse since it is more than a infinite Multiverse it is a void of possibilities and the dark beneath creation. Where every possibilities (fears and hopes of all living beings) are forged into reality.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, assuming that message from Snyder is real, it pretty much just confirms what has been obvious for a while now. Snyder's and Tynion's explanation of the 5th Dimension as energy flowing through the multiverse is completely different from how it has previously been depicted. Snyder's and Tynion's cosmology doesn't match up too well with this wiki's dimensional tiering system.

Yes. We may have to retier some DC characters based on their feats rather than any higher dimensions because of this.

 

[Elizio33]

What are the DC characters that needs a re-tier @Antvasima?

 

[PrinceOfTheMorning]

Isn't the entire dimensional tiering system going to go through a big change soon anyway?

 

[Catalyst75]

Isn't the entire dimensional tiering system going to go through a big change soon anyway?

How big a change?

 

[Antvasima]

What are the DC characters that needs a re-tier @Antvasima?

Mandrakk, and The Thought Robot mainly, but we might also have to scale Barbatos, the Anti-Monitor, Monitor, and the World Forger strictly from their feats.

 

[Elizio33]

Mandrakk, and The Thought Robot mainly, but we might also have to scale Barbatos, the Anti-Monitor, Monitor, and the World Forger strictly from their feats.

Oh okay. So, Mandrakk and Thought Robot will be no longer 1-B due to their higher level of existence? There's still the Thought Robot holding the Limbo with his fingers in the Monitor Sphere stuff.

 

[Elizio33]

What could be the new tier of Mandrakk, Thought Robot, Barbatos and the brothers based on their feats?

 

[Catalyst75]

Will they be re-tiered higher than they are, or lower than they are?

As it comes to the DC dimensions, Grant Morrison used M-Theory (specifically Brane Theory) to describe his Multiverse map. Bleedspace is a Bulk, while each of the 52 Universes were branes.

I think what Scott said can be interpreted thus: branes and bulks that are higher spatial dimensions still exist, but the Fifth and Sixth Dimensions act as "governing layers of being/reality" in such as way that separates them from traditional spatial and temporal dimensions (and in some ways places them above said dimensions).

 

[Antvasima]

I cannot just decide such a change on my own. The suggestion would need further staff and community input, but we try to make exceptions for higher-dimensional characters whose supposedly qualitatively superior power is explicitly contradicted by the stories.

The Monitors would probably have to be scaled from the Anti-Monitor destroying an infinite amount of universes.

 

[Elizio33]

@Antvasima the thing is their original selves exist on the same plane of existence as Perpetua's final form (Sixth Dimension) who hold creation in her hand. And the brothers are likely superior to Mister Mxy. The brothers' Original Selves should be higher than 2-A execpt Barbatos who killed In Multiverse World Forger.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I suppose that "At least High 2-A" by scaling from Mxyzptlk could work as well.

 

[Elizio33]

Maybe tier 1 for their original selves due to the fact that they are much bigger than the Orrery of World, the Antimatter Universe and the Dark Multiverse and possibly also the god and monitor sphere. The In Multiverse Monitors could be 2-A scaled from the Anti-Monitor who destroyed infinite amount of universes and for the Monitor, he is tied and empowered by infinite universes and the World Forger, he forged infinite amount of universes in the World Forge. But i think the In Multiverse Brothers are more powerful than the In Multiverse Monitors since the Monitors are aspects of Mar Novu.

 

[Antvasima]

I do not know. It seems best to decide this in a separate thread headed by POTM.

 

[PrinceOfTheMorning]

All I have left to do before writing the actual thread is get scans from Multiversity. Thanks for being patient with this.

 

[Antvasima]

No problem.

 

[KarmodF]

Sorry for bothering, but, what is being changed here? I know Tought Robot and the monitors, but what changes are being implemented (As in downgrades or upgrades/revised)?

 

[Antvasima]

That is yet to be determined.

 

[KarmodF]

Im just hoping that we dont downgrade god tiers to Low 1-C based on those recent statements about the multiverse being 6-D.

 

[Antvasima]

I do not know. Maybe several keys will be necessary for different eras/versions?

 

[Elizio33]

Im just hoping that we dont downgrade god tiers to Low 1-C based on those recent statements about the multiverse being 6-D.

The Sixth Dimension is not 6-D and 6th & 5th dimensions are not literal spaces or layers that correlate with physics.

 

[Catalyst75]

Which raises the question of how we handle them going forward. "Final Crisis" still happened, so the higher-dimensional happenings and the use of String Theory (specifically the Brane Theory version) to describe the Multiverse are still valid.

Depending on how we interpret it, the Fifth Dimension could scale to the highest spatial dimension within the DC Multiverse (the Monitor Sphere), while the Sixth Dimension scales above both.

 

[Elizio33]

I thought the 5th dimension was the Bleed

 

[Catalyst75]

I thought the 5th dimension was the Bleed

I'm just trying to figure things out myself. I think the Bleed can be the fifth spatial dimension - 4 dimensions of space + 1 dimension of time.

 

[Elizio33]

That makes sense

 

[Antvasima]

We should probably close this thread. Nothing is going to be resolved here anyway.

 

[Hellbeast1]

Isn't the entire dimensional tiering system going to go through a big change soon anyway?

Late I know but basically the proposal is to only treat higher dimensional power being infinitely above only in verses where dimensions work that way

 

[Antvasima]

Hellbeast is essentially correct.

 

[Catalyst75]

So, that will have quite the impact on settings that use higher dimensions, but don't explicitly depict those beings as "infinitely above", or have them behave in ways that go against the idea of them being "infinitely above"?

 

[Antvasima]

We already use the second system/requirement, but after the revision we will add a requirement that higher dimensions must be treated as qualitatively superior as well.

 

[Sandman31]

Depending on how we interpret it, the Fifth Dimension could scale to the highest spatial dimension within the DC Multiverse (the Monitor Sphere), while the Sixth Dimension scales above both.

The Monitor Sphere is not a spatial dimension. It was the thoughts/stories of the Monitor Mind given form. Grant Morrison even stated that the last realm that is within DCU is Limbo while the Monitor Realm and The Overvoid are archetypal realms that exists beyond it.

 

[Elizio33]

The Monitor Sphere is not a spatial dimension. It was the thoughts/stories of the Monitor Mind given form. Grant Morrison even stated that the last realm that is within DCU is Limbo while the Monitor Realm and The Overvoid are archetypal realms that exists beyond it.

Yes but now, it seems that the Monitor Sphere is not totally the same thing as it was portrayed in Final Crisis storyline. The Monitor Sphere still exist outside the Multiverse and is at the edge of things and was formed with curent Universal structure. If the Monitor Sphere is destroyed, the Multiverse will be destroyed as well. However, since the Multiversity map is still used by various authors, Nil still exist beyond the Sphere of the Gods.

 

[PrinceOfTheMorning]

"is at the edge of things"

• It's always been that way, existing around the DCU

"formed with the current universal structure"

• Mar Novu is almost certainly referring to how there are two structures. The first was made by Perpetua. The second is the result of her creation being remade without her taint. It is this "current" one that the Monitor Sphere formed around.

"If the Monitor Sphere is destroyed, the Multiverse will be destroyed as well"

• Of course, since the Orrery is a structure sitting in it.

 

[Elizio33]

"is at the edge of things"

Yeah indeed. Plus in the Monitor Sphere, Mar Novu peered beyond the void to see other Multiverses within the greater Omniverse.

 

[PrinceOfTheMorning]

Anyway, Ant said this should be closed and I agree. A comprehensive version is coming in a couple days, it's sitting half-formed in my sandbox right now. I'll go ahead and close this one.