DBS Manga: The Speed Scaling

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

I'm NGL, I saw what you were talking about RN while searching it up, but regardless the context is he's comparing Vegito to Beerus. You may not understand this as presumably a non-japanese speaking westerner.

First off, do YOU speak Japanese to be making claims like that? You better do.
Because yes, ALL I said is that Shin never once states that Vegito surpassed Lord Beerus, he just makes an ambiguous implication that Vegito's power and Beerus' have some relationship, which he never concludes because he was just stuttering. Furthermore he makes the statement for Vegito charging a Kamehameha wave.

the を (wo) is followed by an ellipsis, indicating an unfinished thought. Without the continuation of the sentence, it's challenging to determine the exact meaning. If there is more context or if there's a verb that follows を, it would clarify the intended action or relationship between Vegito's power and Lord Beerus. We don't, so we DON'T know the intented relationship between them.

Take a chill pill dawg, what.

So I have to take attitude and not clap back? No, it was a mild response.

This is basically both:
a) headcanon
b) not an argument

It'd be a genetic fallacy, first of all, and secondly Beerus has never had his power changed. You're projecting the DBS anime onto the manga.

It wasn't intended as an argument, my point was how inconsistent V-Jump is at accurate information and that it's fair for the site to take it with a grain of salt.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

also this

Nope. Bro's just making up scaling.

The logic for SSJB being only 10x is dumb. SSJB without CSSJB after a bit you only get less than 10% of the initial power. SSJG Goku surpassed SSJB Vegeta at this state, but that just means Base Goku’s power is above that of Base Vegeta’s instead of SSJB being only 10x above SSJG. Which doesn’t make logical sense if you think about it SSJB is SSJG + SSJ.

Again, just taking a multiplier via association which can definitely be interpreted in other ways (as in, SS with God Ki imbued) over stated multipliers. If you want to challenge this, go ahead and make a thread, it's currently accepted.


But just to inform you that I intend to support it until the very end. And WHAT?

So GOKU IS SUPPOSEDLY 5X STRONGER THAN VEGETA? LMFAO.

They're COMPARABLE.
Vegeta had a far better performance against Frost than Goku did. If Goku was FIVE TIMES STRONGER than Vegeta, bro would've said something. Don't make absurd claims when you can't prove them.

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

So I have to take attitude and not clap back? No, it was a mild response.

Dude it's not that deep, take a chill pill, maybe a 10 minute keyboard brake or something.

It wasn't intended as an argument, my point was how inconsistent V-Jump is at accurate information and that it's fair for the site to take it with a grain of salt.

This isn't a solid rebuttal as again, Vegito has no anti feats and we already have precedence in the manga.

 

[AwkguyDB]

but didn't Goku hold back against Frost?

 

[Nullflowerblush]

"を" (wo) - direct object marker.

Japanese is a very context-based language.

The particle "を" (o) potentially:

• (1) indicates direct object of action
• (2) indicates subject of causative expression
• (3) indicates an area traversed
• (4) indicates time (period) over which action takes place
• (5) indicates point of departure or separation of action
• (6) indicates object of desire, like, hate, etc.

The latter three can be disregarded entirely off the bat. The second can be disregarded, too, because nothing in the sentence indicates the sentence is causative (e.g., "Mom made Sara eat the broccoli.", wherein rather than Mom eating the broccoli herself, she causes Sara to eat the broccoli).

That leaves the first and the third: indicating direct object of action and indicating an area traversed.

Except, "ベジットのパワーは…もしかして…すでにビルス様を…" contains not a single action verb whatsoever to have a direct object for the particle to even be indicating.

That only leaves the third option, which, when inserted into the sentence, functions as indicating that Vegito's power "traversed" (lit.), or "went over", or "went beyond", or "exceeded", or "transcended", or simply "surpassed" Beerus.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

my point was how inconsistent V-Jump is at accurate information

Any examples pertaining to Super?

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

Great work from Null as usual lol

 

[AwkguyDB]

Imma be honest I disagree with using the events in the manga instead of the Broly movie. The manga quite literally contradicts itself when it comes to the Broly movie

Aside from Toyotaro literally saying that the movie is an extension of the Manga

The events shown in the manga contradict
In the Moro Arc Goku and Vegeta fought Broly as Super Saiyan Blues without damage and a team

But in the Super Hero Arc the flashback plays closely to the movie with Goku fighting Broly being in Base/Ikari while the background is also set in a lava filled environment

simply put the Broly scenes are simply there to just give context to key points in the movie

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

Imma be honest I disagree with using the events in the manga instead of the Broly movie. The manga quite literally contradicts itself when it comes to the Broly movie

Aside from Toyotaro literally saying that the movie is an extension of the Manga

The events shown in the manga contradict
In the Moro Arc Goku and Vegeta fought Broly as Super Saiyan Blues without damage and a team

But in the Super Hero Arc the flashback plays closely to the movie with Goku fighting Broly being in Base/Ikari while the background is also set in a lava filled environment

simply put the Broly scenes are simply there to just give context to key points in the movie

It doesn't need to be like a hyper-literal portrayal, NGL. It's just showing there were fights and whatnot

 

[AwkguyDB]

It doesn't need to be like a hyper-literal portrayal, NGL. It's just showing there were fights and whatnot

which is why we should just use the movie and not rely on inconsistent rehashes

 

[Nullflowerblush]

They're COMPARABLE.

This is from Chapter 5—directly after the events of Resurrection 'F' and before they even found out about the Tournament of Destroyers.

Vegeta had a far better performance against Frost than Goku did.

Hard to say. Vegeta is the aggressive-type, unlike Goku.




What is certain, though, is that, like Vegeta, Goku was easily dominating Frost. Only difference is: Goku wanted a good fight, Vegeta wanted to crush Frost.

If Goku was FIVE TIMES STRONGER than Vegeta, bro would've said something. Don't make absurd claims when you can't prove them.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Japanese is a very context-based language.

The particle "を" (o) potentially:

• (1) indicates direct object of action
• (2) indicates subject of causative expression
• (3) indicates an area traversed
• (4) indicates time (period) over which action takes place
• (5) indicates point of departure or separation of action
• (6) indicates object of desire, like, hate, etc.

The latter three can be disregarded entirely off the bat. The second can be disregarded, too, because nothing in the sentence indicates the sentence is causative (e.g., "Mom made Sara eat the broccoli.", wherein rather than Mom eating the broccoli herself, she causes Sara to eat the broccoli).

That leaves the first and the third: indicating direct object of action and indicating an area traversed.

Except, "ベジットのパワーは…もしかして…すでにビルス様を…" contains not a single action verb whatsoever to have a direct object for the particle to even be indicating.

That only leaves the third option, which, when inserted into the sentence, functions as indicating that Vegito's power "traversed" (lit.), or "went over", or "went beyond", or "exceeded", or "transcended", or simply "surpassed" Beerus.

You can tell you don't know anything about the language, that is the CRAZIEST MENTAL GYMNASTICS OF ALL TIME.

The third interpretation of wo talks about a PHYSICAL AREA BEING TRAVERSED, not a concept. That is absolutely crazy. AREA. DO I NEED TO EXPLAIN WHAT AN AREA IS. PHYSICAL SPACE. Holy macaroni, you went far and beyond with that twisting meaning shit. Wo only means area traversed when used in context of travelling through an area, which sounds pretty obvious when I say it, but apparently I need to teach basic Japanese to you.

"Oh, b-b-but the sentence has no action verb"

Because, "すでにビルス様を…", the を (wo) is followed by an ellipsis. An ellipsis in Japanese means the thought or sentence is UNFINISHED. Shin never concluded his thought, he didn't specify the relation between Beerus' and Vegito's power.

"Ellipses (リーダー rīdā (leaders), 点線 tensen (dotted line), or てんてん ten-ten ("dot dot") indicate an intentional omission or abbreviation, or a pause in speech, an unfinished thought or, at the end of a sentence, a trailing off into silence (aposiopesis)"

If Shin were to say Vegito surpassed Beerus' power, HE WOULDN'T USE AN OBJECT MARKER FOR A PHYSICAL SPACE BEING TRAVERSED, HE WOULD JUST USE THE WORD THAT MEANS SURPASSING IN JAPANESE, LMFAO.

In the sentence “ベジットのパワーは…もしかして…すでにビルス様を…”, “wo” is used as a direct object marker for “ビルス様” (Lord Beerus). The verb that would act upon “ビルス様” is not given in the sentence, but it’s unlikely to be a verb implying movement through a space. Therefore, in this context, “wo” does not indicate an area traversed. It’s marking “ビルス様” as the entity that is being acted upon or affected by “ベジットのパワー” (Vegetto’s power).

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

This is from Chapter 5—directly after the events of Resurrection 'F' and before they even found out about the Tournament of Destroyers.

OOooo! Yeah, Goku got MaGiCaLLy StRonGeR.

I present you, Chapter 7. They're literally equal for the most of the series in their respective forms, except in some situations like Fused Zamas. (But then Vegeta got the same shit too three chapters later)

OH OKAY!
BASE GOKU IS EQUAL TO 10% OF SUPER SAIYAN BLUE VEGETA THEN! GREAT SCALING, NULL. YOU'RE THE GOAT.

No. Vegeta was stamina strained and was underestimating Hit. Goku was only able to surpass Blue Vegeta while using Super Saiyan God according to Beerus, so using these scans only show Toyotaro being an absolute trash mangaka, not anything relevant to scaling.

We are not going to make the claim that Base Goku was somehow leagues above Base Vegeta because you want a 50 times multiplier. You can either deal with it, or cope about it because these arguments are not convincing.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

An ellipsis in Japanese means the thought or sentence is UNFINISHED.

or, at the end of a sentence, a trailing off into silence

a PHYSICAL AREA BEING TRAVERSED, not a concept

You're right, that's my fault.
So I did a little more digging, and,

"Another place you'll find を is at the very end of a sentence. In this kind of sentence, the verb is purposefully missing, and the listener or reader is expected to complete the sentence in their head using world knowledge or context clues. There are three main reasons why this happens — you might be clarifying what the object of a verb is, you might be trying to make something sound catchy or attention-grabbing, or it could be part of a set-phrase greeting."

I present you, Chapter 7.

And then they lived happily ever after.
Or, wait—and then they trained for three years off-screen.

Vegeta was stamina strained and was underestimating Hit.

Wait so a stamina-drained (from the fight with Cabba) Vegeta at less than 10% of Blue's strength = God Goku?
Meaning there are additional factors in play affecting the scaling?
Vegeta isn't even at 100% normal strength for that less than 10% Blue strength to even matter in the way of determining a multiplier.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

You're right, that's my fault.
So I did a little more digging, and,

Cool.
That means Shin didn't actually state anything and it was a mistranslation to say he stated Vegito surpassed Beerus. It's completely interpretative.

By the way, the fact Wo isn't given a verb proves it's an unfinished thought, you pointing out it can also trail off into silence is pointless.

And then they lived happily ever after.
Or, wait—and then they trained for three years off-screen.

Ah yes, must've forgotten how Goku got several times stronger than Vegeta while training with Vegeta himself, just magically, and bro didn't say anything about it. Very in-character for Vegeta, who is so adamant on not letting Goku surpass him, not to comment on how apparently so much stronger than him Goku's gotten.

It's easier to make assumptions instead of taking what's given to us by the narrative... Of course, only when it's convenient for your argument.

Wait so a stamina-drained (from the fight with Cabba) Vegeta at less than 10% of Blue's strength = God Goku?
Meaning there are additional factors in play affecting the scaling?
Vegeta isn't even at 100% normal strength for that less than 10% Blue strength to even matter in the way of determining a multiplier.

Vegeta was at less than 10% of Blue's strength (actually, couldn't unleash it, as the correct translation would state) because he was stamina-drained. He didn't choose to use 10 percent of his strength against Hit, he was going all-out, only that it was 10 percent of his original power in Blue.

Goku straight up said Vegeta could've beaten Hit. There's no narrative implication or reasoning why Goku would be astronomically stronger than Vegeta as you'd imply.

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

You can tell you don't know anything about the language, that is the CRAZIEST MENTAL GYMNASTICS OF ALL TIME.

I’m gonna see later, I’ll ask a Japanese phd student.

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

No. Vegeta was stamina strained and was underestimating Hit. Goku was only able to surpass Blue Vegeta while using Super Saiyan God according to Beerus, so using these scans only show Toyotaro being an absolute trash mangaka, not anything relevant to scaling

Can you stop saying “oh toyotarou is a trash mangaka ” to refute arguments? That just doesn’t work, and if this is your response to holes in your argument…

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Try to stay calm, everyone, stressing about things like this is not good.

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

Nope. Bro's just making up scaling.

Again, just taking a multiplier via association which can definitely be interpreted in other ways (as in, SS with God Ki imbued) over stated multipliers. If you want to challenge this, go ahead and make a thread, it's currently accepted.


But just to inform you that I intend to support it until the very end. And WHAT?

So GOKU IS SUPPOSEDLY 5X STRONGER THAN VEGETA? LMFAO.

They're COMPARABLE.
Vegeta had a far better performance against Frost than Goku did. If Goku was FIVE TIMES STRONGER than Vegeta, bro would've said something. Don't make absurd claims when you can't prove them.

Sure, Goku‘s SSJG being stronger than less than 10% of Vegeta’s SSJB is accepted.

The scan you posted happened way before the U6 tourney. Also, the statement says that Vegeta couldn’t even fight AT EVEN 10% of SSJB’s power which means the number is even lower than that. So, a 10x multiplier would be wrong either way. Also, we know that SSJ is a 50x multiplier, so why would adding SSJ onto SSJG be only 10x stronger? The scan you’re using for your claims doesn’t even assert what you’re saying.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Sure, Goku‘s SSJG being stronger than less than 10% of Vegeta’s SSJB is accepted.

The scan you posted happened way before the U6 tourney. Also, the statement says that Vegeta couldn’t even fight AT EVEN 10% of SSJB’s power which means the number is even lower than that. So, a 10x multiplier would be wrong either way. Also, we know that SSJ is a 50x multiplier, so why would adding SSJ onto SSJG be only 10x stronger? The scan you’re using for your claims doesn’t even assert what you’re saying.

I posted scans right before the tournament in chapter 7 as well, they were comparable all the way through and Goku did nothing but train with Vegeta in HTC for three years. The manga goes out of his way to show that Goku and Vegeta are around the same level on all chapters leaning to the tournament. They are comparable. That's what's been shown to us, don't use headcanon to argue your point.

I won't extend too long on the numerical argument. If it was any significant lower percentage, they would have stated a lower percentage. That's how a statement works, if they stated 10%, it means his output was around that, but somewhat lower. "round numbers" are usually 5s and 0s, so it's likely closer to 10% than 5%. 10x is a perfectly reasonable low end. It's more of a low end when you consider SSG is stronger than less than 10%, and we're scaling it comparable to 10%.

I don't need to know a reason why SS is not shown to be as effective in SSG, I'm not the writer, ask him. Fact is, the manga itself implied SSG is stronger than around 10% of Blue, that's all we need to know.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Can you stop saying “oh toyotarou is a trash mangaka ” to refute arguments? That just doesn’t work, and if this is your response to holes in your argument…

Hey, can you stop strawmanning my points to seem like I'm using personal taste to refute arguments? Because while I am including these personal takes, they are in conclusion to an actual argument I make before stating so.

I straight up refute the notion that Base Goku v Hit is a hole in my argument. It isn't. Hit just used more strength against Blue Vegeta then he used against Goku until he was in his God form.
I argued about how Beerus himself stated only at Super Saiyan God does Goku surpass Vegeta's Super Saiyan Blue form. Showing Hit vs Goku before he turns God is pointless.

 

[Jaakor48]

In the Manga, this gap is not even close to being that big. You're using a multiplier via association vs a stated multiplier, that's terrible.

The lore is that a Saiyan while using god ki goes Super Saiyan, and that is Super Saiyan Blue.

But the manga has 2 versions of SSB, the initial and mastered, the initial was the "less than 10%", MSSB was something else

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

But the manga has 2 versions of SSB, the initial and mastered, the initial was the "less than 10%", MSSB was something else

No? Perfected SSB just keeps up at full power without stamina depletion. You can use the full power of SSB by using it sparringly.

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

I posted scans right before the tournament in chapter 7 as well, they were comparable all the way through and Goku did nothing but train with Vegeta in HTC for three years. The manga goes out of his way to show that Goku and Vegeta are around the same level on all chapters leaning to the tournament. They are comparable. That's what's been shown to us, don't use headcanon to argue your point.

I won't extend too long on the numerical argument. If it was any significant lower percentage, they would have stated a lower percentage. That's how a statement works, if they stated 10%, it means his output was around that, but somewhat lower. "round numbers" are usually 5s and 0s, so it's likely closer to 10% than 5%. 10x is a perfectly reasonable low end. It's more of a low end when you consider SSG is stronger than less than 10%, and we're scaling it comparable to 10%.

I don't need to know a reason why SS is not shown to be as effective in SSG, I'm not the writer, ask him. Fact is, the manga itself implied SSG is stronger than around 10% of Blue, that's all we need to know.

Sure, but you were still naming instances before the tourney. During the 3 years when Goku and Vegeta trained, Goku improved more than Vegeta as he got CSSJB and Vegeta didn’t. Also, even in the tourney we even see that against Hit Goku does vastly better than Vegeta. I’m not using headcanon in any of my arguments.

In this example, you just mentioned how I was using headcanon, but just used headcanon that’s not a good basis to argue off of considering how it’s not definite. If we know that Vegeta’s output wasn’t even 10% of SSJB’s power, then it would be lower trying to gauge a number based off this makes a lot of weird and bad assumptions.

The manga never made this claim, you did. The manga tells us SSJG Goku surpassed SSJB Vegeta, who couldn’t even use 10% of SSJB’s power. This literally just again just means that the number is less than 10% and doesn’t contradict SSJB being 50x above SSJG.

 

[Jaakor48]

No? Perfected SSB just keeps up at full power without stamina depletion. You can use the full power of SSB by using it sparringly.

Iirc, oracle fish noted to Beerus that MSSB Goku surpassed Vegeta in strength during the Zamasu arc and when Vegeta achieved the form they wer stated as equals again, but I might be misremembering


However sssb is literally super Saiyan on top SSG, that Vegeta couldn't even use 10% doesn't disprove that imho, it's quite a leap to remove a long-standing multiplier

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Can someone link the fact that ssjb is ssj god + ssj?

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Sure, but you were still naming instances before the tourney. During the 3 years when Goku and Vegeta trained, Goku improved more than Vegeta as he got CSSJB and Vegeta didn’t. Also, even in the tourney we even see that against Hit Goku does vastly better than Vegeta. I’m not using headcanon in any of my arguments.

They are shown to be equal in literally all instances until the tournament. This is what the narrative shows to the reader, you're claiming it shifts with no indication in the story just because you can't accept SSB not being the same multiplier as a regular SSJ over a regular saiyan. That's headcanon.

• CSSJB is just a way to conceal your energy inside your body and use SSB's 100% for longer. It doesn't do anything for your base form.
• Also there is no evidence Goku got it in this training session.
• Again, Vegeta would've commented on it
• Goku only used CSSJB after several attempts against Goku Black. If he could've used it, he would have.

You're bad at this, ngl.

In this example, you just mentioned how I was using headcanon, but just used headcanon that’s not a good basis to argue off of considering how it’s not definite. If we know that Vegeta’s output wasn’t even 10% of SSJB’s power, then it would be lower trying to gauge a number based off this makes a lot of weird and bad assumptions.

It's not headcanon. That's how statements work. 10 is a round number, so is 5. If they used 10%, then it must be closer to 10% than 5%. If Vegeta was at 2% capacity, stating 10% which would be five times his capacity is nonsensical and pointless.
If the manga is trying to give you data, it's going to use an approximation.

The manga never made this claim, you did.

The manga did make this claim. Again, just because you can't interpret a statement that's inconvenient to you, that's on you. It directly contradicts the 50x multiplier, a "not even 10%" couldn't be any less than 8%.
Terms like "about 5%" would've been used for anything less than 7%.
Or "less than 5%" if it was less than 5%.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

I agree with Topaz. Though Topaz relax a little.

 

[Jaakor48]

If you're trying to change the SSB multiplier

You may need to make a CRT about it, because it would make no sense having manga speed scaling 10x and then manga AP scaling 50x

The current SSB accepted multiplier is 50x I believe

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Can someone link the fact that ssjb is ssj god + ssj?

All the manga states is that "SSGSS surpasses even the God form" or that "Saiyans with god-like power without changing form can turn into a super saiyan, and that's how SSGSS is born".

Blue is just regular SS with God Ki, it's not God Form turning into SS. That's an Anime thing.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

If you're trying to change the SSB multiplier

You may need to make a CRT about it, because it would make no sense having manga speed scaling 10x and then manga AP scaling 50x

The current SSB accepted multiplier is 50x I believe

It isn't. For the manga, it's 10x

YOU guys need to stop trying to argue this here and make a thread.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

All the manga states is that "SSGSS surpasses even the God form" or that "Saiyans with god-like power without changing form can turn into a super saiyan, and that's how SSGSS is born".

It's not as clear cut yes. It might be talking about the method being similar. Not the increase in power. That is never outright stated.

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

They are shown to be equal in literally all instances until the tournament. This is what the narrative shows to the reader, you're claiming it shifts with no indication in the story just because you can't accept SSB not being the same multiplier as a regular SSJ over a regular saiyan. That's headcanon.

• CSSJB is just a way to conceal your energy inside your body and use SSB's 100% for longer. It doesn't do anything for your base form.
• Also there is no evidence Goku got it in this training session.
• Again, Vegeta would've commented on it
• Goku only used CSSJB after several attempts against Goku Black. If he could've used it, he would have.

You're bad at this, ngl.

It's not headcanon. That's how statements work. 10 is a round number, so is 5. If they used 10%, then it must be closer to 10% than 5%. If Vegeta was at 2% capacity, stating 10% which would be five times his capacity is nonsensical and pointless.
If the manga is trying to give you data, it's going to use an approximation.

The manga did make this claim. Again, just because you can't interpret a statement that's inconvenient to you, that's on you. It directly contradicts the 50x multiplier, a "not even 10%" couldn't be any less than 8%.
Terms like "about 5%" would've been used for anything less than 7%.
Or "less than 5%" if it was less than 5%.

You realize that if they’re shown to be equal until the tournament, then that just proves my point right? The statement happens in the tournament. It’s not that I can’t accept SSJB being a SSJ boost ontop of SSJG. It’s that nothing contradicts it and basic occam’s razor.
You didn’t tell me anything I didn’t know already about CSSJB in the bulletin points, but Goku uses CSSJB against Hit before the Goku Black saga.

Those mental gymnastics are still headcanon. First, they’ve had instances of where they may seem equal until the tournament like you said. If the statement occurs in the tournament and we know Goku is stronger in said tournament, where it tells us SSJG Goku surpasses SSJB Vegeta who couldn’t even utilize 10% of SSJB’s original power. Then, why would this lower SSJB’s multiplier instead of Goku being that strong. Also, again you’re trying to gauge a number based off many assumptions.

Again, no. The manga states that SSJG Goku was stronger than Vegeta who couldn’t even output a tenth of SSJB’s original power. You’re the one twisting the statement to make it more convenient for you. I’m simply saying that this statement doesn’t contradict that SSJB is an additional SSJ increase over SSJG. You’re again making heavy assumptions.

It isn't. For the manga, it's 10x

YOU guys need to stop trying to argue this here and make a thread.

That’s wrong, AKM made a thread a while ago which got 50x SSJG for SSJB accepted. He used the same scan that you just sent as well.

 

[Spinoirr]

Here's the Dragon Ball Super manga scaling blog to help with the speed scaling

 

[Spinoirr]

Anyways Super Saiyan Blue is 50 times stronger then ssj God, the problem is the stamina drain was a problem until they mastered it, the stamina drain of using the form twice a day drained it to be weaker then ssj God

It's still ssj mixed with super saiyan God in the manga as goku explained in ROF

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

You realize that if they’re shown to be equal until the tournament, then that just proves my point right? The statement happens in the tournament. It’s not that I can’t accept SSJB being a SSJ boost ontop of SSJG. It’s that nothing contradicts it and basic occam’s razor.
You didn’t tell me anything I didn’t know already about CSSJB in the bulletin points, but Goku uses CSSJB against Hit before the Goku Black saga.

Goku got magically stronger because "**** it", the manga doesn't need to clarify that.
No he didn't.

Those mental gymnastics are still headcanon. First, they’ve had instances of where they may seem equal until the tournament like you said. If the statement occurs in the tournament and we know Goku is stronger in said tournament, where it tells us SSJG Goku surpasses SSJB Vegeta who couldn’t even utilize 10% of SSJB’s original power. Then, why would this lower SSJB’s multiplier instead of Goku being that strong. Also, again you’re trying to gauge a number based off many assumptions.

This isn't lowering anything, it's already in the profiles.

Again, no. The manga states that SSJG Goku was stronger than Vegeta who couldn’t even output a tenth of SSJB’s original power. You’re the one twisting the statement to make it more convenient for you. I’m simply saying that this statement doesn’t contradict that SSJB is an additional SSJ increase over SSJG. You’re again making heavy assumptions.

You're claiming Goku got five times stronger than Vegeta when there is no indication of such, no comments from Vegeta or anyone. They all performed basically the same.

That’s wrong, AKM made a thread a while ago which got 50x SSJG for SSJB accepted. He used the same scan that you just sent as well.

Send me that thread, it's not applied in the profiles at all.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Is bro talking about this DBS ANIME THREAD?

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

Goku got magically stronger because "**** it", the manga doesn't need to clarify that.
No he didn't.

This isn't lowering anything, it's already in the profiles.

You're claiming Goku got five times stronger than Vegeta when there is no indication of such, no comments from Vegeta or anyone. They all performed basically the same.

Send me that thread, it's not applied in the profiles at all.

How does that scan disprove anything I said?

I mentioned SSJG Goku being above Vegeta already being on the profile.

Goku did perform better than Vegeta, he performed way better than Vegeta in the hit fight and Null gave a bunch of scans to prove so in the first page.

Is bro talking about this DBS ANIME THREAD?

I don’t see why that thread wouldn’t apply to the manga, but yeah that thread.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Goku did perform better than Vegeta, he performed way better than Vegeta in the hit fight and Null gave a bunch of scans to prove so in the first page.

Unless you're arguing Base and SS Goku is superior to SS Blue Vegeta, no he didn't. I already replied to that, Vegeta could've beaten Hit if he didn't turn SS against Cabba.

I don’t see why that thread wouldn’t apply to the manga, but yeah that thread.

I don't know bucko, maybe because IT USES ANIME-ONLY SCANS? You can look at the justification in both profiles, currently, a 10x multiplier is accepted.

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

Unless you're arguing Base and SS Goku is superior to SS Blue Vegeta, no he didn't. I already replied to that, Vegeta could've beaten Hit if he didn't turn SS against Cabba.

I don't know bucko, maybe because IT USES ANIME-ONLY SCANS? You can look at the justification in both profiles, currently, a 10x multiplier is accepted.

How did Goku not do better against Hit than Vegeta? Also, how would Vegeta not turning SSJ against Cabba change the result of the fight?

The thread used this scan:

All the manga states is that "SSGSS surpasses even the God form" or that "Saiyans with god-like power without changing form can turn into a super saiyan, and that's how SSGSS is born".

Blue is just regular SS with God Ki, it's not God Form turning into SS. That's an Anime thing.

Also SSJB being SSJG and SSJ is not an anime only thing.

Translation

超サイヤ人ゴッド超サイヤ人
超サイヤ人ゴッドのパワーを持ったサイヤ人の超サイヤ人。エネルギー消費が激しい。 髪色は青だ。
Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan
A Super Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God. Energy consumption is intense. Hair color is blue.

The profile also just mentions Goku being stronger than Blue Vegeta not that SSJB is 10x SSJG.