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DBS Conservative Speed Multipliers (Remastered)

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Again, simply saying a super saiyan version of SSG is not enough evidence for it to be EXACTLY like original super saiyan. SSB is a lot more calmer and comes with ki control, that lets Goku use kaioken. SSJ cannot do that. SSJ initially just came from rage, and then some S-cells bs. The whole concept of SSB is to not let the ki leak out of the body. Their entire training regime under Whis was different to achieve SSB. It's a god form only achieved through a specific means of training.

Both forms are fundamentally very different. With all these differences, why would a single statement about it being a super saiyan version of SSG be sufficient to grant the same multiplier as SSJ? That only means it's an upgrade and a level beyond SSG. Nothing about multiplier can be discerned from that statement.

SirAlex09 said:
Hold on. Base Kefla was stomping SSJG Goku while SSJ Kefla and SSJB Goku were pretty equal until Kefla's Zenkai
Click to expand...
Not really. Kefla and Goku were just playing around when they were trading blows. It was visibly clear with how they were smirking and their back and forth banter. It was only after Kefla got serious that Goku had to use kaioken, and still got knocked out with a single serious kick.
 
AKM sama said:
Again, simply saying a super saiyan version of SSG is not enough evidence for it to be EXACTLY like original super saiyan. SSB is a lot more calmer and comes with ki control, that lets Goku use kaioken. SSJ cannot do that. SSJ initially just came from rage, and then some S-cells bs. The whole concept of SSB is to not let the ki leak out of the body. Their entire training regime under Whis was different to achieve SSB. It's a god form only achieved through a specific means of training.

Both forms are fundamentally very different. With all these differences, why would a single statement about it being a super saiyan version of SSG be sufficient to grant the same multiplier as SSJ? That only means it's an upgrade and a level beyond SSG. Nothing about multiplier can be discerned from that statement.


Not really. Kefla and Goku were just playing around when they were trading blows. It was visibly clear with how they were smirking. It was only after Kefla got serious that Goku had to use kaioken, and still got knocked out with a single serious kick.
Click to expand...
You know that...goku after the cell saga got rid of his stamina drawback in his ssj, got calmer and much more powerful.
And it's literally in the name "a super saiyan god super saiyan "
It's either he transformed into a super saiyan god, then a super saiyan after it.
Or a super saiyan, then a super saiyan god after it.
If the latter is true it would be "super saiyan god on top of a super saiyan " not "super saiyan on top of a super saiyan "
His hair would be like his super saiyan form but red.
Every evidence,.the goddman name. The goddamn description.
Unless you want to say when he transforms into a super saiyan
god, he transforms into a different super saiyan, maybe super saiyan omega whatnot.
It's like ssbkk20.
He transforms into the god form, and ads a new form on top of it.
Hence the name "super saiyan god super saiyan " and not "super saiyan super saiyan god ".
It's on you to state something that the show agrees with. Why the hell do you think they give it that name, that description, the look.
They did it for fun I suppose.
It's a super saiyan god with super saiyan on top of it
The multiplier of super saiyan is 50x
So ssb Is 50x times ssg since it's a ssg with a super saiyan on top of it.
Nothing less, nothing more.
You are blatantly arguing against the feats, the statements, the lore, the intent of the writers, logic.
 
The name of anything is not enough evidence. We don't treat attack names to be literal. Same with transformations.
 
AKM sama said:
Again, simply saying a super saiyan version of SSG is not enough evidence for it to be EXACTLY like original super saiyan. SSB is a lot more calmer and comes with ki control, that lets Goku use kaioken. SSJ cannot do that. SSJ initially just came from rage, and then some S-cells bs. The whole concept of SSB is to not let the ki leak out of the body. Their entire training regime under Whis was different to achieve SSB. It's a god form only achieved through a specific means of training.

Both forms are fundamentally very different. With all these differences, why would a single statement about it being a super saiyan version of SSG be sufficient to grant the same multiplier as SSJ? That only means it's an upgrade and a level beyond SSG. Nothing about multiplier can be discerned from that statement.


Not really. Kefla and Goku were just playing around when they were trading blows. It was visibly clear with how they were smirking and their back and forth banter. It was only after Kefla got serious that Goku had to use kaioken, and still got knocked out with a single serious kick.
Click to expand...
"Why would a single statement...."
It's not like the statement came from the person who achieved the super saiyan, super saiyan god, super saiyan god super saiyan. Jot from the person who invented the technique, not the person who named the technique and explained it...oh wiat
It was actually from a completely unknown source ammirite
 
The source of the statement is completely irrelevant to my point.
 
AKM sama said:
The name of anything is not enough evidence. We don't treat attack names to be literal. Same with transformations.
Click to expand...
Ah, yes, because the name "super saiyan god super saiyan "
With the hair style of a super saiyan, with god ki and base state of a super saiyan god, with the description from the person who invented the form and invented it.
Your argument about names not meanings anything if they are flowery language
"Super saiyan god super saiyan " = a state which a saiyan turns into a super saiyan god, then he adds a super saiyan on top of it, hence the name super saiyan god super saiyan.
So statements from the person who invented it, feats, the goddamn name, the writers intent isn't enough
The name and the description is clearly wrong even tho it came from the person who invented and gave us the description is clearly wrong, yet some unknown wannabe is clearly right even their argument goes completely against everything is clearly right
 
AKM sama said:
The source of the statement is completely irrelevant to my point.
Click to expand...
Ah yes, because obviously the source isn't a valid argument, even the source who LITERALLY invented said form, experienced the form, gave us the description should totally not be trusted
 
I think I understand where the 160,000 comes from now. But it's head canon. We have no proof Vegito can go SSJ3 so saying Goku is stronger than SSJ3 Vegito and using that as a multiplier is bs.
 
DivineAura44 said:
I think I understand where the 160,000 comes from now. But it's head canon. We have no proof Vegito can go SSJ3 so saying Goku is stronger than SSJ3 Vegito and using that as a multiplier is bs.
Click to expand...
Considering the fact that Gotenks whose fusee can't even turn SSJ3 individually can go SSJ3 it takes more headcanon to assume that Vegito can't go SSJ3 .
 
DivineAura44 said:
Because Gotenks and Vegito have different capabilities. But if that's true why hasn't he gone?
Click to expand...
??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

He only appeared twice. In his first appearance he was already massively above Buuhan in his SSJ form and he actually wanted to get absorbed. So why should he go SSJ3?

Against Zamasu he had Blue which takes less Stamina and gives far more power
 
DBS Fusion and SSJ Speed Multipliers (Uses the forbidden SSJ2, 3, and Fusion Transformations)
Goku (RoF): 196 Quadrllion c
SSJ Goku (RoF Based): 9.8 Quintillion c
SSJ2 Goku (RoF Based): 19.6 Quintillion c
SSJ3 Goku (RoF Based): 78.4 Quintillion c
Base Vegito (RoF Based): 78.4 Quintillion c(likely higher)
SSJ Vegito: (RoF Based) 3.92 Sextillion c(likely higher)
SSG Goku: (RoF Based) 3.92 Sextillion c (likely far higher)
SSB Goku (RoF): 196 Sextillion c (likely far higher)
SSBKKX10 Goku (U6 Tournament): 1.96 Septillion c
Goku (Goku Black Saga): 1.96 Quintillion c
SSJ Goku (Goku Black Saga): 98 Quintillion c
SSJ2 Goku ( Goku Black Saga Based): 196 Quintillion c
SSJ3 Goku (Goku Black Saga Based): 784 Quintillion c
Base Vegito (Goku Black Saga ): 784 Quintillion c (likely higher)
SSJ Vegito: (Goku Black Saga Based) 39.2 Sextillion c (likely higher)
SSG Goku: (Goku Black Saga Based) 39.2 Sextillion c (likely far higher)
SSB Goku (Goku Black Saga): 1.96 Octillion c (likely far higher)
SSB Vegito (Goku Black Saga): 784 Octillion c (likely far higher)
From here the only important ones are Hit Rematch, KKX20 Goku, UI, and Post UI.
Hit Rematch Goku SSB: 1.96 Septillion (likely far higher)
SSBKKX20 Goku (TOP): 392 Septillion (likely far higher)
UI01/2 Goku: 392 Octillion c (likely far higher)
SSB Goku (Post UI02): 784 Octillion c (likely far higher)
SSBKKX20 Goku: 15.68 Nonillion c (likely far higher)
UIO3 Goku: 15.68 Nonillion c (likely far higher)
MUI Goku: 15.68 Nonillion c (likely far higher)




This is the true reason that they don't allow the Super Saiyan Multipliers lol.
 
SirAlex09 said:
??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

He only appeared twice. In his first appearance he was already massively above Buuhan in his SSJ form and he actually wanted to get absorbed. So why should he go SSJ3?

Against Zamasu he had Blue which takes less Stamina and gives far more power
Click to expand...
Why would he go SSJ but not SSJ3? He didn't need SSJ either so don't try to make that point.
 
DivineAura44 said:
Why would he go SSJ but not SSJ3? He didn't need SSJ either so don't try to make that point.
Click to expand...
We don't know if Base Vegito is stronger than Buuhan cause that fight was actually filler. In the manga he goes immediately SSJ Vegito and shitstomps him. He didn't need SSJ3 to beat him. He would have to hold back ( since he wanted to get absorbed) not to kill him and suffer from the Stamina drain at the same time. It wouldn't make any sense for him to go ssj 3
 
AKM sama said:
The source of the statement is completely irrelevant to my point.
Click to expand...
You first dismissed it by saying "it's just statements, not from the show"

And now when we showed you evidence that it works on the same way that we described it, then now it's still not enough? Despite literally everything explaining exactly how the form works, such as Gogeta (in DBFZ. Starts in 1:15) and Goku (in the link I just sent), the latter also is the first user of the form, and has named it "Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan", and not for nothing

Toriyama himself literally explain how SSB works and like Goku and Gogeta, said it's the result of a Super Saiyan God going Super Saiyan on top of it

Literally everything on the show elaborate that SSB is Super Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God, as well as being a Super Saiyan God that went Super Saiyan on top of it
 
SirAlex09 said:
We don't know if Base Vegito is stronger than Buuhan cause that fight was actually filler. In the manga he goes immediately SSJ Vegito and shitstomps him. He didn't need SSJ3 to beat him. He would have to hold back ( since he wanted to get absorbed) not to kill him and suffer from the Stamina drain at the same time. It wouldn't make any sense for him to go ssj 3
Click to expand...
I guess that is true. Too bad it doesn't proof your case.
 
DivineAura44 said:
It's literally the fifth form of mastery, and they been using it for years. THIS is headcanon.
Click to expand...
Not 5th Form of "mastery" but 5th grade of Super saiyan. Mastery was never implied. The grades are refering to power and not stamina.

And the years argument doesn't work because by the same logic Goku would have masterey over SSJ3 which he used for over a decade. But in ToP he states that it still drains his stamina to heavily
 
SirAlex09 said:
Not 5th Form of "mastery" but 5th grade of Super saiyan. Mastery was never implied. The grades are refering to power and not stamina.

And the years argument doesn't work because by the same logic Goku would have masterey over SSJ3 which he used for over a decade. But in ToP he states that it still drains his stamina to heavily
Click to expand...
But he doesn't use SSJ3. He uses SSJ2. Also every form from beginning to end has more mastery than the one before it.
 
AKM. The reason why Goku’s SSB is easier to control is because he’s incorporating God Ki into it. Adding God Ki doesn’t somehow dramatically decrease the multiplier.

As for Kefla, she was stomping SSG in base but equal to SSB in her SSJ form. You make the claim that she was playing around but that’s baseless. We know Kefla isn’t willing to hold back as she was literally having fun beating up Goku. Her suddenly hold back, mid fight, as her strength is dramatically increasing, doesn’t make any sense.

Stop making claims that are baseless AKM. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.



image0.jpg
 
Zamasu_Chan said:
AKM. The reason why Goku’s SSB is easier to control is because he’s incorporating God Ki into it. Adding God Ki doesn’t somehow dramatically decrease the multiplier.
Click to expand...
Proof of this claim is required. The fact that the God ki is incorporated makes it a different form than SSJ. And this does not counter other differences that the form itself is achieved through an entirely special and different type of training, is calmer, has better ki control, lets Goku use kaioken, doesn't let the ki flow out of the body. While it has substantially many differences than a normal SSJ, you just have one similarity, that is the name, and name isn't evidence. Neither for attacks, nor for transformations.

Zamasu_Chan said:
You make the claim that she was playing around but that’s baseless. We know Kefla isn’t willing to hold back as she was literally having fun beating up Goku. Her suddenly hold back, mid fight, as her strength is dramatically increasing, doesn’t make any sense.
Click to expand...
It's not baseless, you can blatantly see then smirking, exchanging banter, and having fun while exchanging blows. We know Kefla is willing to hold back because she did not instantly go SSJ, or SSJ2 to finish off Goku. Having fun beating someone up is exactly why a lot of characters in DB hold back. When she got serious, she finished Goku in one kick.

Zamasu_Chan said:
Stop making claims that are baseless AKM. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
Click to expand...
Exactly, and I don't see any extraordinary evidence of SSJB having the same power boost as SSJ. I am not the one making the positive claim.
 
Just a reminder that this thread is made to increase the speed of characters based on multipliers that we don't use. Why we don't use those multipliers is literally something that's not relevant here. The speeds are not going to change until the multipliers are accepted. So I will close this thread soon.
 
AKM sama said:
Exactly, and I don't see any extraordinary evidence of SSJB having the same power boost as SSJ. I am not the one making the positive claim.
Click to expand...
Except we already showed you evidence for it being stated to be this way. Both the show and Toriyama himself already clearly explained how Super Saiyan Blue works, and ESPECIALLY elaborated on how this is Super Saiyan with God ki applied, as well as being a Super Saiyan God that went SSJ on top of it

We already showed you the positives, and it's not just name. Goku named this form "Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan" because of how it works, and not the other way around.

Now it's your turn to show us proof to why this doesn't work in the show to support your claims
 
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Gilad_Hyperstar said:
Both the show and Toriyama himself already clearly explained how Super Saiyan Blue works, and ESPECIALLY elaborated on how this is Super Saiyan with God ki applied, as well as being a Super Saiyan God that went SSJ on top of it
Click to expand...
I don't have any major qualms with SSB being treated as SSG x50 personally. I am merely providing some legitimate counterarguments. I know what Goku, Vegeta and the promotional materials said about the form, and while that lets you interpret as it having the same boost, there are also many differences that can be brought up to show how different they are and hence shouldn't be assumed as the same boost. (Can you point me to the Toriyama statement again.)

Currently, it is not an accepted multiplier. So you'll have to get that accepted first before proposing any changes.

EDIT: Actually, you know what, I have been wanting to discuss this myself for some time as to why exactly it isn't accepted. So I'll whip up a thread on the topic soon.
 
Last edited:
AKM sama said:
I don't have any major qualms with SSB being treated as SSG x50 personally. I am merely providing some legitimate counterarguments.

Currently, it is not an accepted multiplier. So you'll have to get that accepted first before proposing any changes.
Click to expand...
I mean, you are a staff member in the wikia, and while maybe this would need more staff input, you can also evaluate it yourself to see if this should actually work based on the evidence from the show, and if not, then I would like to hear why with proof from the show to why the claim don't work
 
Gilad_Hyperstar said:
I mean, you are a staff member in the wikia, and while maybe this would need more staff input, you can also evaluate it yourself to see if this should actually work based on the evidence from the show
Click to expand...
Yeah but I cannot simply overturn something already accepted/rejected in the past on my own, without getting more staff input on it. I'll make a different thread for this purpose and see how the discussion goes.

I think we should close this thread in the meantime.
 
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