DBS Conservative Speed Multipliers (Remastered)

[Orange]

Because the statement was in the anime.

So we just have to do guess work instead if using statements.
I very much doubt toriyama or toie would state anything new about the cosmology, for all we know they think the statement in the daizenshu and anime would carry to dbs.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Goku did not fought equally with SSJ Kefla as SSB,

Yes he did.

he was pushed to SSBKK, and even afterwards, he was knocked out by a surprise kick from her, which was what triggered his second UI-sign

Kefla was getting stronger throughout the fight. Her ability to grow in strength is also much faster than Goku’s so no shit he had to rely on the kaioken. He was even momentarily overwhelming her with the Kaioken.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Yes he did.

Kefla was getting stronger throughout the fight. Her ability to grow in strength is also much faster than Goku’s so no shit he had to rely on the kaioken. He was even momentarily overwhelming her with the Kaioken.

Ok that does makes more sense. I'll concede on that

 

[AKM sama]

Kefla's SSJ is not the usual SSJ. It's green haired so some of it is from Kale too.

 

[Orange]

Kefla's SSJ is not the usual SSJ. It's green haired so some of it is from Kale too.

It's both I think? Like it has the power increase of kale, but the control of califula

 

[SirAlex09]

Kefla's SSJ is not the usual SSJ. It's green haired so some of it is from Kale too.

This would mean the multiplier is even higher than 50x

 

[Orange]

My Interpretation.
Goku base after T.o.p. : 1.96 quintillion.
(He got 10 times stronger after black saga, we don't count the other zenkai boosts since they are are hard to count actually)
Goku Ssj: his super saiyan multipliers is accepted, and is backed up by feats, statement etc.... it would give us: 98 quintillion.
I will ignore the ssj2,3, and god multipliers.
I will go straight to ssb: it's in.The name, it's ssg+ssj, ssj multiplier is accepted so I don't see why we shouldn't use it. It would give us 4900 quintillion, or 4.9 sixtillion.
Ssb10: is 49 sixtillion.
Ssb20 is : 980 sixtillion .
After his ui. His ssb is as strong as his ssb20 .
Which means his ssb is :980 sextillion
Ssb10 would give us: 9.8 septillion
Ssb20 would be : 196 septillion the speed of light

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

I laugh. I can’t wait to make my DBS speed blog.

 

[Dagoth_OwO]

I personally think SSJB should be accepted as SSJG x 50 since it's very evidently just SSJG turning Super Saiyan. This would obviously affect the scaling chain

 

[Orange]

It's like not accepting ssbkk10 or 20.
It's literally just super saiyan multiplier, with ssg.
This is beyond conservative.

 

[Orange]

I laugh. I can’t wait to make my DBS speed blog.

Oh, I bet you can't give them nonexisten speed

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Why aren’t the SSJ2 - SSJ3 multipliers used again?

 

[Orange]

Why aren’t the SSJ2 - SSJ3 multipliers used again?

"They aren't supported by evidence "

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

"They aren't supported by evidence "

I want an explaination to what contradicts these multipliers. Specifically, if a staff member would explain why it isn't accepted

 

[Orange]

I want an explaination to what contradicts these multipliers. Specifically, if a staff member would explain why it isn't accepted

You beat me to it.
Is anything wrong with my post btw?

 

[SirAlex09]

Correct me if I am wrong but isn't this wiki using Fan made multipliers for Gear 4 ?

I want an explaination to what contradicts these multipliers. Specifically, if a staff member would explain why it isn't accepted

I don't recall whom, but one guy said anything about avoiding Calc stacking


I think the SSJ2 multiplier is pretty consistent with the show . Cell was slightly stronger than SSJ Gohan but when the latter turned SSJ2 , Cell could no longer hurt him.
According to the Daizenshuu :

"Barrier
First Appearance: Chapter 367
Category: ki manipulation
People: Artificial Human No.17, Cell, Vegetto
Special Characteristics: A technique where they use ki to create a barrier around themselves, guarding against their opponents’ attacks. It can guard against ki attacks, as well as physical attacks such as missiles. What’s more, Vegetto succeeded in avoiding being absorbed by Majin Buu (evil). However, in order to use Barrier, they must constantly emit ki. In order to cancel out the physical attacks and ki attacks of their opponents, they must emit at least twice their opponents’ ki. It could be called natural for No.17, with his infinite energy generator, as well as perfect-form Cell, who took over that infinite energy generator, to be able use this technique. Also, you can understand how Vegetto, said to be the best in the universe in everything from the control of ki to ki strength, would be able to use it as well. However, it seems that this technique cannot guard against the attacks of those who have ki far stronger than one’s own. (Daizenshuu 4, p.113)"

While Barrier and skin strengthening isn't the same , it could be argued that Skin strengthening via Ki is a weaker version of the barrier since its simply a skin tight barrier that they can surpress and powerup. It follows the same principals

 

[Orange]

This could easily be explained by:
Gohan Was not at his full power because he was self doubting himself, he had an anger boost besides the ssj2 multiplier

It's only because Gohan jumps from High 4-C to 50x baseline 4-B in the Cell Saga, that's why it's contradicted.

And nothing else aside of that.

 

[BlastX]

I deleted my post cause I realized it sounded needlessly mean and probably ignore some other reasoning why they don't use them, my B

 

[Orange]

Don't sweat it too much

 

[AwkguyDB]

I also agree that the Blue multiplier should be accepted as SSG x SSJ

 

[Damage3245]

These seem like absurdly high multiplier values.

You'd think we'd need some kind of evidence that their speed is actually that high instead of stacking on multiplier after multiplier and not caring what the end result is.

 

[Orange]

These seem like absurdly high multiplier values.

You'd think we'd need some kind of evidence that their speed is actually that high instead of stacking on multiplier after multiplier and not caring what the end result is.

Oh yes, because obviously using established multiplier in the series, supported be feats and statements , using low end for the size of the macrocosm and the time frame, done by a person who is literally in the bottom line in the dbs scaling chain, while also ignoring multiple multipliers is definitely highballing

 

[AwkguyDB]

Oh yes, because obviously using established multiplier in the series, supported be feats and statements , using low end for the size of the macrocosm and the time frame, done by a person who is literally in the bottom line in the dbs scaling chain, while also ignoring multiple multipliers is definitely highballing

Literally agree 100% with this damn statement. You can’t do jack on the wiki without a mod literally coming up to you saying “no” and closing the thread even when you have substantial evidence to at least have a discussion

 

[Orange]

The only we are going to add is here ssb multiplier which is literally just ssj1 multipleier.
It's either you don't accept the ssb multiplier, resulting in being blatantly biased, or accept what's established in the lore, supported by dozens of statements, feats, scaling chains.
And the argument that the numbers are too high is stupid.
This is fiction, the very fact that you are presenting or even thinking if such argument to debunk calls ir feat is stupid on itself, "too hight" "too low" isn't an argument, it's the absence of it actually, unless you have a valid, conclusive, objective reason for the numbers being "to high " or "too low", then it doesn't fly,present evidence to support your claims

 

[SirAlex09]

These seem like absurdly high multiplier values.

You'd think we'd need some kind of evidence that their speed is actually that high instead of stacking on multiplier after multiplier and not caring what the end result is.

Both SSJ multipliers and Kaioken work by multiplying the base power level ( = Ki Level). This is backed up by Daizenshuu, scouters and Hit who said Goku's Ki increased 10 times.



Zamasu used the same phrasing when describing Super saiyan 2. He said "His Ki flared up tens of times".



Some people in this wiki argue power levels are not linear ( an Example that is often used : Karin stated in early Dragonball that Goku got dozens of times faster and stronger even though his powerlevel only jumped from 134 to 180 or the jump from country level to moon level with only a PL increase of 100 powerlevel units ) which is a fair point.

But it's a terrible counterargument against multipliers because it would actually suggest that multipliers are lowballing the characters rather than highballing them.

 

[Dagoth_OwO]

I would like to point out that AP stomps, speed blitzes and scaling chains are a crucial part of Dragon Ball. Even ignoring multipliers entirely won't change the fact that even Rof SSJB Goku is massively more powerful and faster than BoG Goku. The ToP alone is a testament to Goku's incredible adaptation as he went from being weaker than Future Trunks arc Vegito Blue to one shotting and blitzing every single God Tier of the Future Trunks arc and that was in 48 minutes lol. Even our current speed ratings for DBS are honestly still lowballing the sh*t out of their speed as Goku consistenly breaks his limit time and time again and keeps getting stronger and faster either via training, zenkais, or breaking his limits.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Sextillion c is a lowball? I wonder how fast they’d end up if we stacked every multiplier available

 

[SirAlex09]

Goku (RoF) - 196 Quadrillion c

SSJ Goku (RoF) - 9.8 Quintillion c

SSJ2 Goku (RoF) - 19.6 Quintillion c

SSJ3 Goku (RoF) - 78.4 Quintillion c

SSJ God Goku (RoF) - At least 31.36 Sextillion c, likely far higher

SSJ Blue Goku (RoF) - At least 1.568 Septillion c, likely far higher

SSJ Blue Kaioken x10 Goku (U6 Saga) - At least 15.68 Septillion c, likely far higher

Goku (End of Future Trunks Saga) - At least 1.96 Quintillion c

SSJ Goku (End of Future Trunks Saga) - At least 98 Quintillion c

SSJ2 Goku (End of Future Trunks Saga) - At least 196 Quintillion c

SSJ3 Goku (End of Future Trunks Saga) - At least 784 Quintillion c

SSJ God Goku (End of Future Trunks Saga) - At least 313.6 Sextillion c, likely far higher

SSJ Blue Goku (End of Future Trunks Saga) - At least 15.68 Septillion c, likely far higher

SSJ Blue Kaioken x20 Goku (End of Future Trunks Saga) - At least 313.6 Septillion c, likely far higher

Goku (Post-Ultra Instinct -Sign-) - At least 98 Quintillion c

SSJ Goku (Post-Ultra Instinct -Sign-) - At least 4.9 Sextillion c

SSJ2 Goku (Post-Ultra Instinct -Sign-) - At least 9.8 Sextillion c

SSJ3 Goku (Post-Ultra Instinct -Sign-) - At least 39.2 Sextillion c

SSJ God Goku (Post-Ultra Instinct -Sign-) - At least 15.68 Septillion c, likely far higher

SSJ Blue Goku (Post-Ultra Instinct -Sign-) - At least 78.4 Septillion c, likely far higher

SSJ Blue Kaioken x20 Goku (Post-Ultra Instinct -Sign-) - At least 15.68 Octillion c, likely far higher

Ultra Instinct Goku (Post-Ultra Instinct -Sign-) - At least 6.272 Decillion c, likely far higher

Notes​

• The 196 quadrillion c speed for Base Goku (RoF) is based on the accepted calculation for this feat.
• SSJ is officially a 50x multiplier in Daizenshuu and Super exciting guide, however more than that it is consistent with the showings in the manga as a 50x speed multiplier as well. Goku using Kaiokenx10 was being speed blitzed by 50% Frieza, and even Kaiokenx20 while using a kamehameha was at best equal to 50% Frieza's speed, yet using SSJ allowed Goku to speed blitz 50% Frieza, and even have an edge in speed over 100% Frieza, therefore it is highly consistent with the 50x multiplier assigned to it.
• SSJ2 & SSJ3 is officially 100x and 400x multipliers in the Super Exciting Guide
• Goku could barely keep up with Hit by the end of the U6 tournament even with SSBKKx10, yet defeated a Hit who was stated stronger in their second fight with SSJ Blue alone.
• Goku gained many substantial boosts from unquantifiable transformations, breaking his limits, constant battling and training. This is acknowledged in the "at least" and "likely far higher" additions.
• We use the Kaioken multipliers because they are explicitly stated to multiply speed and power by the number stated in the technique. This further extends to SSJ fra. We continue to use Kaioken multipliers in DBS as well as the SSJ multiplier.
• Vegito was stated to be greater than SSJ3, so Vegito's multiplier is at least 400x
• Goku stated that even fusion with Vegeta, he had no chance to fight against Beerus. So SSJ God's multiplier is at least 160,000x
• Super Saiyan Blue is a form that combines the power of Super Saiyan God with the first Super Saiyan form, so SSJ Blue's multiplier is at least 8,000,000x
• Gogeta can dodge Broly's attacks, so base Gogeta=SSJ Blue Goku/Vegeta

Btw Gogeta's multiplier is the same as Vegeto's. The fusions were stated to be equally good

 

[Orange]

Sextillion c is a lowball? I wonder how fast they’d end up if we stacked every multiplier available

Impossible speeds since they will break the impossible

 

[Dagoth_OwO]

Sextillion c is a lowball? I wonder how fast they’d end up if we stacked every multiplier available

Yep. Even our current speeds stats admit that they're "Likely far higher" which is true.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

I want an explaination to what contradicts these multipliers. Specifically, if a staff member would explain why it isn't accepted

Still want an explaination. And just dismissing it because "I don't like these numbers" is not an argument. I want an actual in-lore reasons why the multipliers are contradicted and we can't use them

 

[Orange]

Yep. Even our current speeds stats admit that they're "Likely far higher" which is true.

I don't know why they put "likely " they are actually, definitely, objectively higher

 

[Dagoth_OwO]

I don't know why they put "likely " they are actually, definitely, objectively higher

This is true, but for lowball's sake they are only rated "likely far higher".

 

[SirAlex09]

Still want an explaination. And just dismissing it because "I don't like these numbers" is not an argument. I want an actual in-lore reasons why the multipliers are contradicted and we can't use them

"Multipliers are great and all, but they should ideally be sustained with other kinds of supporting feats. Especially when the multipliers result in a jump from Relativistic to something like MFTL+.... "

That's kinda the main argument from Staff in the last CRT

 

[DivineAura44]

I want an explaination to what contradicts these multipliers. Specifically, if a staff member would explain why it isn't accepted

I made a CRT and it was just denied because of SSG, SSB, Kale, and Broly. Which is kinda bs to me. I see no contradiction for SSJ2 or SSJ3.

 

[Dagoth_OwO]

"Multipliers are great and all, but they should ideally be sustained with other kinds of supporting feats. Especially when the multipliers result in a jump from Relativistic to something like MFTL+.... "

That's kinda the main argument from Staff in the last CRT

I mean I don't think this is really applicable here since DBS actually has solid MFTL+ feats. Going from Quad c. to Sextillion c. is logical and consistent

 

[DivineAura44]

I mean I don't think this is really applicable here since DBS actually has solid MFTL+ feats. Going from Quad c. to Sextillion c. is logical and consistent

That sounds so wrong.

 

[Orange]

This is true, but for lowball's sake they are only rated "likely far higher".

Lowball? This is downplay

 

[Orange]

That sounds so wrong.

So is a lot of things

 

[SirAlex09]

I mean I don't think this is really applicable here since DBS actually has solid MFTL+ feats. Going from Quad c. to Sextillion c. is logical and consistent

They were mainly refering to DBZ. No one has solid MFTL feats there without Calc stacking. But still it takes more headcanon to ignore multipliers than to use them