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DB Chou Black Saga Scaling (Possible 3-B Upgrades)

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SD brought up some good points. If Rose isn't exactly like Blue then we can chalk up Zamasu's statement as something unreliable seeing as he shouldn't be a knowledgeable source when it comes to things related to saiyans. And it does cause some scaling issues.
 
@Spinoirr If you're talking to me: I'm not denying that, just that Rose isn't shown with the same issues as Blue did.
 
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Considering he had ssj hard to believe that's his version of ssj. It's probably his version of ssj blue
 
Also Goku and Vegeta got lot stronger from 3 years of training and probably have god ki in base thanks to dende who can sense god ki saying goku's base will take longer to heal thanks to reaching god levels of power also the rof movie is probably cannon as we see that rof is clearly cannon to the manga
 
Nullflowerblush said:
Goku was just that more powerful than Vegeta and Trunks in his base form; It's been stated and backed up numerous times that Super Saiyan Full Power is just vanilla Super Saiyan without the energy consumption and emotional turmoil. And, Gohan never said Goku barely said, from what I recall. He only commented on Goku when he was sitting down in Chapter 193, when he was contemplating about the ascended states of Super Saiyan.
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Im basing my argument on this scene



Gohan reaction and statements indicate goku barley trained.

Goku was weaker than vegeta before they entered the time chamber. The only difference is goku mastered ssj while vegeta didnt.

Mssj > ssj
 
Deako97 said:
Goku was weaker than vegeta before they entered the time chamber. The only difference is goku mastered ssj while vegeta didnt.

Mssj > ssj
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Goku was training with Gohan the entire time, when Vegeta chose to train on his own rather than with Trunks, and it was stated that when two saiyans train together (or anyone for that matter. Even Tagoma became very strong after the brutal training session with Frieza) their gains are much higher than if each of them would train on his own
 
Gilad_Hyperstar said:
Goku was training with Gohan the entire time, when Vegeta chose to train on his own rather than with Trunks, and it was stated that when two saiyans train together (or anyone for that matter. Even Tagoma became very strong after the brutal training session with Frieza) their gains are much higher than if each of them would train on his own
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Wtf are you talking about?? Its about the quality of the training that makes the user stronger. When was it stated their gains become higher when having a panther?

Goku could have mastered mssj on his own he didnt need gohan do help him just like he didnt need gohan to achieve ssj2 and ssj3. Same with vegeta

Whis points out to vegeta in episode 15 that the way he trains is not effienct unlike goku who doesnt just to physical training but mental/image training that helps with ki control
 
There are several statements from in-universe and databook sources that support the notion that SSJ Full Power is just regular SSJ but calmer, but that's off-topic.
 
I have a genuine question. If there’s no difference between the cosmology in toei and canon then why isn’t heaven treated at 3-A in size?
 
I think that is derailing the purpose of this thread. This thread was just to straighten out the scaling. Anyway, I agree with SD's assessment regarding this.
 
I heavily disagree with SSR not being equivalent to SSB. It's pretty much directly stated here. Even if you want to be extremely nitpicky about the statement, and just say that he merely said it's a form that surpasses SSG, well, that changes absolutely nothing. At worst it means that SSB > SSR > SSG. So it's still a comparable amp.
Black even ridiculed SSG later on when Vegeta used it against him as an inferior useless form.

Now, for the scaling. I'm not sure what the issue is. SSJ Black was matching SSJ Vegeta, then SSB Vegeta was casually thrashing him, then Zamasu healed Black. After healing, he received a Zenkai boost that allowed him to keep up with and overpower SSB Vegeta. It's pretty blatant. Black's base and SSJ forms are now 3-B.

Vegeta then trains in the ROSAT and matches Black later on. Since we already established that SSR is a greater boost than SSG at least, then that means that base and SSJ Vegeta is now 3-B as well.

Goku scaling is not an issue because

A) He was stronger than Vegeta at this point in general, and Vegeta only realized that when they fused.

B) Goku received random Zenkais all the time after battles that make him catch up to Vegeta immediately, regardless of how much training Vegeta did. Let's not pretend like this is anything new lol.

I think this is extremely straightforward, so let's not make it more complicated than it has to be.
 
SSR is kind of a strange case; going from SS2 to SSR appears to be an absurdly massive jump. He goes from being weaker than Goku and Vegeta's SS2 forms to being supposedly stronger than their SSB forms. And his Spirit Sword makes him arguably on par with SSB Vegito. As a transformation, it appears to be a bigger amp than SSB, but SSJ transformation amps are often too all over the place and non-linear to properly index yes.
 
@DDM we're talking about Rose not Rage.

@UchihaSlayer96 like I said above, I'm not saying Goku Black is lying or anything, just that it doesn't work exactly the same.

How is the scaling a non-issue? If Goku's base this entire time is > Vegeta's post-training, then that means Goku SSJ should be equal or stronger than SSJB Vegeta the entire time. It's absurd considering they were fighting evenly alongside each other against Black just a few pages before.

What zenkai? Goku wasn't in near-death during the Fused Zamas fight (unless you really want to argue that Goku could kill Black and Crew before), he got healed by Trunks yes, but he was pretty clearly still capable of fighting in base.
 
SomebodyData said:
like I said above, I'm not saying Goku Black is lying or anything, just that it doesn't work exactly the same.
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If you don't mind my asking, how do they work differently?


SomebodyData said:
How is the scaling a non-issue? If Goku's base this entire time is > Vegeta's post-training, then that means Goku SSJ should be equal or stronger than SSJB Vegeta the entire time. It's absurd considering they were fighting evenly alongside each other against Black just a few pages before.
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Sorry, I could've definitely worded myself better. What I meant to say, is that Goku was stronger than Vegeta by an unquantifiable amount, until the final fight that is. That's the point when the gap was made very apparent by Goku's performance against Fused Zamasu.

So, they were more or less comparable at first (with Goku withholding his ability to use CSSB obviously). Then, they went back in time, Vegeta trained in the ROSAT and Goku trained to learn the Mafuba. Then they went back, fought the two Zamasus, and then got thrashed by Fused Zamasu. That is to say, there was a few points where Goku could've gotten a power up. More on that next.


SomebodyData said:
What zenkai? Goku wasn't in near-death during the Fused Zamas fight (unless you really want to argue that Goku could kill Black and Crew before), he got healed by Trunks yes, but he was pretty clearly still capable of fighting in base.
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Look, Zenkais don't ALWAYS happen when a Saiyan is about to die. I mean, look no further than the ToP in the anime and how many absurd jumps in power it gave Goku for literally no reason. I mean, hell, Black himself received the very same zenkai that took him to SSB tier even though he wasn't near death at all. He wasn't even really damaged THAT badly.
So, no, Goku getting healed by Trunks giving him a massive boost is not out of the question imo. Especially when it happened in the very same arc, using Goku's own body no less (talking about Black here).

Let's not pretend that Zenkai are a consistent thing with solid criteria either lol. It always has been a simple plot device to explain away absurd power ups, and it's not surprising to me that it still is.

All in all, I think there isn't enough reasons to dismiss their feats. I'm basically just saying, it's DB and shit happens lol.
 
Well for one, Rose pretty clearly lacks the stamina issue of Blue or his hair color change. Again, it's Black's version of Blue, but it doesn't function the exact same.

ToP explains that under breaking their limits and UI growing stronger (and by extension, base) each usage. I'm not sure when zenkais happened in the ToP. Goku Black needed to be healed to continue fighting, I'd say that implies quite a bit of damage.

I'm not necessitating that zenkais are consistent, I'm saying it never happened for Goku here. Vegeta pretty explicitly says that Goku has the best chance because of CSSJB, not a zenkai.
 
SomebodyData said:
Well for one, Rose pretty clearly lacks the stamina issue of Blue or his hair color change. Again, it's Black's version of Blue, but it doesn't function the exact same.
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I'm not sure how this would change that SSR > SSG, so even if you don't agree with it being exactly like SSB it should still be in the same ballpark power wise.

SomebodyData said:
ToP explains that under breaking their limits and UI growing stronger (and by extension, base) each usage. I'm not sure when zenkais happened in the ToP. Goku Black needed to be healed to continue fighting, I'd say that implies quite a bit of damage.
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Goku needed to be healed as well. He was beaten, out of energy, and couldn't access his full power. If he didn't require to be healed, then the whole plotline of Trunk only being able to heal one of the two would be pointless if Goku could've done without it.

SomebodyData said:
I'm not necessitating that zenkais are consistent, I'm saying it never happened for Goku here. Vegeta pretty explicitly says that Goku has the best chance because of CSSJB, not a zenkai.
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Yes, CSSB was the main thing, but that doesn't necessarily go against him gaining a Zenkai, unless Fusion Zamasu is only 10x stronger than Black. I guess there's technically nothing going against that, so it kinda works, especially because Vegeta also managed to obliterate Fusion Zamasu with the Gamma Burst Flash.
 
It means we shouldn't assume to know the multiplier of the form or if it's comparable in scope.

He couldn't access his full power but was still fighting Fused Zamas even before Trunks healed him.

Vegeta also explicitly says he realized it when he fused with Goku (so before any Zenkai you speak of) in the same panel. It's pretty clear no zenkai was involved or intended.
 
SomebodyData said:
It means we shouldn't assume to know the multiplier of the form or if it's comparable in scope.
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We're not assuming anything, the form has literally been stated to be superior to SSG twice....

SomebodyData said:
He couldn't access his full power but was still fighting Fused Zamas even before Trunks healed him.
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He was getting rag dolled and beaten around, unless you want to tell me base Goku scales to Fused Zamasu.

SomebodyData said:
Vegeta also explicitly says he realized it when he fused with Goku (so before any Zenkai you speak of) in the same panel. It's pretty clear no zenkai was involved or intended.
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Look, just before we lose sight of why this conversation started in the first place lol. I said there's no issue with the base Saiyans scaling to 3-B, you said Goku getting that much stronger without training makes no sense (a bit of paraphrasing, but I think that was the jist of your issues with Goku scaling), and then we started arguing about Zenkais.
My point is that you can use this instance of Goku getting healed to extrapolate an implied Zenkai for Goku to explain the power jump. In any case, the feats are there. The only way Goku and Vegeta don't scale is if Black doesn't scale to SSB in SSJ.
 
Oh yeah, I'm also unsure about Super Saiyan Rose; that seems like that's is own thing.
 
Even without comparing Rosé's multiplier to Blue, if Goku Black in Super Saiyan is more powerful than pre-RoSaT Super Saiyan God Vegeta, that means his base is 3-B, considering how far Goku and Vegeta's God forms are into 3-B at this point and how meager of a multiplier Super Saiyan is.

Post-RoSaT Super Saiyan God Vegeta is shown to be perfectly fine keeping up with and defending against Super Saiyan Rosé Goku Black, with Rosé being superior to God, only using Super Saiyan Blue when he attacks Black.

So, Black's base is 3-B, his Super Saiyan form is 3-B, and his Super Saiyan Rosé form is 3-B. Vegeta, despite being in an inferior form (SS God < SS Rosé), kept up with him, which would mean his base is also 3-B.
 
I don't know about the second time, but the first time he said it was in reference to the fact that Vegeta had a superior form to use (SSJB), not in comparison to Rose.

I'm not. Just that he is clearly not on death's door for the zenkai to occur.

Vegeta states it here. Like I said, pretty straightforward with no implication of zenkai.

Final nail in the coffin.

@Null you using this statement as proof or another one?

Like I brought up in the beginning, that scaling means base Goku (the entire time) could one fight on par with SSJB Vegeta. It seems more like Rose's multiplier isn't that high, even though it's a variation of Blue, instead similar in that it provides God Ki.

EDIT: This what you guys are talking about? Immediately after Black says this, Vegeta still thinks he can fight Black. Goku also thinks they could stand a chance if they worked together, though Vegeta shoots down the idea. Assuming Rose really had even a tenth of the multiplier of SSJG, this would be a completely different convo.
 
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The panel alone helps support your position, but when you add the next panels, well: Vegeta still thinks he can fight Goku Black Rose (Of course its Vegeta), but Goku suggests working as a team would work, so clearly he isn't so far removed from their previous power level.

Heck, Vegeta was more concerned about the reviving and powering up problem.
 
Well, this seems to be concluded. SD made a lot of sense and I am inclined to agree with him.
 
So what is left to do here?
 
Has what was agreed here been applied?
 
This was rejected. Nothing here to be applied.
 
Okay. I will close this then.
 
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