Darkest Dungeon Revision

[EliminatorVenom]

I decided to stop being lazy and finally get around revising Darkest Dungeon. It should be a short CRT, but it changes a lot of stuff, so this might require a lot of discussion. In any case, I'm proposing a massive downgrade for most of DD, as I think the ratings are wrong.

Let's examine the feats and calculations that are used to rate the characters, and some possible alternatives.

Treebanch Smackdown & Swine King Cleaver
I'm personally fine with the calcs. The only thing I'd mention is that the timeframe for the strikes to happen, and thus the speed, isn't straightforward. If we applied the timeframe logic to DD profiles, which I'm neutral on, all attacks in-game would follow the same speed or cover the same period of time, with bigger weapons having inflated speeds, when game mechanics clearly show this not to be the case, with Hit/Miss chances & the speed atribute being a good measure of showing that. Treebanch Smackdown would be a notoriously slow attack, considering its low hit chance. A simple interpretation that would make the feats stay consistent would be to consider that the speeds, derived from the game FPS, are just a minimum rather than the exact number. In any case, this is the least problematic aspect of the game, and something it's easy to take into account.

The problem resides in the other things.

Light Dodging
Alright, I really don't get this. The light attacks in Darkest Dungeon clearly aren't real light, nor are the lightning bolts summoned by the Vestal true lightning.

It doesn't behave like real light (There's maybe one or two light attacks that do work like a flashbang, but that's it) and it is expressly magical in nature. The lightning bolt similarly does not function like actual electricity and is also expressly magical in nature, and even worse, it can't even be argued to be cloud-to-ground. The bolts continue working normally even underground, in places that there would be no way for a cloud to even exist in. (Ruins, Darkest Dungeon) In fact, as the game is a turn-based RPG, we need to consider the possibility of aim-dodging for any and all attacks. Not consider it as certainly to be aim-dodging, of course, but to take into account that it is a possibility, and judge things from there. The only light source that I can think being really lightspeed, which is the Bounty Hunter's flashbang, can easily be seen as blocked by someone who saw the flashbang being thrown, not after it already exploded, as the Bounty Hunter throws it directly against people.

Another thing to note is when you compare these feats to practically any other speed feat in the game, they stick out as being particularly high speed. Through the entire game, people face things of roughly similar speed: Musket and flintlock shots, crossbow bolts, sound waves, cannon fire, all of that from multiple enemies. I can't even provide examples of specific enemies because they are all over the place, both from heroes and from monsters. Most of the feats are in the Supersonic/Transonic range or lower, with the supposed lightning bolts and light feats sticking out.

Small Town - The Sleeper Awakens
That also confuses me a lot. Why the cave being destroyed accepted as the true result of the fight? I don't deny that it is a possibility, but I don't see it as what truly happened.

I mean, watch the moment this happens. It could be the cave was destroyed. It could also be it warped severely the place to somewhere else to or to something else, which would be consistent with the themes of the Sleeper warping space and time to ridiculous degrees. It could be something else entirely.

Even if we assumed destruction, again, I'd be hesitant to scale that to the thing's AP or to anything else. Not only it is an exceptionally great feat compared to everything else (Which might be valid anyway, as it is an EoG party with few feats that they'd scale to), but it could be environmental destruction, or that the destruction happened because the environment relied on it being in that specific form, similar to how a much larger structure might break down if a specific support changes position or breaks down.

Some Alternatives
So, this would require a lot more discussion and cooperation between interested people, but there are some feats that come to mind that might be better for scaling.

• For speed in general, a lot of enemies and characters use sound-based attacks (Hellion's Barbarian YAWP!; all of Swine Drummer's techniques, Ghoul's Howl, all of the Madman's techniques, all of the Squiffy Ghost's techniques), crossbow shots (Bone Arbalist's Quarrel, most of the Arbalest's techniques), musket & flintlock shots (Brigand Fusilier's techniques, Brigand Bloodletter's Point Blank Shot, Esquire's Ribcracker, most of the Musketeer's techniques, half ot the Highwayman's techniques), whip strikes (Brigand Bloodletter's Rain of Whips & Punishment) and cannon shots (Brigand Pounder's fire), and anyone can dodge those even at melee range. And I'm sure I'm missing a few of them, even, as I still need to check out the bosses, some enemies and the heroes.
• The most notable feat, speed-wise, would probably be that anyone can somewhat consistently dodge point-blank shots from Brigand Bloodletter's and Highwaymen, at least from lower-leveled ones.
• In AP/Durability from the high tiers, the only feat that I think might be applicable is that the Sleeper arrived on earth through a meteor that wrecked the mill. Since you manage to break it during the boss fight, you probably scale to it. There might be other things of value to look into, such as the energy value of destroying the Garden Guardian, and the joules output of 8, 12 and 16 pounder cannons. Only midgame to lategame characters would probably scale well to the earlier poundage, and the 16-pounder would only scale to lategame characters with strong defensive capabilities.

I could probably structure this better and this does deserve something much better written, but it ought to suffice for now.

 

[Armorchompy]

Following. The 16-pounder is only 9-B by the way, if I remember correctly

 

[EliminatorVenom]

Oof, I thought the 16 pounder could reach 9-A...

 

[Armorchompy]

I might be wrong there for the record

Anyway I agree with the light stuff and generally the 9-A feat too, haven't played the DLC so I wouldn't know for the tier 7 stuff

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I'd like to note that while I am a supporter of the verse now and have played the game quite a bit, I knew fuckall about the verse when I made the calcs.

I'll get to an actual response later.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Alright:

I agree that the timeframe may be fucky. I also agree the Low 7-C is likely a warp or some feat of reality warping. The most impressive feat is likely busting the Sleeper due to the aforementioned descent via meteor, which we can probably calc.

 

[EliminatorVenom]

Great!

Another thing I'd like to comment on is how it is common to associate the light of DD as true light as it does generate torchlight by game mechanics. No one here has commented it and I don't expect to, but just in case...

Ignoring that many of the light-based attacks do not do that, it is the same thing as lighting a lamp and throwing the lamp to smack enemies. The lamp emits light, but isn't lightspeed itself. Also, it really feels like light attacks leave a light aura around the party for some time or something, because when you think about it, a flash of light does not stay illuminating a place for any decent amount of time unless it is sustained, which it clearly isn't.

 

[Armorchompy]

I mean generally it doesn't fit enough of our requirements I think

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I'd be less enthusiastic about ignoring those. I feel the aura argument requires us to accept game mechanics here where we would normally not. In my view, they are attacked with genuine, light-based attacks, and are able to dodge them. We could try to assume details beyond this to invalidate them, but I believe they're fine.

 

[Armorchompy]

Just being made of light is not enough by our standards though

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Just being made of light is not enough by our standards though

Are you referring to laser beam standards?

 

[DaReaperMan]

Are you referring to laser beam standards?

Yes

 

[Armorchompy]

Are you referring to laser beam standards?

they apply to all light attacks but yeah

 

[EliminatorVenom]

I'd be less enthusiastic about ignoring those. I feel the aura argument requires us to accept game mechanics here where we would normally not. In my view, they are attacked with genuine, light-based attacks, and are able to dodge them. We could try to assume details beyond this to invalidate them, but I believe they're fine.

Oh, I'm not saying it is aura - it's just that generating torchlight for a longer period of time wouldn't be a feat that indicates lightspeed. A laser beam in real life, moving at the speed of light, does not produce any sort of lingering light. Now, wielding a lamp with limited energy supply that slowly drains will, similarly to the torchlight mechanic. What I meant about "ignoring these", it is just that, even if we accepted the torchlight producing effect as an effect of something that behaves like real light, there are only a handful (I think two or three) light-based moves that do that.

Eh, I really don't think so. The light is clearly magical in nature, and aside from being called light, it really doesn't conform to any of our standards, as far as I remember. And again, it contrasts with any other kind of speed feat in-game.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I was confirming.

Okay, I assume there is no issue with stating this is actual light. We all seem to be in agreement regarding this.

The issue is that it generates torchlight, according to Venom, and doesn't follow standards, for Armor. I don't know which standard he believes it violates so I would like that clarified.

As for Venom: this is not a laser beam. Or, more accurately, due to the nature of the game, we cannot assume it is. What we know: they have some form of ranged attack, made of light, that they can dodge. I don't think comparing it to a lamp is really valid, even if it does interact with the light level game mechanic. If the argument is changing to "this is not light at all", then that's a different horse entirely.

 

[Armorchompy]

Our standards extend to generic "light" attacks, not just lasers. And "It is stated to be composed/consisting of photons or light itself, again by a reliable source." is only one of the standards to meet, which by itself isn't enough, and as far as I know it's the only one it meets. Considering how characters can mostly reliably be tagged by fairly mundane bullets/arrows I think applying that sort of scrutiny makes a lot of sense even more than usual.

For the record I think it can be argued that just being stated to be Light doesn't qualify for being made of light considering The Light is like, specifically a divine entity with that name but I don't really care for that, it could really be either way.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Right, I was simply clarifying if you were referring to those rules rather than others I may have been unaware of, as you did not name those specifically. I'm aware of that rule page, Armor.

If the argument is being reverted to "this is some sort of quasi-light since it is made by magic and shit" then yeah, I think that's a more reasonable approach.

 

[Armorchompy]

Right, I was simply clarifying if you were referring to those rules rather than others I may have been unaware of, as you did not name those specifically. I'm aware of that rule page, Armor.

Just wanted to make sure I wasn't misinterpreted

If the argument is being reverted to "this is some sort of quasi-light since it is made by magic and shit" then yeah, I think that's a more reasonable approach.

I mean, even if it was real 100% certified fresh light, that's not enough to qualify for our light speed standards.

 

[Abstractions]

Treebanch Smackdown & Swine King Cleaver
I'm personally fine with the calcs. The only thing I'd mention is that the timeframe for the strikes to happen, and thus the speed, isn't straightforward. If we applied the timeframe logic to DD profiles, which I'm neutral on, all attacks in-game would follow the same speed or cover the same period of time, with bigger weapons having inflated speeds, when game mechanics clearly show this not to be the case, with Hit/Miss chances & the speed atribute being a good measure of showing that. Treebanch Smackdown would be a notoriously slow attack, considering its low hit chance. A simple interpretation that would make the feats stay consistent would be to consider that the speeds, derived from the game FPS, are just a minimum rather than the exact number. In any case, this is the least problematic aspect of the game, and something it's easy to take into account.

The problem resides in the other things.

I'll note first and foremost that I am a supporter of these feats, but I want you to understand that introducing these hit chances into the equation has the potential to push these things further, which is possibly dangerous as it could inflate ratings, and I'll start with a small example (I will be using Apprentice speeds and Tier 1 class abilities to be consistent here):

The Bone Arbalest using Quarrel (firing an arrow from a crossbow) has an accuracy of 82.5%, the Brigand Pounder firing a cannonball with BOOM has the same accuracy. These things according to Google, have a speed of 300 feet per second and 820 feet per second respectively.

The most basic move from a class like the Hellion has an accuracy of 85%, including Breakthrough, which is the Hellion charging through the enemy party.

How does this relate to the calculation though you'd ask? The Swine Prince/King's attacks that don't include mindless flailing such as Enraged Destruction and Obliterate Masses have an accuracy of 92.5% and 102.5% respectively.

For speed in general, a lot of enemies and characters use sound-based attacks (Hellion's Barbarian YAWP!; all of Swine Drummer's techniques, Ghoul's Howl, all of the Madman's techniques, all of the Squiffy Ghost's techniques),

For reference, Hellion's YAWP! has an accuracy of 95% at base and Man-at-Arms' Bellow has an accuracy of 90%. The Ghoul, a Veteran class enemy, has an accuracy of 92.5% with Howl, on par or still less than the Swine King's Apprentice level moves.

Other classes also have higher accuracy moves at base, such as Grave Robber's Poison Darts with an accuracy of 95%.

The timeframes as they are don't seem like a big deal to me, even if we acknowledge the Giant as slower because with the logic you are using the Swine King should be ridiculously fast anyway.

Oh, I'm not saying it is aura - it's just that generating torchlight for a longer period of time wouldn't be a feat that indicates lightspeed.

Only thing I'd say about this is that moves like Illumination don't generate torchlight for a longer period of time, in fact they generate so little at base that advancing to a new tile is enough to diffuse the light it had provided, it provides so little that it cannot even increase light stages for you without multiple uses.

Not that this is fully important, but just wanted to point this out.

@Wokistan might have things to add here, so I'll ping them.

 

[EliminatorVenom]

As for Venom: this is not a laser beam. Or, more accurately, due to the nature of the game, we cannot assume it is. What we know: they have some form of ranged attack, made of light, that they can dodge. I don't think comparing it to a lamp is really valid, even if it does interact with the light level game mechanic. If the argument is changing to "this is not light at all", then that's a different horse entirely.

I mostly used it as an example. We know that it is light or at least a light-based thing - but for the amount of evidence we have, it could be either a lightspeed thing, like a laser beam, or be just something that is made out of/contains light and moves at completely different speeds, and there's no indication to what is right.

I'll note first and foremost that I am a supporter of these feats, but I want you to understand that introducing these hit chances into the equation has the potential to push these things further, which is possibly dangerous as it could inflate ratings, and I'll start with a small example (I will be using Apprentice speeds and Tier 1 class abilities to be consistent here):

The Bone Arbalest using Quarrel (firing an arrow from a crossbow) has an accuracy of 82.5%, the Brigand Pounder firing a cannonball with BOOM has the same accuracy. These things according to Google, have a speed of 300 feet per second and 820 feet per second respectively.

The most basic move from a class like the Hellion has an accuracy of 85%, including Breakthrough, which is the Hellion charging through the enemy party.

How does this relate to the calculation though you'd ask? The Swine Prince/King's attacks that don't include mindless flailing such as Enraged Destruction and Obliterate Masses have an accuracy of 92.5% and 102.5% respectively.

For reference, Hellion's YAWP! has an accuracy of 95% at base and Man-at-Arms' Bellow has an accuracy of 90%. The Ghoul, a Veteran class enemy, has an accuracy of 92.5% with Howl, on par or still less than the Swine King's Apprentice level moves.

Other classes also have higher accuracy moves at base, such as Grave Robber's Poison Darts with an accuracy of 95%.

The timeframes as they are don't seem like a big deal to me, even if we acknowledge the Giant as slower because with the logic you are using the Swine King should be ridiculously fast anyway.

Excellent points! As I said, (Or at least meant to say, my english slips a bit at times) that's the thing I find the least objection to, and personally I'm fine that these ratings stay. I wanted to clarify some bits, but it's good to have some confirmation on validity.

Only thing I'd say about this is that moves like Illumination don't generate torchlight for a longer period of time, in fact they generate so little at base that advancing to a new tile is enough to diffuse the light it had provided, it provides so little that it cannot even increase light stages for you without multiple uses.

Not that this is fully important, but just wanted to point this out.

Fair enough, although I'd point out two things:

1. That even something that lasted a single second would be far too long for light to "stay" in the ambiance while people still moved. Well, assuming normal movement speed, of course. I mean, you can flip off the light switch in your room, and I don't think you can move a single step as the light "dims" from the place.
2. Dungeon movement is a very representative thing, and not a good example for durations of time, as it is implied that several hours pass each time you visit a dungeon, and the "short" duration is mostly a thing for game convenience, so even a single tile could represent a longer distance than the few seconds the player takes to cross them. Proof to this is how often your adventurers need to eat rations, how you can sleep and the fact that an entire combat can go without wasting a single point of torchlight, while moving in tiles waste quite a lot, when it is shown in combat that their movement speed isn't so lower than their combat/reactions that they would be in slow motion to each other.

 

[Armorchompy]

bwup

 

[EliminatorVenom]

Bump indeed.

I've been looking at the profiles, and I think they could have some additions.

• The Crusader should have Holy Manipulation, for example, as that is the whole point of his extra damage against the unholy. There's a lot more powers that can be added, but before I list them, I ought to know if the following is allowed:
• I'm pretty sure the LS of all protagonists should be at least Class 1 or 5-ish, they are roughly comparable, (I mean, of course, some are way weaker but not to the point that one can ragdoll the other) and the characters can do things such as pull and push enemies (Through moves such as Bounty Hunter's Come Hither and Occultist's Daemon Pull) as heavy and massive as the Swine Prince, Bone Captains and Brigand Pounder and resist such pulls. (Butcher's Circus show that they scale to each other, and they can resist move skills of similar caliber by monsters) Here's an explanation in Moving.
  In fact, going into more detail, I'll make it clear that pushing the Swine Prince is very hard, even with the help of items. If we considered enemies that would be more feasibly pushed and moved around, there are: Brigand Bloodletters, massive men that are easily twice a man's height and many times a man's weight; Gargoyles, who are made out of solid stone and are human-sized; Plow Horses, who are basically undead, crystal-filled horses; and the Crocodilian, who is a massive, mutated abomination of a crocodile.
• All characters should get Preparation, that's the entire point of items and camp skills. Besides, camp skills should be noted in the profile as well, and I think that, on the very least, unique equipment pieces should be noted as well.
• Which brings me to another point: Should the powers gained by items be noted? And what about the Crimson Curse, who changes the entire character quite significantly?
• Also, should we consider the Butcher Circus' variants? Many powers have added functionalities in the Butcher's Circus.

 

[Armorchompy]

Some of the older DD profiles are a little lacking yeah. I do think we include Butcher's Circus abilities in the profiles, same things for equipment but I'm not sure about consumables, although obviously we should. I think LS stuff is fine too

 

[Shmooply]

I am very embarassed that it took me almost two months to notice that this thread existed. I'll take a look at the additions soon.

 

[Abstractions]

The Crusader should have Holy Manipulation, for example, as that is the whole point of his extra damage against the unholy. There's a lot more powers that can be added, but before I list them, I ought to know if the following is allowed:

The profiles as a whole can be reworked, with my Bounty Hunter page as a benchmark for this.

I'm pretty sure the LS of all protagonists should be at least Class 1 or 5-ish, they are roughly comparable, (I mean, of course, some are way weaker but not to the point that one can ragdoll the other) and the characters can do things such as pull and push enemies (Through moves such as Bounty Hunter's Come Hither and Occultist's Daemon Pull) as heavy and massive as the Swine Prince, Bone Captains and Brigand Pounder and resist such pulls.

Pulling Bone Captains and whatnot can still be done, even if they have high move resist, I did account for this when I made my BH page.

Sure you could say it is difficult, but the point is that it can be done, without items even, Swine Prince at base has 100% move resist and Come Hither after one upgrade is 110%.

Also, should we consider the Butcher Circus' variants? Many powers have added functionalities in the Butcher's Circus.

I didn't add power changes because it technically is a deviation from the main game, but I did add the items, so discussion on that can be had, sure.

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

IIRC even random normal encounters can prove extremely challenging and potentially fatal (In canon) correct?

 

[Armorchompy]

The profiles as a whole can be reworked, with my Bounty Hunter page as a benchmark for this.

Do you think you could like, put down a skeleton of P&A every single character would have in a sandbox? That'd be really helpful for making new profiles or revising old ones.

IIRC even random normal encounters can prove extremely challenging and potentially fatal (In canon) correct?

Yeah, I believe enemies might scale to the PCs here

 

[EliminatorVenom]

IIRC even random normal encounters can prove extremely challenging and potentially fatal (In canon) correct?

Yes. In general the protagonists are superior to random enemies, of course, but not greatly so.

The profiles as a whole can be reworked, with my Bounty Hunter page as a benchmark for this.

Oop, I missed that one! Eyup, I agree with using it as the basis. It is extremely well done.

Pulling Bone Captains and whatnot can still be done, even if they have high move resist, I did account for this when I made my BH page.

Sure you could say it is difficult, but the point is that it can be done, without items even, Swine Prince at base has 100% move resist and Come Hither after one upgrade is 110%.

Oh yeah, I'm in approval of scaling them. I commented it was difficult just to make it clear.

I didn't add power changes because it technically is a deviation from the main game, but I did add the items, so discussion on that can be had, sure.

Okie-dokie.

I'm of opinion that the Butcher's Circus stuff should be allowed. While I don't quite think stuff there is canon, (Or at least, not with enough evidence to take any conclusions from it) it's still part of the game and has no contradictions, really.

 

[Abstractions]

Do you think you could like, put down a skeleton of P&A every single character would have in a sandbox? That'd be really helpful for making new profiles or revising old ones.

I could probably get to this sometime in the next few days, I'm assuming we aren't in any rush currently granted how long we've waited on this already? I just have preparations to make for Halloween, etc.

I could even do physical revisions myself and put them up for viewing at a later date to save others trouble, I know there's a bit of searching involved in the process.

I'm of opinion that the Butcher's Circus stuff should be allowed. While I don't quite think stuff there is canon, (Or at least, not with enough evidence to take any conclusions from it) it's still part of the game and has no contradictions, really.

I'm fine with it existing because the stuff is specifically versus catered compared to the main material, so there's really nothing wrong with the trinkets being on the pages.

 

[Armorchompy]

Yeah we're definitely not in a rush LOL

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

Yeah, I believe enemies might scale to the PCs here

Yeah I was hesitant on just scaling PCs to just bosses (Like in most RPGs) since DD is all about people dying and getting replaced even if it's to just complete one dungeon.

Yes. In general the protagonists are superior to random enemies, of course, but not greatly so.

Pretty much, it's quite refreshing theres barely any "cannon fodder" enemies in DD as most of them pose a very real threat and the game does stress that even tho PCs are superior to randoms one mistake can pretty much turn the tables of an entire battle.

 

[Armorchompy]

Yeah I was hesitant on just scaling PCs to just bosses (Like in most RPGs) since DD is all about people dying and getting replaced even if it's to just complete one dungeon.

Yeah, although I am a little hesitant on scaling non-DD (place) random enemies to the endgame key

 

[Abstractions]

Yeah I was hesitant on just scaling PCs to just bosses (Like in most RPGs) since DD is all about people dying and getting replaced even if it's to just complete one dungeon.

Pretty much, it's quite refreshing theres barely any "cannon fodder" enemies in DD as most of them pose a very real threat and the game does stress that even tho PCs are superior to randoms one mistake can pretty much turn the tables of an entire battle.

People are replaceable, yes, but in the instance of Bloodmoon there are physical restrictions on this because losing too many will lead either to the end of the game or not being able to complete it because you will lose two at the end with certainty, so the characters should be considered still above par compared to the monsters they face, so I'd be fine with enemies downscaling a bit from the cast.

Yeah, although I am a little hesitant on scaling non-DD (place) random enemies to the endgame key

I wouldn't do this, no.

 

[Armorchompy]

I wouldn't do this, no.

Just to be sure are you fine with scaling random enemies from the Darkest Dungeon to the end-game rating?

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

Yeah, although I am a little hesitant on scaling non-DD (place) random enemies to the endgame key

The endgame PCs should only really scale to the cosmic horrors tbh but against mid to early game PCs, the regular enemies should definitely downscale from them.

People are replaceable, yes, but in the instance of Bloodmoon there are physical restrictions on this because losing too many will lead either to the end of the game or not being able to complete it because you will lose two at the end with certainty, so the characters should be considered still above par compared to the monsters they face, so I'd be fine with enemies downscaling a bit from the cast.

Ah... gotcha (I keep forgetting we also factor in difficulty settings too).

 

[Abstractions]

Just to be sure are you fine with scaling random enemies from the Darkest Dungeon to the end-game rating?

This should probably be okay, if regular mobs downscale from the Early Game key, they can downscale from the Late Game key, with exceptions to things like the Mammoth Cyst and Shuffling Horror scaling 100%.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Bump indeed.

I've been looking at the profiles, and I think they could have some additions.

• The Crusader should have Holy Manipulation, for example, as that is the whole point of his extra damage against the unholy. There's a lot more powers that can be added, but before I list them, I ought to know if the following is allowed:
• I'm pretty sure the LS of all protagonists should be at least Class 1 or 5-ish, they are roughly comparable, (I mean, of course, some are way weaker but not to the point that one can ragdoll the other) and the characters can do things such as pull and push enemies (Through moves such as Bounty Hunter's Come Hither and Occultist's Daemon Pull) as heavy and massive as the Swine Prince, Bone Captains and Brigand Pounder and resist such pulls. (Butcher's Circus show that they scale to each other, and they can resist move skills of similar caliber by monsters) Here's an explanation in Moving.
  In fact, going into more detail, I'll make it clear that pushing the Swine Prince is very hard, even with the help of items. If we considered enemies that would be more feasibly pushed and moved around, there are: Brigand Bloodletters, massive men that are easily twice a man's height and many times a man's weight; Gargoyles, who are made out of solid stone and are human-sized; Plow Horses, who are basically undead, crystal-filled horses; and the Crocodilian, who is a massive, mutated abomination of a crocodile.
• All characters should get Preparation, that's the entire point of items and camp skills. Besides, camp skills should be noted in the profile as well, and I think that, on the very least, unique equipment pieces should be noted as well.
• Which brings me to another point: Should the powers gained by items be noted? And what about the Crimson Curse, who changes the entire character quite significantly?
• Also, should we consider the Butcher Circus' variants? Many powers have added functionalities in the Butcher's Circus.

I agree with the suggested additions, and yeah, I think items/BC stuff should be added.

 

[Armorchompy]

Bump- This is still a stats CRT, we should focus on that.

Also, DD2 is looking kinda sick ngl.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I'm looking forward to playing it, unsure if I'll like it.

 

[Armorchompy]

I really like that it's not just DD1 but a little better but its own spin on the formula. Plus it looks amazing visually, but obviously can't know if I'll like it until I try it.

Anyway, is there any other notable supporter that we should notify for this? A lot of staff has approved this already I think.