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Dark Souls Upgrades

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The Everlasting said:
Never mind that it's literally impossible for the sun to "go out" without black dwarf nonsense
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This is a fictional world where humanoid beings can power the light of an entire world. How does impossibility even relate to this topic?
 
The Everlasting said:
it's rekindling the First Flame because they're rekindling the First Flame, not the sun literally.
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If it isn't the sun literally that would debunk this entire feat. Because the only reason they are being considered for Star level is because they are talking about the literal sun.
 
Occam's Razor is the idea that the conclusion with the least amount of assumptions is the most reasonable one.

Also, we're both arguing "unsubstantiated" assumptions, so don't go acting like yours is better

Also also, arguing with physics like that is like saying Piccolo didn't bust the moon because it didn't have negative effects on Earth.
 
You were the one arguing about impossibility of stellar objects losing their light. You were the one who introduced the physics and Occam's Razor in the first place.

The Piccolo comment is not relevant because there is an actual feat showing that he destroyed the moon. In DKS the sun is never shown to explode or be vaporized, only that it fades and stops providing light and warmth.

The Assumption that Lord Souls fuel the sun, is less extraordinary than the Assumption that Lord Gwyn outputs the energy enough to create/destroy a star.
 
Extraordinary meaning it would be eliminated by Occam's Razor before less extraordinary claims. And you aren't brining logic, you are bringing contradictions and fallacies.
 
It's not more extraordinary, it's more simple.

I don't see why it's such a hard concept to accept the sun ceasing to exist when the First Flame goes out.
 
It's not more simple it's incoherent and has no evidence for it. No where in the lore is it said that the dying of the first Flame busts a star, and the rekindling of the Flame recreates a dying star.
 
"In the Age of Ancients the world was unformed, shrouded by fog. A land of gray crags, Archtrees and Everlasting Dragons. But then there was Fire and with fire came disparity. Heat and cold, life and death, and of course, light and dark."

this implies that before the first flame the sun didn't exist, as there was no light nor heat
 
"It's not more simple it's incoherent and has no evidence for it. No where in the lore is it said that the dying of the first Flame busts a star, and the rekindling of the Flame recreates a dying star."

And there's nothing in lore that says the First Flame dying literally extinguishes the star, so we're back to square one.
 
Overlord775 said:
"In the Age of Ancients the world was unformed, shrouded by fog. A land of gray crags, Archtrees and Everlasting Dragons. But then there was Fire and with fire came disparity. Heat and cold, life and death, and of course, light and dark."
this implies that before the first flame the sun didn't exist, as there was no light nor heat
Click to expand...
That doesn't actually imply the creation of a star, just that the light and warm of the sun did not reach the DKS world. Which can mean:

1) They had no star at all and the First Flame created a Star.

2) The planet was so shrouded that Light could not reach it (Think Matrix overworld)

3) They had a dead star that needed fuel to be ignited.

Either way, the Rekindling of the First Flame, is not the same as Creating the First Flame from scratch. Much like it is easier to rekindle a fire than build a fire from scratch. Powering a fuelless star is easier than building a star from scratch.
 
The Everlasting said:
"It's not more simple it's incoherent and has no evidence for it. No where in the lore is it said that the dying of the first Flame busts a star, and the rekindling of the Flame recreates a dying star."
And there's nothing in lore that says the First Flame dying literally extinguishes the star, so we're back to square one.
Click to expand...
We are not back to square one, because the Dying of the First Flame is actually described as causing all light and warm to be extinguished. Light and Warm, not the physical mass of astronomical bodies. The Lore completely backs the assumption that the star goes dormant and needs to be relit. Rather than the star being destroyed and needing to be rebuilt.
 
Again I am not against a Star Level DKS, But there needs to be actual evidence of it. And there is no clear path from the Lore that the Rekindling of the Flame is = to the GBE of a Star.
 
"The First Flame quickly fades.
Darkness will shortly settle.
But one day, tiny flames will dance across the darkness.
Like embers, linked by lords past."

this implies that the first flame will be recreated
 
And isn't there actual evidence for it?

The whole thing is about how they are literally keeping the Sun by rekindling the flame else it will fade out of existence.

It is powering up the sun in a manner of speaking and keeping it from vanishing, simple enough
 
There is no direct path in logic to assume that the light and warm of the sun vanishing, means the entire physical body of the sun vanishes. That is like saying when there is a rainy day, there is no sun.
 
But I digress, I don't want to argue about the DKS sun anymore. If the wiki majority would prefer to see 4-C Dark Souls, then I don't want to continue blockading it.
 
RageComment said:
There is no direct path in logic to assume that the light and warm of the sun vanishing, means the entire physical body of the sun vanishes. That is like saying when there is a rainy day, there is no sun.
Click to expand...
Path to logic is often forgotten in fiction.

I will at least agree with Ever if no other assumptions can be made, Occams razor should be applied.
 
Yes, the First Flame does allow the sun to exist, but if the Lords of Cinder merely power it, they should be Large Planet level, not Star level. Maybe Soul of Cinder and DS3 protagonist could be Star level, but that's about it.
 
Star level is reserved strictly for the Lords of Cinder (Chosen Undead included) and possibly Pontiff Sulyvahn.

The Soul of Cinder and the Ashen One are At least High 4-C, possibly 4-B due to the former being an amalgamation of every Lord of Cinder across history.

I more or less explained the rest of the scaling here, though it's incomplete (I haven't finished defining the scaling for DS2 and 3, and the Mid-Tier scaling could probably be changed to Town level from a feat the Ceaseless Discharge has).
 
@ever what about the ringed city DLC bosses ? the entrance to the DLC is accesible right before the SoC arena and wouldn't Nito and Izalith at their prime scale to 4-C for having a full lord soul, which is the power source of Gwyn ?
 
Dark Souls operates heavily under gameplay and story segregation. The order you fight bosses in is not indicative of their overall power, unless you think the armor of some random dragon slayer schmuck is stronger than multiple Lords of Cinder.

Gwyn's 4-C power is derived from the First Flame. And even then, he's consistently noted to be exceptionally powerful by comparison to the other Lords.
 
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