Dark Souls - Cleanups and Possible Issues

[WeeklyBattles]

Alrighty, jumping right back into it. The current state of the soulsborne profiles bothered me, so in the past year ive put ~150 - 200 hours into each game in the series to do some cleanup. Dark Souls 1 is first.

Here is a mostly cleaned up Chosen Undead profile, mostly just cleaned up the abilities, weapons, and intelligence section, but the tiers need some discussion:

Issue 1 - BoG Key:

Okay, so, the Beginning of Game key is scaled to a few things, but all of them have issues.

• The Asylum Demon

On paper, this is pretty simple, but the calc for the Asylum Demon comes from Narutoforums, is extremely old, and likely needs reevaluation as the calc for the mass and velocity of the demon's weapon is kinda wonky, and there are results as low as 9-A in the original calc.

• Black Knights/Demons and Chaos Pyromancies

Okay this is a big no. Right away Chaos Pyromancies are god-tier spells, on par with the magic of other Lords like Gwyn's Sunlight Spear, Nito's Greatsword Dance, and Seath's White Dragon's Breath, so there is no reason whatsoever for the beginning of game CU to scale to this level of magic. On top of that, there is not a single demon in the entire franchise who utilizes Chaos Pyromancies, so there would be no reason for Black Knights to scale to that. And on top of THAT, the only users of Chaos Pyromancies that you encounter naturally are late-game hollows, in Dark Souls in particular there are only two; King Jeremiah and the Daughter of Izalith, the former of which is only encountered after you reach Anor Londo as he is in the Painted World of Ariamis and the latter of which is fought outside the Bed of Chaos' boss room. All of this taken into consideration, BoG CU should not scale to Chaos Pyromancies.

• and though its not listed, the Curse-Rotted Greatwood

This one is kinda iffy. For one, the Greatwood did destroy the floor of its battlefield, but the floor itself was effectively a bunch of old brick and mortar suspended over a massive pit, not just solid stone ground. Its unlikely that it required nearly as much energy to cause it to collapse as it would be to fragment that much stone in one go.

Now, theres plenty for the CU to scale to in the early game both from this and from later games, such as the Hellkite Drake's fire breath and the barrel minefield from DS2, but these are likely lower than 8-B and would need calcs.

Issue 2 - No Mid-Game Key:

For some reason, the CU lacks a mid-game key despite there being profiles for bosses scaled to 7-C, specifically the Ceaseless Discharge. Not really much to say for this tbh, just that a new key should be made.

Issue 3 - Late-Game Scaling:

This is gonna be the argument starter. Simply put, as of Dark Souls 3, the CU's fight with Ornstein and Smough, as well as the potential fight with Gwyndolin, was retconned. Ornstein was confirmed to have left Anor Londo long ago in search of the Nameless King, while Smough was left to guard Anor Londo as it fell into ruin until Aldrich attacked and killed him and Gwyndolin. All three of them were alive after the events of Dark Souls 1. Theres also some personal issues I have with Ornstein himself scaling to the Everlasting Dragons but that can be addressed later.

Not to say that the Chosen Undead isnt on this level, as they can still fight and kill Manus and Kalameet at this point, as well as obtain weapons on par with the gods, but the scaling with Ornstein, Smough, and Gwyndolin would need to be discussed.

Thats about it for now, there are some other issues that will be addressed later but these are the simpler ones to take care of real quick.

 

[Shmooply]

Pretty decent cleanup, actually. Obviously it isn't fully finished, but it's a good start.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Dark Souls: Hellkite Drake

vsbattles.fandom.com

Calc for the Hellkite Drake

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Pretty decent cleanup, actually. Obviously it isn't fully finished, but it's a good start.

Thank ^-^

Im also going to be adding a gallery to the equipment section when/if this goes through

And yeah, this is just meant to clean up some of the glaring issues with the early game stuff, didnt want to do too much with late game as i know Ovens is planning to revise that soon.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Also i have cleanups like this planned for almost every soulsborne game

 

[Paul_Frank]

bullet point pna

Instantly bad, no hope anymore

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Instantly bad, no hope anymore

Gonna have to take that one up with the profile standards, that one's not my decision lol

 

[Paul_Frank]

Gonna have to take that one up with the profile standards lol, that one's not on me

Everyone ignores those standards because they're bad, it's fine

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Asylum Demon- It's really about establishing if the math is wrong, which I don't believe it was. If standard procedures were done it was also ported to VSBW, but then again mass projects like that often have holes in 'em so it may be worth doing.

Black Knights and Chaos Pyromancies: I think it would be more accurate to say Chaos Pyromancies are on par with Seathe's stuff, given we learn them from Izalith's daughters and the books containing them are accredited to said daughters rather than Izalith herself. In any case, I do agree us scaling them to beginning of game CU is kinda bullshit. I dunno why you're mentioning the Black Knights here but the CU should absolutely scale to them given there's one in the Burg at the outset of the game that you can fight.

Curse-Rotted Greatwood: Soft disagree here. It's hard to get a good look at it, what with the floor not really being a focus for the boss fight, but I did check and the tiles appear to be connected at points and broken at random other points. This would imply the tiles themselves were cracked apart rather than the plaster just giving way. So I agree it is possible this was done using less energy than it may have otherwise required, but I don't agree that this is the most likely explanation.

Mid-Game Key: No complaint from me really, though we do have a mid-game key scaling to dragons. I see you've addressed this so I shall move on.

Late-Game Scaling: What? No? Like I agree it doesn't matter, what with Kalameet, Ciaran, etc potentially being fought around this same time, but still. Gwyndolin's illusions provide more than enough reason to doubt any "retconning", and even if it didn't, we frankly know that time being as fucky as it is to handwave such notions. We seem to agree on scaling though so I'd rather not argue personal interpretations of vague events, if it's all the same.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Asylum Demon- It's really about establishing if the math is wrong, which I don't believe it was. If standard procedures were done it was also ported to VSBW, but then again mass projects like that often have holes in 'em so it may be worth doing.

I cant seem to find it on the wiki, just on the CU's profile as a link to NF, so i dont think it was ported. The issue also is that from what i can tell, the NF's calc has two different results, and the weird formatting NF uses makes it kinda hard to understand. No issue with using the Asylum Demon's attacks as a feat justification, just think it would be best to have the math looked over and cleaned up and ported to the wiki just to be sure the result is correct.

Black Knights and Chaos Pyromancies: I think it would be more accurate to say Chaos Pyromancies are on par with Seathe's stuff, given we learn them from Izalith's daughters and the books containing them are accredited to said daughters rather than Izalith herself. In any case, I do agree us scaling them to beginning of game CU is kinda bullshit.

I mean, Seath's stuff is on the same level as Logan's Crystal Sorceries which are stated to be on par with Gwyn's lightning

White Dragon Breath

For the Dark Souls III variant, see White Dragon Breath (Dark Souls III). White Dragon Breath is a sorcery in Dark Souls. Dropped by Big Hat Logan in The Duke's Archives, where the player first encountered Seath. It is required that the player has first freed Logan from his cell and defeated...

darksouls.fandom.com

Soul Spear (Dark Souls)

For the Dark Souls II variant, see Soul Spear (Dark Souls II). For the Dark Souls III variant, see Soul Spear (Dark Souls III). Soul Spear is a Sorcery in Dark Souls. Sold by Griggs of Vinheim for 40,000 souls, provided that the player has at least 10 Intelligence. Sold by Big Hat Logan for...

darksouls.fandom.com

Crystal Soul Spear (Dark Souls)

For other uses, see Soul Spear (disambiguation). Crystal Soul Spear is a Sorcery in Dark Souls. Crystal Soul Spear is sold by Big Hat Logan for 50,000 souls in The Duke's Archives, after freeing him for the second time. Crystal Soul Spear has the same number of casts and takes up the same number...

darksouls.fandom.com

But yeah, not sure how that stayed there for so long lol

I dunno why you're mentioning the Black Knights here but the CU should absolutely scale to them given there's one in the Burg at the outset of the game that you can fight.

From the Chosen Undead's profile:

can do battle with Black Knights, which can do battle with comparably powerful demons, as well as demons that can cast pyromancies like Chaos Storm, which are capable of generating this much energy

No issue with the CU scaling to Black Knights, the issue was that the CU's profile was scaling Black Knights to Chaos Pyromancies

Curse-Rotted Greatwood: Soft disagree here. It's hard to get a good look at it, what with the floor not really being a focus for the boss fight, but I did check and the tiles appear to be connected at points and broken at random other points. This would imply the tiles themselves were cracked apart rather than the plaster just giving way. So I agree it is possible this was done using less energy than it may have otherwise required, but I don't agree that this is the most likely explanation.

Fair, though it may be good to do a recheck of the math just to be on the safe side as last i checked there are two calcs with two vastly different yields of the same feat

Late-Game Scaling: What? No? Like I agree it doesn't matter, what with Kalameet, Ciaran, etc potentially being fought around this same time, but still. Gwyndolin's illusions provide more than enough reason to doubt any "retconning", and even if it didn't, we frankly know that time being as fucky as it is to handwave such notions. We seem to agree on scaling though so I'd rather not argue personal interpretations of vague events, if it's all the same.

The illusions are sorta the issue, in that it implies that the CU didnt fight the real Ornstein and Smough and thus shouldnt have their fight as a justification, though i admit i did forget about the fucky time stuff so that could explain it.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Dark Souls: Curse-Rotted Greatwood destroys floor

vsbattles.fandom.com

Dark Souls III: The Curse-Rotted Greatwood Smashes the Floor

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I cant seem to find it on the wiki, just on the CU's profile as a link to NF, so i dont think it was ported. The issue also is that from what i can tell, the NF's calc has two different results, and the weird formatting NF uses makes it kinda hard to understand. No issue with using the Asylum Demon's attacks as a feat justification, just think it would be best to have the math looked over and cleaned up and ported to the wiki just to be sure the result is correct.

I can look into it, if you like. Determining which result is more likely, I mean. More than happy to help out. ChaosTheory is generally a reliable calc person so I don't think there's any considerable issues and I don't recall any calc standard revisions since its publishing that would invalidate it completely, so the math is most likely fine to use.

I mean, Seath's stuff is on the same level as Logan's Crystal Sorceries which are stated to be on par with Gwyn's lightning

Perfectly aware, I was just nitpicking really. It's second generation bigshit magic as opposed to first generation bigshit magic. Though, that said, only the greatest of Logan's magic was on par with Gwyn's lightning. At the very least we both agree the Chaos spells are superior to base game CU and other Souls protagonists, and more likely scales roughly to the dragon stuff.

From the Chosen Undead's profile:

can do battle with Black Knights, which can do battle with comparably powerful demons, as well as demons that can cast pyromancies like Chaos Storm, which are capable of generating this much energy

No issue with the CU scaling to Black Knights, the issue was that the CU's profile was scaling Black Knights to Chaos Pyromancies

Gotcha. Yeah, I don't remember any demons using Chaos Storm specifically, though I do suppose it isn't outside the realm of possibilities. I don't remember Demon Firesage having anything too crazy but it may be worth looking into him as well, since despite being a later game boss he should by all rights scale to Black Knights. Just a thought.

Fair, though it may be good to do a recheck of the math just to be on the safe side as last i checked there are two calcs with two vastly different yields of the same feat

Aye, I can do so.

The illusions are sorta the issue, in that it implies that the CU didnt fight the real Ornstein and Smough and thus shouldnt have their fight as a justification, though i admit i did forget about the fucky time stuff so that could explain it.

It isn't a big deal, since we agree on the scaling, we can easily change the reasoning as opposed to getting into the obscurities of this one individual feat. I am fine with removing O&S from the scaling justifications, even if I personally find them a fine enough thing to scale to.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Okay I can quickly ignore Amelia's calc.

The diameter of the hole was approx equal to the monster, so we'll be using that as the diameter.

Anyone who has played Dark Souls 3 can say this is false, the hole is the entire boss arena. This would be our reason for the wildly varying results, Amelia's pegged the diameter of the room at a mere 10 meters and some change.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

I think the Asylum Demon should get a Re-Calc just to be safe.

Chaos Sorcery is a negative, that shit is like Fire on top of Fire and with Implications to be on par with Seathe's Sorceries.

I disagree with removing O&S from the Scaling though because they're still based on the real deal and because Gwyndolin's Illusions are physical as shown with the fact that they can damage and kill you, they should still be Everlasting Dragon Level. At best you can argue they scale to Gwyndolin since he directly created them with his Magic. Also, I'm pretty sure it was literally stated that only Ornstein was an illusion in DS3 and not Smough?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Aha, I think I see why people pegged the Asylum Demon as 8-B based on that calc.

The mass of the thing's hammer is 12.855 tons, the AP of the demon is 0.147 tons. I don't see any obvious issues with the calc, in fact the man was a lot more careful with his work than I'm used to on VSBW. Rarely do people explain their shit like that, too.

So the Asylum Demon's calc is fine but is only 9-A. I do think there's probably better feats to pull from, but the calc for him seems absolutely fine and even laudable.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I disagree with removing O&S from the Scaling though because they're still based on the real deal and because Gwyndolin's Illusions are physical as shown with the fact that they can damage and kill you, they should still be Everlasting Dragon Level. At best you can argue they scale to Gwyndolin since he directly created them with his Magic. Also, I'm pretty sure it was literally stated that only Ornstein was an illusion in DS3 and not Smough?

I had also heard that, but I remembered it as a fan explanation given that Smough is the canonical second stage and the statements that he was the last defender of the cathedral. Either way it doesn't matter too much, as Smough doesn't have much going for him scaling to dragons except for his ties to Ornstein, which he may not actually have.

In any case I think direct scaling is better. The illusions are probably Low 6-B, but it's easier to say "Scales to Ciaran, who kills Everlasting Dragons/Scales to Kalameet, who is an everlasting Dragon" than "Scales to Smough and the illusion of Ornstein, who are most likely Low 6-B due to fighting the Chosen Undead after they had fought Kalameet, who is an everlasting Dragon".

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Gotcha. Yeah, I don't remember any demons using Chaos Storm specifically, though I do suppose it isn't outside the realm of possibilities. I don't remember Demon Firesage having anything too crazy but it may be worth looking into him as well, since despite being a later game boss he should by all rights scale to Black Knights. Just a thought.

Already looked into him, he doesnt use chaos pyromancy either

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Already looked into him, he doesnt use chaos pyromancy either

Well, no, but I meant he has an attack that may be worth looking at. His explosion thing he does had a decently wide radius.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Well, no, but I meant he has an attack that may be worth looking at. His explosion thing he does had a decently wide radius.

Ah gotcha, yeah i can try to find a good clip of that

Also i calced the Hellkite Drake and got 9-A

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

I had also heard that, but I remembered it as a fan explanation given that Smough is the canonical second stage and the statements that he was the last defender of the cathedral. Either way it doesn't matter too much, as Smough doesn't have much going for him scaling to dragons except for his ties to Ornstein, which he may not actually have.

In any case I think direct scaling is better. The illusions are probably Low 6-B, but it's easier to say "Scales to Ciaran, who kills Everlasting Dragons/Scales to Kalameet, who is an everlasting Dragon" than "Scales to Smough and the illusion of Ornstein, who are most likely Low 6-B due to fighting the Chosen Undead after they had fought Kalameet, who is an everlasting Dragon".

No, don't say he scales to Kalameet for his Justification, Kalameet has a direct statement of Anor Londo fearing his Wrath implying he's strong enough to destroy them. That implies that could pull up on the Gods which is weird but literally stated in-game that Anor Londo doesn't want to **** with him.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Yeah, thinking on it a bit, you can only get to Oolacile after you get the Lordvessel ie. after you beat Ornstein and Smough, so th CU can only fight and beat Kalameet well after beating them

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Well, no, but I meant he has an attack that may be worth looking at. His explosion thing he does had a decently wide radius.

Might be better to use th Stray Demon in this case, same exact explosion only the Stray isnt locked behind the Lordvessel lik the Firesage

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Fair enough, I just remembered the Firesage. Been awhile since I played DS1. The firesage should be just as valid in scaling though, given Black Knights, but Stray Demon being a more direct link is fine.

No, don't say he scales to Kalameet for his Justification, Kalameet has a direct statement of Anor Londo fearing his Wrath implying he's strong enough to destroy them. That implies that could pull up on the Gods which is weird but literally stated in-game that Anor Londo doesn't want to **** with him.

Much of Anor Londo is Low 6-B, though. We don't rate Kalameet as being above Gwyn or anything lol. He's a perfectly valid point of scaling.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

On one hand, you can only fight Kalameet after beating O and S, on thee other hand Gough was able to cripple Kalameet with a single arrow...

Makes you wonder why he was so feared

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Fair enough, I just remembered the Firesage. Been awhile since I played DS1. The firesage should be just as valid in scaling though, given Black Knights, but Stray Demon being a more direct link is fine.

Eeeeeh im not too sure if the Firesage would scale, he's explicitly one of the strongest demons and hes locked behind the Lordvessel barrier, so its unlikely that any of the Black Knights fought him as there are no Black Knights past any of the Lordvessel barriers

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Kiln of the First Flame has like seven of the *******, but I can see how that'd be different.

 

[hippoishungry]

another good feat would be the gaping dragon destroying the large pillars of stone in its boss room

 

[Mr. Bambu]

another good feat would be the gaping dragon destroying the large pillars of stone in its boss room

Actually I think that is calculated somewhere, I distinctly remember that coming out to 8-C or thereabouts.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Kiln of the First Flame has like seven of the *******, but I can see how that'd be different.

The black knights you fight throughout the game are just projections of the knights in the Kiln, its why they dont respawn anywhere but the final area

Black Knight Armor

For the Dark Souls III variant, see Black Knight Armor (Dark Souls III). The Black Knight Armor is a chest armor piece in Dark Souls. It is part of the Black Knight Set. Found off a corpse on the bridge section of the Kiln of the First Flame, along with the rest of the Black Knight Set. A good...

darksouls.fandom.com

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Actually I think that is calculated somewhere, I distinctly remember that coming out to 8-C or thereabouts.

Would the Gaping Dragon be considered an early or mid-game boss though?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Would the Gaping Dragon be considered an early or mid-game boss though?

Oh, I'd definitely consider it an early game boss.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

IMO, the scaling for the bosses would be:

Early Game: Asylum Demon, Stray Demon, Taurus Demon, Capra Demon, Bell Gargoyles, Hellkite Drake
Mid Game: Quelaag, Ceaseless Discharge, Sif, Moonlight Butterfly, Pinwheel, Gaping Dragon, Iron Golem, Undead Dragon
Late Game: Centipede Demon, Sanctuary Guardian, Demon Firesage, Gwyndolin, Priscilla, Ornstein and Smough, Manus, Artorias, Kalameet
End Game: Four Kings, Seath, Nito, Bed of Chaos, Gwyn

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Oh, I'd definitely consider it an early game boss.

Hmm...it is in sort of a grey area of scaling isnt it...

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

The black knights you fight throughout the game are just projections of the knights in the Kiln, its why they dont respawn anywhere but the final area

Black Knight Armor

For the Dark Souls III variant, see Black Knight Armor (Dark Souls III). The Black Knight Armor is a chest armor piece in Dark Souls. It is part of the Black Knight Set. Found off a corpse on the bridge section of the Kiln of the First Flame, along with the rest of the Black Knight Set. A good...

darksouls.fandom.com

Wait, would that give the Black Knights some kind of Astral Projection or Avatar Creation? Maybe even just Duplication?

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Wait, would that give the Black Knights some kind of Astral Projection or Avatar Creation? Maybe even just Duplication?

Astral Projection, their spirits are projected throughout the world from within th Kiln, you even see some of their spirits wandering through the whit void between the Lordvessel and th Kiln

 

[Armorchompy]

Gonna have to take that one up with the profile standards, that one's not my decision lol

It's not an obligatory change, just a possibility, you can do old style or bullet point, either is accepted. Personally I think the old style works better for this one.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

IMO, the scaling for the bosses would be:

Early Game: Asylum Demon, Stray Demon, Taurus Demon, Capra Demon, Bell Gargoyles, Hellkite Drake
Mid Game: Quelaag, Ceaseless Discharge, Sif, Moonlight Butterfly, Pinwheel, Gaping Dragon, Iron Golem, Undead Dragon
Late Game: Centipede Demon, Sanctuary Guardian, Demon Firesage, Gwyndolin, Priscilla, Ornstein and Smough, Manus, Artorias, Kalameet
End Game: Four Kings, Seath, Nito, Bed of Chaos, Gwyn

Using the same characters here, so as to avoid confusion- so I'm excluding some characters, obviously.

Early Game: Asylum Demon, Stray Demon, Taurus Demon, Capra Demon, Bell Gargoyles, Hellkite Drake, Gaping Dragon, Moonlight Butterfly
Mid Game: Quelaag, Ceaseless Discharge, Pinwheel (lmao), Iron Golem, Centipede Demon
Late Game: Sif, Sanctuary Guardian, Gwyndolin, Priscilla, O&S, Manus, Artorias, Kalameet
End Game: Four Kings, Seath, Nito, Bed of Chaos, Gwyn

Note: Firesage I still think scales below the point in the game in which he is actually fought. Maybe a possibly rating?

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Yeah no Pinwheel scales to his own feats. Should probably downgrade him to 9-B scaling off of other Undeads.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Yeah no Pinwheel scales to his own feats. Should probably downgrade him to 9-B scaling off of other Undeads.

Are you saying this because, mechanically, that ************ is one of the easiest boss fights in all of Souls, or because you have a genuine reason to scale him uniquely?

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Are you saying this because, mechanically, that ************ is one of the easiest boss fights in all of Souls, or because you have a genuine reason to scale him uniquely?

He's literally just a dad carrying his family. He should scale no differently to the Hollows we fight.