Dark Souls - Cleanups and Possible Issues

[WeeklyBattles]

TBH i can s Pinwheel being Wall level, Town level with magic seeing as he's basically just a weaker, necromancy version of Logan

 

[Paul_Frank]

He's literally just a dad carrying his family. He should scale no differently to the Hollows we fight.

That's not fair to Pinwheel, he's actually referred to multiple times as having stolen power from Nito, and there's also references to that being a plot to destroy the gods in other items. Not saying he scales to gods, but he's definitely not generic Hollow level

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Would yall care if i start applying the equipment section while we're in-between stat discussions?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

That's not fair to Pinwheel, he's actually referred to multiple times as having stolen power from Nito, and there's also references to that being a plot to destroy the gods in other items. Not saying he scales to gods, but he's definitely not generic Hollow level

Aye, agree with Paul on this'n. Pinwheel is a meme but per lore he's got no reason to be dumped to lower tiers. There's definitely others with less justifications that we slot where they are.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Aye, agree with Paul on this'n. Pinwheel is a meme but per lore he's got no reason to be dumped to lower tiers. There's definitely others with less justifications that we slot where they are.

Would it be fair to have him be a glass cannon?

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Also, meant to bring it up, but would the creation of the Painted World of Ariamis be a feat worth calcing?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Would it be fair to have him be a glass cannon?

Again, meh. We don't assume that for others, and using hit point values has always struck me in a weird way. Perhaps at worst we could use the rarely used "possibly Lower" option?

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Again, meh. We don't assume that for others, and using hit point values has always struck me in a weird way. Perhaps at worst we could use the rarely used "possibly Lower" option?

I mean, its less about HP values, seeing as Pinwheel actually has more HP than the Asylum Demon, the Taurus Demon, and the Capra Demon, and more that he has no physical attacks to warrant being that strong physically, all of his offensive moves are magic-based, whereas even guys like Logan have melee attacks and weapons to warrant scaling physically to their magic

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I mean, its less about HP values, seeing as Pinwheel actually has more HP than the Asylum Demon, the Taurus Demon, and the Capra Demon, and more that he has no physical attacks to warrant being that strong physically, all of his offensive moves are magic-based, whereas even guys like Logan have melee attacks and weapons to warrant scaling physically to their magic

Y'know what, that's fair. I'd rather list him as "Unknown" physically rather than defaulting to Wall level, as under that argument we can't rightfully place him anywhere. I don't understand why you were arguing him as a glass cannon under this logic, but if you want a separate "Unknown" for his physical AP, I approve.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Y'know what, that's fair. I'd rather list him as "Unknown" physically rather than defaulting to Wall level, as under that argument we can't rightfully place him anywhere. I don't understand why you were arguing him as a glass cannon under this logic, but if you want a separate "Unknown" for his physical AP, I approve.

Thats fair

So aside from the greatwood calc and waiting for an eval on the Hellkite calc is there any issue with the changes here?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Greatwood calc should actually be A-okay, I did look through it. It was approved of by plenty of CGMs from the time and nothing stuck out to me now.

The only other thing would be the explosion thing from Firesage/Stray Demon.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Greatwood calc should actually be A-okay, I did look through it. It was approved of by plenty of CGMs from the time and nothing stuck out to me now.

The only other thing would be the explosion thing from Firesage/Stray Demon.

Awesome, though it does pose the question of if the CU has any reason to scale to it...

I can whip up a quick calc for that sure

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I don't see a reason for CU to not scale to it, you can tank the Greatwood's ass-slam. It hits hard but it is doable. Does feel weird that CU will be the only early game 8-B but hey, earlier games shoulda simply included an 8-B feat, punkass devs shoulda thought of that smh.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

I don't see a reason for CU to not scale to it, you can tank the Greatwood's ass-slam. It hits hard but it is doable. Does feel weird that CU will be the only early game 8-B but hey, earlier games shoulda simply included an 8-B feat, punkass devs shoulda thought of that smh.

The CU doesnt fight the Greatwood tho, thats the Ashen One

 

[Mr. Bambu]

OH right hey my bad, I kinda auto-piloted into using CU as the acronym for the protag.

Yeah, I don't see how it'd scale to DS1 or DS2 at all, as I implied in my last post. They've got no equivalent of the Curse-Rotted Greatwood. At best you might argue a connection to Lucatiel for DS2? I don't know what argument you could make for that, but I suppose there's some potential evidence.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

OH right hey my bad, I kinda auto-piloted into using CU as the acronym for the protag.

Yeah, I don't see how it'd scale to DS1 or DS2 at all, as I implied in my last post. They've got no equivalent of the Curse-Rotted Greatwood. At best you might argue a connection to Lucatiel for DS2? I don't know what argument you could make for that, but I suppose there's some potential evidence.

All good man, i know the feeling lol

Yeah i dont think theres any way to connect it to DS1, and im still sifting through DS2's lore because that game kicked my ass so hard i was hyprfocusd on just gtting through it that i barely absorbd any of th lore :/

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Also slightly off topic but i wasnt sure if you saw all th bloodborne calcs i posted in the review board, thats my next crt

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Also also, slightly more on topic, two things:

1. Where does Class M LS come from
2. Is there any reason why Heavenly Thunder, Lightning Storm, Blessed Pillars of Light, and the lightning in Gael's fight arent used for speed feats?

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Greatwood calc should actually be A-okay, I did look through it. It was approved of by plenty of CGMs from the time and nothing stuck out to me now.

The only other thing would be the explosion thing from Firesage/Stray Demon.

Dark Souls: Stray Demon Explosion

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9-A

Also i can say almost for certain that the gaping dragon's pillar feat wont yield above 9-A

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Also also, slightly more on topic, two things:

1. Where does Class M LS come from
2. Is there any reason why Heavenly Thunder, Lightning Storm, Blessed Pillars of Light, and the lightning in Gael's fight arent used for speed feats?

Gael's Lightning legitimately Blitzes the Ashen One if you try to dodge it instead of getting off the glowing spot where it strikes. It's literally impossible to dodge, I went and checked myself. Everything else was rejected as being Lightning Speed because it didn't fit our standards or something like that.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Gael's Lightning legitimately Blitzes the Ashen One if you try to dodge it instead of getting off the glowing spot where it strikes. It's literally impossible to dodge, I went and checked myself. Everything else was rejected as being Lightning Speed because it didn't fit our standards or something like that.

Heavenly Thunder and Lightning Storm are shown to be CTG lightning tho, not just thrown bolts

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Heavenly Thunder and Lightning Storm are shown to be CTG lightning tho, not just thrown bolts

Idk what to tell you other than they got rejected in a CRT last year.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Huh, i'll hav to bring tht up at some point then

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Dark Souls: Gaping Dragon Smacks a Pillar

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Huh, I stand corrected, its juuuuuuuuuuuuuuuust barely 8-C

Possibly warranting an 'Early Game' key and relegating the demons to 'Beginning of Game'?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Honestly I think just scaling straight to Gaping Dragon is probably safe. Does mean DS2 is the only one left at 9-A but **** 'em.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Honestly I think just scaling straight to Gaping Dragon is probably safe. Does mean DS2 is the only one left at 9-A but **** 'em.

You sure? Honestly the natural progression of the lesser demons being 9-A and then the first non-demon boss, the gaping dragon, being 8-C makes a lot of sense

Just need an eval for this and the hellkite calc and i can start applying the general changes

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Iron Golem (Dark Souls)

The Iron Golem is the guardian of Sen's Fortress, and slayer of countless heroes seeking Anor Londo. Its core was created by the gods, who fused the power of the soul with the great bones of the dragons, forming an appropriate core for the giant golem. Tier: 7-C Name: Iron Golem Origin: Dark...

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[WeeklyBattles]

Also do we scale Bosses' power based on the yield of their souls? Because Sif's soul has the same yield as Artorias and Gwyndolin and slightly less than Manus

 

[Mr. Bambu]

We have the backdrop to do that (we already accept that more souls = greater power) but I fear that doing so would be too game mechanic-y to use for evidence.

In any case, for Sif's case she ought to scale fine. She fought Manus, after all.

As for the Gaping Dragon thing, aye, I think it's early enough to scale to early-game CU. I'll take a look at the Hellkite calc rn.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

We have the backdrop to do that (we already accept that more souls = greater power) but I fear that doing so would be too game mechanic-y to use for evidence.

In any case, for Sif's case she ought to scale fine. She fought Manus, after all.

As for the Gaping Dragon thing, aye, I think it's early enough to scale to early-game CU. I'll take a look at the Hellkite calc rn.

I mean Artorias fought Manus too and yet we don't scale him to him because he lost but Sif can help you fight him when she was much weaker than when you meet her in the modern day.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Iron Golem (Dark Souls)

The Iron Golem is the guardian of Sen's Fortress, and slayer of countless heroes seeking Anor Londo. Its core was created by the gods, who fused the power of the soul with the great bones of the dragons, forming an appropriate core for the giant golem. Tier: 7-C Name: Iron Golem Origin: Dark...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Yeah that P&A is ******' awful. I'm gonna undo that, other than that I approve. Though, Iron Golem probably wasn't the best choice for a downgrade, given his soul is supposed to be a dragon's.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I mean Artorias fought Manus too and yet we don't scale him to him because he lost but Sif can help you fight him when she was much weaker than when you meet her in the modern day.

Fair enough. I would say, however, that given Sif assisted Artorias in his fights, wielded his sword, etc, that I think scaling Sif to Artorias is fine.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Yeah that P&A is ******' awful. I'm gonna undo that, other than that I approve. Though, Iron Golem probably wasn't the best choice for a downgrade, given his soul is supposed to be a dragon's.

Ouch

Th golem didnt hav a pofil to begin with, i just made it

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Fair enough. I would say, however, that given Sif assisted Artorias in his fights, wielded his sword, etc, that I think scaling Sif to Artorias is fine.

I was more so arguing that Artorias should scale to Manus because he's superior to Sif at the time she fought Manus with the Chosen Undead plus Artorias can fight the same Chosen Undead that not long after goes on and kills Manus. Maybe he got Amped by the Abyss but he did still fight the Chosen Undead.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Ahhhh, gotcha. In any case, it needs some discussion on tier, what with the aforementioned dragon soul powering it.

@Sir_Ovens you gonna step in or

 

[WeeklyBattles]

As for the Gaping Dragon thing, aye, I think it's early enough to scale to early-game CU. I'll take a look at the Hellkite calc rn.

Ye thats what i mean, splitting the CU's first key into 'beginning of game' and 'early game' where the beginning of the game is just the demons from Undead Burg and th Asylum, and the other bosses (Gaping Dragon, Moonlight Buttrfly, Gargoyles) become 8-C

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Ahhhh, gotcha. In any case, it needs some discussion on tier, what with the aforementioned dragon soul powering it.

I was just going off of the tier you put the Golem in earlier

Plus its not a dragon's soul powering it, its just a bone with a soul infused into it

Core of an Iron Golem

The Core of an Iron Golem is a consumable item in Dark Souls. The Core of an Iron Golem is dropped upon defeating the Iron Golem. The Core of an Iron Golem can be used to ascend a gauntlet type weapon +10 into the Dragon Bone Fist, or an axe or greataxe +10 into the Golem Axe. The Core of an...

darksouls.fandom.com

Dragon Bone Fist

The Dragon Bone Fist is a gauntlet in Dark Souls. The Dragon Bone Fist can be forged by the Giant Blacksmith with the Core of an Iron Golem and a +10 Caestus or Claw. The Dragon Bone Fist has higher scaling than the other gauntlet weapons; unfortunately, the damage output is still rather low. As...

darksouls.fandom.com

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Ye thats what i mean, splitting the CU's first key into 'beginning of game' and 'early game' where the beginning of the game is just the demons from Undead Burg and th Asylum, and the other bosses (Gaping Dragon, Moonlight Buttrfly, Gargoyles) become 8-C

Right, but you are proposing a split between BoG and early game, whereas I think the entire key ought to just be "Early Game". I think the 9-A calcs support the 8-C rather than represent an entirely different bit of the game.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I was just going off of the tier you put the Golem in earlier

Plus its not a dragon's soul powering it, its just a bone with a soul infused into it

Core of an Iron Golem

The Core of an Iron Golem is a consumable item in Dark Souls. The Core of an Iron Golem is dropped upon defeating the Iron Golem. The Core of an Iron Golem can be used to ascend a gauntlet type weapon +10 into the Dragon Bone Fist, or an axe or greataxe +10 into the Golem Axe. The Core of an...

darksouls.fandom.com

Dragon Bone Fist

The Dragon Bone Fist is a gauntlet in Dark Souls. The Dragon Bone Fist can be forged by the Giant Blacksmith with the Core of an Iron Golem and a +10 Caestus or Claw. The Dragon Bone Fist has higher scaling than the other gauntlet weapons; unfortunately, the damage output is still rather low. As...

darksouls.fandom.com

Soul of a dragon, either way. Whether the soul was made from a dragon's bone probably doesn't, but might, mean much. Having thought of it, I do think Iron Golem should be the start of Low 6-B.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Right, but you are proposing a split between BoG and early game, whereas I think the entire key ought to just be "Early Game". I think the 9-A calcs support the 8-C rather than represent an entirely different bit of the game.

The way im seeing it though is that literally all of the bosses that have 9-A feats are localized to the first two areas of the game, the Asylum and Undead Burg, whereas in the immediate next area you progress into you fight an enemy with a super casual 8-C feat. Its less arguing that
the existence of an 8-C feat among a few 9-A feats means that the 9-As should be 8-C' and more 'the first bosses in the first area have 9-A feats, but now youre progressing further into the game and getting stronger and are fighting stronger bosses and their feats reflect this progression'.

Soul of a dragon, either way. Whether the soul was made from a dragon's bone probably doesn't, but might, mean much. Having thought of it, I do think Iron Golem should be the start of Low 6-B.

Where does it say that its the soul of a dragon though?

"Soul serving as the core of the Iron Golem, guardian of Sen's Fortress, and slayer of countless heroes seeking Anor Londo. Originally a bone of an everlasting dragon. Use to acquire a huge amount of souls, or to create a unique weapon."

"A weapon from the soul of the Iron Golem, guardian of Sen's Fortress who repelled countless heroes who sought Anor Londo. The Gods fused the power of the soul with the great bones of the dragons, forming an appropriate core for the giant golem."