• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

Dante's inferno possibly 3-A

I'll admit i kind of derailed the debate by arguing about cosmology which in the grand scheme of things doesen't really matter. The thing that matters the most are Lucifer's statements about "destroying" the universe. So i'll address them now.

1. "I will reclaim my rightful place in Paradise. My path will be paved with the sins of Man and yours, Dante shall be the bedrock of my return. And all of that is good shall be gone from the Universe forever!"

This just blatantly shows he will not destroy the universe. Lucifer clearly states here he will destroy all the good in the universe. Not the universe itself. The universe will still be there in the end.

2." I'll make the earth tremble, shake kingdoms, and leave the world a desert! Well no longer suffer under His Plan, but shall be free under MINE! Remember the War in Heaven, remember the Rebellion! Soon we shall all witness the end of the Universe!"

Same thing here. He states he will shake the earth and leave it a desert. Since earth will be there the universe will obviously not be destroyed. Right after that he says everyone will be free under his plan, indicating he wants to rule the universe, not quite literally destroy it in it's entirety. Him saying "witness the end of the Universe" is just saying he will change the current state of it given all the context we have.

3. "Dante, i can reunite you with Beatrice. Together, we will rule 3 Kingdoms of the Afterlife!"


This confirms it even further. Lucifer always intended to rule The Universe. Not literally destroy it.

4. Even if we actually say he was talking about completely destroying the universe you still couldn't get "possibly 3-A". We don't have any evidence he would do this in a single attack nor do we have any given time frame this feat would happen in. You yourself even said it in the opening post: "Here Lucifer mentions that he will destroy all good things in the Universe, although this could be planets, galaxies, stars, or even the Earth itself.". So why excatly would he automatically get tier 3-A for this. Your best bet is "possibly far higher". It is also worthy mentioning that all this probably wouldn't even be done by Lucifer himself since he literally has a huge army of powerful demons under his belt.
 
Oh for God's sake, what are you saying?


This is no proof at all, Lucifer is stated twice to be destroying the Universe, and even though he would destroy all good things in the Universe, he could destroy all matter in the Universe and even all galaxies and he would still be Universal, we have proof and evidence to affirm this tier of him, during the game we are shown that hell itself is the size of the Universe, this doesn't make sense with what the work said, he stated that it would shake all kingdoms, bring the Universe to the end , which in itself is a big proof here.
 
LuffyRuffy46307 said:
Oh for God's sake, what are you saying?


This is no proof at all, Lucifer is stated twice to be destroying the Universe, and even though he would destroy all good things in the Universe, he could destroy all matter in the Universe and even all galaxies and he would still be Universal, we have proof and evidence to affirm this tier of him, during the game we are shown that hell itself is the size of the Universe, this doesn't make sense with what the work said, he stated that it would shake all kingdoms, bring the Universe to the end , which in itself is a big proof here.
Click to expand...
What are you saying? You haven't refuted anything i said. We have very clear context given by Lucifer himself that he won't destroy the universe and even if he was going to destroy the universe i explained why he couldn't get the 3-A rating.

Also ever heard of Figure of Speech?
 
Agnaa said:
Why was this applied in a way that made this rating a "likely" under Tier/AP/SS/Dura, but only a "possibly" under range?

I saw no-one here critique the range idea in particular. And hell, the whole thread was oriented around the rating being a "possibly", not a "likely".

If I'm reading this right, could this be fixed?
Click to expand...
Better question, why the **** does Dante not have it? I'd also argue the upgrade just isn't substantial enough evidence wise since it seems to rely heavily on one statement in particular and probably would be best served as a likely far higher
 
LuffyRuffy46307 said:
This is no proof at all, Lucifer is stated twice to be destroying the Universe, and even though he would destroy all good things in the Universe, he could destroy all matter in the Universe and even all galaxies and he would still be Universal, we have proof and evidence to affirm this tier of him, during the game we are shown that hell itself is the size of the Universe, this doesn't make sense with what the work said, he stated that it would shake all kingdoms, bring the Universe to the end , which in itself is a big proof here.
Click to expand...
Do we? I recall Virgil stating Hell exists at the center of the Earth and that Heaven is depicted at the top of a physical mountain on Earth, it's the entire reason for the MHS+ rating rather than anything higher. Unless we're going with Hell being it's own dimension (which is its own thing because we physically walk down a pit to get there). As for the uni stuff, I'd argue between the "shaking the earth and making the world a desert", Satan freezing over Hell with his wingbeats and the statement he made a mountain with his collapse that tectonic levels of power seem better supported
 
Hellbeast said:
Better question, why the **** does Dante not have it? I'd also argue the upgrade just isn't substantial enough evidence wise since it seems to rely heavily on one statement in particular and probably would be best served as a likely far higher
Click to expand...
I think "possibly" fits more than "likely" in this case considering how vauge Lucifer's statements are and lean more towards him just ruling the universe.
 
That;'s possible, at the very least there is one end of the universe statement.I do think the tectonic stuff you brought up earlier is more valuable to us though
 
Hellbeast said:
Do we? I recall Virgil stating Hell exists at the center of the Earth and that Heaven is depicted at the top of a physical mountain on Earth, it's the entire reason for the MHS+ rating rather than anything higher. Unless we're going with Hell being it's own dimension (which is its own thing because we physically walk down a pit to get there). As for the uni stuff, I'd argue between the "shaking the earth and making the world a desert", Satan freezing over Hell with his wingbeats and the statement he made a mountain with his collapse that tectonic levels of power seem better supported
Click to expand...
Right. The guides also give multiple statements that Inferno is just under the earth like in the poems.
 
And I'm checking out the "universe felt love" statement, Virgil never mentions Hell itself so I'm thinking he's talking about the Greater Universe. Hell I think he refers to "A Mighty One" which doesn't seem to be God to me
CorneredHarbor said:
Right. The guides also give multiple statements that Inferno is just under the earth like in the poems.
Click to expand...
Hell aren't Virgil's lines captured directly from the novel? That could be more support Hell is simply underground
 
Hellbeast said:
And I'm checking out the "universe felt love" statement, Virgil never mentions Hell itself so I'm thinking he's talking about the Greater Universe. Hell I think he refers to "A Mighty One" which doesn't seem to be God to me

Hell aren't Virgil's lines captured directly from the novel? That could be more support Hell is simply underground
Click to expand...
Yes. Literally all of Vergil's lines are straight from the poem making him kind of unique in that sense.
 
Hellbeast said:
And I'm checking out the "universe felt love" statement, Virgil never mentions Hell itself so I'm thinking he's talking about the Greater Universe. Hell I think he refers to "A Mighty One" which doesn't seem to be God to me
Click to expand...
Right. This refers to the greater universe. When Vergil talks about Inferno/Hell he names it that.

Even in the quote Lucifer says: "And all that is Good shall be gone from the Universe forever". Inferno wouldn't contain anything that is considered good so he obviously can't be refering to Inferno itself.

I think it's important we get that misconception out of the way.
The Universe=/=Inferno.
 
Last edited:

In this video the developers also state that the game starts on the surface and that you quite literally leap into Hell. Further confirming Hell is inside earth.

They also say they didn't want to change the detailed map of Hell Dante set up in his poem which clearly shows it's under earth. The map shown in the video:

This could also possibly be used for pixel scaling regarding the feat where Lucifer froze the 9th circle with the flapping of his wings.
 
CorneredHarbor said:
What are you saying? You haven't refuted anything i said. We have very clear context given by Lucifer himself that he won't destroy the universe and even if he was going to destroy the universe i explained why he couldn't get the 3-A rating.
Click to expand...
As I said before, he could destroy all the galaxies in just one go and it would still be Universal, we still have another quote of him destroying the Universe, so far you have only demonstrated empty words over and over again that have been refuted by the works and by me, if you Is there any evidence of this showing, because I'm not seeing any here.
CorneredHarbor said:
Also ever heard of Figure of Speech?
Click to expand...
Saying that it is hyperbole will not help you in any way, since the work proves the opposite of your opinion, before you were coming with arguments that a guide that hell is on earth, I showed evidence that it is not on earth, but yes, that passage is a kind of portal to get there, why are you now saying that it is hyperbole?
 
Hellbeast said:
Do we? I recall Virgil stating Hell exists at the center of the Earth and that Heaven is depicted at the top of a physical mountain on Earth, it's the entire reason for the MHS+ rating rather than anything higher. Unless we're going with Hell being it's own dimension (which is its own thing because we physically walk down a pit to get there). As for the uni stuff, I'd argue between the "shaking the earth and making the world a desert", Satan freezing over Hell with his wingbeats and the statement he made a mountain with his collapse that tectonic levels of power seem better supported
Click to expand...
Do you really play the game? Because it doesn't look like that, he goes through a kind of portal located below him to go to that location
 
CorneredHarbor said:
Yes. Literally all of Vergil's lines are straight from the poem making him kind of unique in that sense.
Click to expand...
Poems? Since he says that he was literally in hell itself and that God came to take it away, I don't know where you got this information about it being a poem, because that's not what the game describes.
 
CorneredHarbor said:

In this video the developers also state that the game starts on the surface and that you quite literally leap into Hell. Further confirming Hell is inside earth.
Click to expand...

No, it's just that there is a portal that Dante can go through and not that hell is on earth itself, remembering that this happened like many underworlds where there is an entrance through the ground (like Saint Seiya), but this does not mean that it is located there, but rather that there is an opening to go, but ultimately it is a portal connecting earth and the underworld, but the physical place is not there at all.
CorneredHarbor said:
They also say they didn't want to change the detailed map of Hell Dante set up in his poem which clearly shows it's under earth. The map shown in the video:

This could also possibly be used for pixel scaling regarding the feat where Lucifer froze the 9th circle with the flapping of his wings.
Click to expand...

Dude, having the map based on the poem doesn't refute the fact that the entire underworld is located in the center of the Universe.
 
I'll just post this again since you haven't disproven any of it and ignored more than half the things i said here.


1. "I will reclaim my rightful place in Paradise. My path will be paved with the sins of Man and yours, Dante shall be the bedrock of my return. And all of that is good shall be gone from the Universe forever!"

This just blatantly shows he will not destroy the universe. Lucifer clearly states here he will destroy all the good in the universe. Not the universe itself. The universe will still be there in the end.

2." I'll make the earth tremble, shake kingdoms, and leave the world a desert! Well no longer suffer under His Plan, but shall be free under MINE! Remember the War in Heaven, remember the Rebellion! Soon we shall all witness the end of the Universe!"

Same thing here. He states he will shake the earth and leave it a desert. Since earth will be there the universe will obviously not be destroyed. Right after that he says everyone will be free under his plan, indicating he wants to rule the universe, not quite literally destroy it in it's entirety. Him saying "witness the end of the Universe" is just saying he will change the current state of it given all the context we have.

3. "Dante, i can reunite you with Beatrice. Together, we will rule 3 Kingdoms of the Afterlife!"

This confirms it even further. Lucifer always intended to rule The Universe. Not literally destroy it.

4. Even if we actually say he was talking about completely destroying the universe you still couldn't get "possibly 3-A". We don't have any evidence he would do this in a single attack nor do we have any given time frame this feat would happen in. You yourself even said it in the opening post: "Here Lucifer mentions that he will destroy all good things in the Universe, although this could be planets, galaxies, stars, or even the Earth itself.". So why excatly would he automatically get tier 3-A for this. Your best bet is "possibly far higher". It is also worthy mentioning that all this probably wouldn't even be done by Lucifer himself since he literally has a huge army of powerful demons under his belt.

Give me an answer to this point by point.
 
You are just repeating the same points that the work already refutes, anyway we have already applied changes, and the 48 hour period has already passed, if you want to comment on the matter wait a period of 1 month and create your own crt ( I was told that this is the period in which an update was accepted and touching on the same subject would take a while, because it is in the rules), for now this is over, I won't comment further.
 
LuffyRuffy46307 said:
You are just repeating the same points that the work already refutes, anyway we have already applied changes, and the 48 hour period has already passed, if you want to comment on the matter wait a period of 1 month and create your own crt ( I was told that this is the period in which an update was accepted and touching on the same subject would take a while, because it is in the rules), for now this is over, I won't comment further.
Click to expand...

1.You didn't refute anything.

2. Also shouldn't the moderators come and have a look at this before closing?

3.You must change the "likely" in the profile to "possibly". That is what you agreed to do.
 
I guess we can stop the debate here. But you should call everyone that agreed to this to take a look at the final arguments before closing.
 
Do each of you have summary posts you want me to point DDM and Griffin to?
 
Agnaa said:
Do each of you have summary posts you want me to point DDM and Griffin to?
Click to expand...
I don't know, but my comments are all there, but anyway I would like this to end quickly, we've already passed 48 hours and I don't want to get involved with repetitive arguments any longer.
 
@DarkDragonMedeus @LordGriffin1000 Counterarguments to the OP have been made, and so have responses to those counterarguments. Please read through them and let us know whether they change your view on this thread or not.
 
As I already mentioned before, Lucifer's statements weren't solid to me, I agreed with possibly but now there seems to be a cosmology issue about Hell being inside Earth and so on. I suggest a Cosmology blog be made explaining the universe before any upgrades are made so those of us who haven't played the game know when someone is referring to the actual "universe".
 
LordGriffin1000 said:
As I already mentioned before, Lucifer's statements weren't solid to me, I agreed with possibly but now there seems to be a cosmology issue about Hell being inside Earth and so on. I suggest a Cosmology blog be made explaining the universe before any upgrades are made so those of us who haven't played the game know when someone is referring to the actual "universe".
Click to expand...
Well, I don't know how to write a blog, but when I learn it properly I'll make one, it will definitely take a long time for me to do it

But part of hell is on earth, that's pretty funny, in fact there is a break in hell in a church for Dante to pass through, but his physical place is in the center of the Universe, you can go to multiple plans through portals, besides Dante being able to leave hell itself through a portal beneath his feet
 
LuffyRuffy46307 said:
Well, I don't know how to write a blog, but when I learn it properly I'll make one, it will definitely take a long time for me to do it

But part of hell is on earth, that's pretty funny, in fact there is a break in hell in a church for Dante to pass through, but his physical place is in the center of the Universe, you can go to multiple plans through portals, besides Dante being able to leave hell itself through a portal beneath his feet
Click to expand...

1. That's beacuse a literal chasm opens up for Dante to go into the Inferno and from there starts making his way down. Nothing to do with portals. That is literally headcanon.

2. Just beacuse there are portals in Inferno itself that take you to other places doesen't make it a universe. What kind of logic is that.

3. Also Inferno being in the centre of the universe is literally beacuse the Earth itself is in the centre of the universe in Dante's Inferno universe.

Maybe i will make that Cosmology blog when i have time.
 
Last edited:
CorneredHarbor said:
1. That's beacuse a literal chasm opens up for Dante to go into the Inferno and from there starts making his way down. Nothing to do with portals. That is literally headcanon.
Click to expand...
This just shows that hell is connected to the earth and not that it is right below it
CorneredHarbor said:
2. Just beacuse there are portals in Inferno itself that take you to other places doesen't make it a universe. What kind of logic is that.
Click to expand...
I never claimed that by having a portal there would be a Universe, but rather that there are portals connecting each cycle of the underworld, just like the earth
CorneredHarbor said:
3. Also Inferno being in the centre of the universe is literally beacuse the Earth itself is in the centre of the universe in Dante's Inferno universe.
Click to expand...
In fact, we are never told where earth is, but rather that hell is located in the center of the Universe, what you mentioned has nothing to do with the quotes
 
LuffyRuffy46307 said:
This just shows that hell is connected to the earth and not that it is right below it
Click to expand...
There is no proof or statements of any kind that indicate this. We just see the chasm open up and Dante entering it. From there he just goes deeper and deeper. Again, this notion is just headcanon. I get what you are trying to say but that is just not the case with Dante's Inferno. For example in God of War you can enter and exit The Underworld (which is it's own universe) through certain holes in the earth. The difference is God of War actually has hard proof (including developer statements) to back this up. In Dante's Inferno Hell is blatantly inside Earth.

LuffyRuffy46307 said:
I never claimed that by having a portal there would be a Universe, but rather that there are portals connecting each cycle of the underworld, just like the earth
Click to expand...
Uhm, okay? Also Gluttony is the only place that contains portals and that is literally in a single room. As for the portal in Treachery it is the same as in the original poem. At the end of Inferno there is a way to Purgatory. Nothing ground breaking here.

LuffyRuffy46307 said:
In fact, we are never told where earth is, but rather that hell is located in the center of the Universe, what you mentioned has nothing to do with the quotes
Click to expand...
Virgil's line that says Inferno is in the center of the universe is clearly refering to the original poem where it is stated that The Earth is in the centre of the universe. Furthermore, in the time in which Dante's inferno takes place 1189-1192 people actually belived earth was the centre of the universe. Even when the original poem was written in 1308 to 1321 that was also the case. Considering Dante's Inferno takes the view of christain people of the time as truth, earth would indeed be in the centre. Anyway, the most important aspect of this is the direct statement of the original poem which perfectly coincides with Vergil's statement in the game.


And just to clarify the original poem is very important to the scaling of this game. Vergil who gives away most of this games lore has dialouge that is all directly from the the first part of the poem, the game is extremely faithful to the poem in terms of cosmology and the game even uses some quotes from the poem in random places from Dante himself or when you die. What i am getting at here is that the original poem can be used as a reliable secondary source when it comes to certain things such as cosmology.


Anyway, it is best to discuss this when one of us makes the cosmology blog. There i will have all the scans.
 
LuffyRuffy46307 said:
Do you really play the game? Because it doesn't look like that, he goes through a kind of portal located below him to go to that location
Click to expand...

I have, have you played the game? I ask because that’s the only way I can see someone missing the multiple statements Hell is within the Earth and the universe itself.

Even then, portals don’t nullify the idea Hell is within the universe itself, simply that it’s possible to travel between layers of the cosmos with greater ease than just walking. What is more important is you’d need to prove the consistent dev statements and the statements from Virgil (that Hell is within the Earth) are wrong directly.

Also, if we do upgrade Lucifer, this would need to be applied to Dante and Death and not just slapped onto one character’s page
 
As I said, poem is a third party thing, it is not related to the work which is very different and has different events, we do not use other works to refute another
 
Vergil never mentioned that hell is on earth, but rather the Universe is at the center, but once, the two of you bringing things from poem to game that is different, the work and the poem are totally different

I applied all things to Lucifer because he is the only one who scales with the destruction of the Universe, I don't see how Dante or death scales with that.

Once again, the portals are for exiting the cycles and entering hell, they are even used to exit it, as demonstrated in this Scan that I showed just above

Saying that hell is below the earth will not refute the fact that it is at the center of the Universe and is the size of the Universe, if you are going to bring any evidence, try to show it and not just your statements that cannot be supported in the work.
 
After that I won't respond anymore, I'm tired of refuting your points and you using third party poems to belittle the work
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

ByArrow
Arrowverse CRT: High 3-A Lucifer
Replies
33
Views
3K
Baabasaplar95
Baabasaplar95
Joshyyy_64
Lucifero Gets AP Upgrades
Replies
22
Views
1K
Testarossa002
Testarossa002
Joshyyy_64
  • Locked
(: Dante AP Upgrades :)
2
Replies
51
Views
3K
LephyrTheRevanchist
LephyrTheRevanchist
Lightning_XXI
DMC New Profiles and a Minor Addition
Replies
25
Views
3K
ShionAH
ShionAH
Mister6ame6
Maybe a DMC2, DMC4 and DMC5 Characters Upgrade
2
Replies
53
Views
5K
Random-Helper323
Random-Helper323
Back
Top