-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Dante (DMC Reboot) vs Sam Winchester (3 More Votes)
- Thread starter Nico-v11
- Start date
- 12,653
- 2,433
@rebu if sam stands with abilities that work on demons of that caliber then Dante can't win at all if speed was unequalized Dante would have all the time in the world tbf in order to blitz and kill sam but again...speed stomp or thought stomp
- 63,529
- 8,506
Dante talks and blitzes
- 12,653
- 2,433
this tbhGargoyle One said:
- 7,330
- 1,302
At the same time, Sam performed that exorcism feat once. Any other time prior to that he barely used it. In fact, from the start he barely used it and I don't think to that extent either. He needed to chug a lot of blood, and it'll probably be noticed that he's not exactly human from that.
- 20,080
- 10,865
@COB Sam uses the mind killing ability more than the exorcism. Not to mention this is him AFTER he chugged a lot of demon blood.
- 6,279
- 1,157
- Thread starter
- #52
This is when he had to drink enough blood to become Lucifer's vessel which is a ton more than what was needed to kill Lilith (Supernatural)
- 7,330
- 1,302
Yeah so not exactly something that cries out "hey I'm just a normal guy, you should just swear at me like usual Dante ripoff" or something.
Not to mention that exorcism works on the fact that these are those dark embodiments in one's mind. Remember? The ghostly mist? Can we even say it would work on Dante whose concept of demons are already different from how demons are in Supernatural. Is there a ghostly mist for Sam to exorcise in his mind?
Not to mention that exorcism works on the fact that these are those dark embodiments in one's mind. Remember? The ghostly mist? Can we even say it would work on Dante whose concept of demons are already different from how demons are in Supernatural. Is there a ghostly mist for Sam to exorcise in his mind?
- 20,080
- 10,865
@COB They're still demons at the end of the day. It doesn't really matter if they're must or not. The fact remains that Sam can easily kind crush Donte with his demonic powers.
- 7,330
- 1,302
@Glassman
Can we say the same for when Sam faces something like Naruto? Or any other demon who works under different mechanics? Demons in Supernatural can be trapped in salt circles and are not so easily killed. Heck Dante is more human than Demon usually. To claim Sam's exorcism would work on every demon is a far cry. Especially considering that Supernatural demons are known to be already very different from conventional demons.
If the demonic aspect is parasitic (like Devilman or something) I would be inclined to agree. But considering
A) Dante is not even a full demon
B) We don't see much of the exorcism
C) Said demons affected by the exorcisms could be mooks for all we care
D) Said demons work on a very different mechanics compared to most demons and especially to Dante
Those kinda conflict
Can we say the same for when Sam faces something like Naruto? Or any other demon who works under different mechanics? Demons in Supernatural can be trapped in salt circles and are not so easily killed. Heck Dante is more human than Demon usually. To claim Sam's exorcism would work on every demon is a far cry. Especially considering that Supernatural demons are known to be already very different from conventional demons.
If the demonic aspect is parasitic (like Devilman or something) I would be inclined to agree. But considering
A) Dante is not even a full demon
B) We don't see much of the exorcism
C) Said demons affected by the exorcisms could be mooks for all we care
D) Said demons work on a very different mechanics compared to most demons and especially to Dante
Those kinda conflict
- 20,080
- 10,865
@COB He doesn't use exorcism, he just kills them with his mind. And he CAN use it on those with partial demonic blood. Not to mention verse equalization is a thing for these types of matches.
- 7,330
- 1,302
Citations please? Even the wiki seems to agree that it's exorcism. Not destroying the mind. Not to mention if it was destroying the mind, it would be very helpful against other monsters that aren't just demonic and would have little reason to not work on humans or any others. Unless that specific powerset granted to him by a demon, only works on demons of his kind.
Except to what extent is verse equalization reaching? I can understand if it's like magic vs science or if such a thing like reiatsu crushing or whatever that thing in Bleach is used that makes it unfair. This one seems reaching. You have to ignore so many factors, and then immediately aim for the idea that Sam would use this ability, on a guy who looks like a punk. It relies on too much conditions.
Also is it really verse equalization considering how different demons are to other demons in another verse? We're not gonna claim this guy is equal to this guy in terms of traits and capabilities. It's a bit unjust to say. Verse equalization is not necessary and doesn't make sense here.
Also on one hand, Dante could just pull off his guns and shoot at Sam. That's a quick end right there.
Except to what extent is verse equalization reaching? I can understand if it's like magic vs science or if such a thing like reiatsu crushing or whatever that thing in Bleach is used that makes it unfair. This one seems reaching. You have to ignore so many factors, and then immediately aim for the idea that Sam would use this ability, on a guy who looks like a punk. It relies on too much conditions.
Also is it really verse equalization considering how different demons are to other demons in another verse? We're not gonna claim this guy is equal to this guy in terms of traits and capabilities. It's a bit unjust to say. Verse equalization is not necessary and doesn't make sense here.
Also on one hand, Dante could just pull off his guns and shoot at Sam. That's a quick end right there.
- 6,279
- 1,157
- Thread starter
- #58
No, verse equalization works fine here. It's demons so it fits the bill perfectly. Also Sam rarely exorcises anymore since the demon likely already killed the vessel, and yes Sam's powers are specifically demon smiting so it's just Sam smiting the demon.
Doesn't matter really if their mechanics differ, but I would agree that exorcism wouldn't work but Sam isn't gonna do that.
Pretty sure Sam in this state can easily tell whether someone is a demon or not, he's killed all kinds of looking monsters so kill this Dante would be no different
Doesn't matter really if their mechanics differ, but I would agree that exorcism wouldn't work but Sam isn't gonna do that.
Pretty sure Sam in this state can easily tell whether someone is a demon or not, he's killed all kinds of looking monsters so kill this Dante would be no different
- 12,653
- 2,433
ok so let's make it clear here. Is this excorsism or just crush the mind with a thought to destroy demons? If the latter stomp as sam can just think and Dante's a goner based on this loose criteria. If the the former then idk its likely to be less effective due to Dante being half angel
- 4,868
- 1,314
Tbh I'm leaning towards retracting my vote until the mind stuff for Sam is settled.
- 7,330
- 1,302
Just woke up
We seem to have very different understanding of how far verse equalization can go here. We can't do that. If it's the case that "If this guy kills this demon or can seal demons, it's likely that this would work on another demon in this verse" then it's a bit likelier. But we have way too many things to assume about the gaps between the demons. How similar are they? Not at all. How powerful is Sam's 'mental stuff'? It's powerful but it's only been used properly against demon mooks. We have no idea if it would work on a half angel like Dante.
That's fine.
Really? Since when? That said, Dante would be in the same situation where he'll identify that Sam is not exactly normal
In any case Nico, why is it that such an ability was never used against non-demonic things. I once again repeat, there are far too many factors here that conflict. If there was only one factor that affects such as if Dante was a full demon and Sam used that feat more I would say it works on him. But again, that's not the case. We're already talking about a feat that was only used against demons to 'exorcisse' demons possessing the body. It doesn't matter if it outright kills the aspect of demon or ghost inside the body. The issue is that his enemy is not even a full demon and is part angelic, so that makes things a complicated mess. Also if Sam used this ability on an angel it probably wouldn't work anyway considering how powerful angels are. Are we gonna apply verse equalization too and say that Dante is resistant because he's part angel? In that case he really does become untouchable.
Also I repeat. What exactly stops Dante from pulling the trigger the same time he gets 'mind attacked'? Regardless of whether that thing would kill him or not, Sam would likely die and thus it would end up as a tie or Dante.
We seem to have very different understanding of how far verse equalization can go here. We can't do that. If it's the case that "If this guy kills this demon or can seal demons, it's likely that this would work on another demon in this verse" then it's a bit likelier. But we have way too many things to assume about the gaps between the demons. How similar are they? Not at all. How powerful is Sam's 'mental stuff'? It's powerful but it's only been used properly against demon mooks. We have no idea if it would work on a half angel like Dante.
That's fine.
Really? Since when? That said, Dante would be in the same situation where he'll identify that Sam is not exactly normal
In any case Nico, why is it that such an ability was never used against non-demonic things. I once again repeat, there are far too many factors here that conflict. If there was only one factor that affects such as if Dante was a full demon and Sam used that feat more I would say it works on him. But again, that's not the case. We're already talking about a feat that was only used against demons to 'exorcisse' demons possessing the body. It doesn't matter if it outright kills the aspect of demon or ghost inside the body. The issue is that his enemy is not even a full demon and is part angelic, so that makes things a complicated mess. Also if Sam used this ability on an angel it probably wouldn't work anyway considering how powerful angels are. Are we gonna apply verse equalization too and say that Dante is resistant because he's part angel? In that case he really does become untouchable.
Also I repeat. What exactly stops Dante from pulling the trigger the same time he gets 'mind attacked'? Regardless of whether that thing would kill him or not, Sam would likely die and thus it would end up as a tie or Dante.
- 6,279
- 1,157
- Thread starter
- #63
He doesn't use this ability on non-Demons because it only works on Demons (the telekinesis does work on others though).
Also he killed Lilith (Supernatural) who was the oldest demon, a 7-B and was arguably much more powerful than the average Angel. Also considering that Sam killed her before he had drank enough blood to become Lucifer's vessel which was much more.
The power is literally just "killing demons" nothing more. Doesn't really affect anything else except with telekinesis. Special Children have demon blood so the whole point is that Sam has a sort of "control" over demons so to speak.
I say verse equalization works perfectly fine for allowing Demon only affecting powers affect other demons from other verses. Considering the powers of special children ca affect other special children who have demon blood then Sam's powers would work on a half demon.
Also he killed Lilith (Supernatural) who was the oldest demon, a 7-B and was arguably much more powerful than the average Angel. Also considering that Sam killed her before he had drank enough blood to become Lucifer's vessel which was much more.
The power is literally just "killing demons" nothing more. Doesn't really affect anything else except with telekinesis. Special Children have demon blood so the whole point is that Sam has a sort of "control" over demons so to speak.
I say verse equalization works perfectly fine for allowing Demon only affecting powers affect other demons from other verses. Considering the powers of special children ca affect other special children who have demon blood then Sam's powers would work on a half demon.
- 7,330
- 1,302
Then we can't even be sure if it would work fully on non-demons or part angelic beings
There, that's a bit better then. Though that still doesn't neglect the other issues and how he could be at best matching or on the other hand too much considering Lucifer is very very powerful.
My point still stands. It's still only capable of taking out those demon things that have to possess someone. I doubt it would work on actual physical demons like wendigos or actual demons that don't possess people like ghosts, which by the way, was pointed out on the similarities namely in that one Crowley focused episode.
But only those specific demon blood. Of a certain specific demon. To say it would definitely work on a half demon, no less an actual part angel, kinda raises issues.
I mean you either have
1) Verse equalization not allowed, Sam has no proof of being able to affect demons that are physical
2) It's allowed, and he can affect the demonic aspect of Dante, but on the other hand he's also part angel which I doubt would be affected by such powers in Sam's verse.
So all in all, it equates out.
There, that's a bit better then. Though that still doesn't neglect the other issues and how he could be at best matching or on the other hand too much considering Lucifer is very very powerful.
My point still stands. It's still only capable of taking out those demon things that have to possess someone. I doubt it would work on actual physical demons like wendigos or actual demons that don't possess people like ghosts, which by the way, was pointed out on the similarities namely in that one Crowley focused episode.
But only those specific demon blood. Of a certain specific demon. To say it would definitely work on a half demon, no less an actual part angel, kinda raises issues.
I mean you either have
1) Verse equalization not allowed, Sam has no proof of being able to affect demons that are physical
2) It's allowed, and he can affect the demonic aspect of Dante, but on the other hand he's also part angel which I doubt would be affected by such powers in Sam's verse.
So all in all, it equates out.
- 6,279
- 1,157
- Thread starter
- #65
He kills demons while within a Vessel which is for all intents and purposes physical. He kills what they are which really is just a corrupted soul. So he'd just be killing Dante and his soul.
Being half Angel doesn't mean he's immune to demon affecting abilities. If you can prove that he's immune to something that affects demons then ok, however because he's a demon he would be subject to attacks that harm demons.
Just because you're part something else it doesn't automatically make you immune to attacks that affect a part of what you are unless specified within verse.
Again verse equalization works especially with Sam's powers being demon oriented in general
Being half Angel doesn't mean he's immune to demon affecting abilities. If you can prove that he's immune to something that affects demons then ok, however because he's a demon he would be subject to attacks that harm demons.
Just because you're part something else it doesn't automatically make you immune to attacks that affect a part of what you are unless specified within verse.
Again verse equalization works especially with Sam's powers being demon oriented in general
- 7,330
- 1,302
The demon is a possessive gas cloud. I don't think that's physical considerin we can't even touch them. The demons are far too dissimilar to just easily say you can equalize them. Except the part where Dante is kinda angelic too.
Have you seen Sam's ability work on an angel? Look if you're insisting on verse equalization all I'm doing is doing that. Angels are not demons, and considering how Nephilims are treated in Supernatural, they're pretty strong.
Except it kinda does in Supernatural regarding Nephilims. Of course we're also talking about an ability that Sam used waaay back then. So already hard to gauge from the start. Also in that case I'd like to point out, just because something is a demon in one verse, doesn't make them fit the criteria to be called a demon in another verse, even with verse equalization. This is like trying to say "these two completely different species but have the same name must be equal to each other" when it's clearly not the case.
I repeat again. Angelic aspect.
Have you seen Sam's ability work on an angel? Look if you're insisting on verse equalization all I'm doing is doing that. Angels are not demons, and considering how Nephilims are treated in Supernatural, they're pretty strong.
Except it kinda does in Supernatural regarding Nephilims. Of course we're also talking about an ability that Sam used waaay back then. So already hard to gauge from the start. Also in that case I'd like to point out, just because something is a demon in one verse, doesn't make them fit the criteria to be called a demon in another verse, even with verse equalization. This is like trying to say "these two completely different species but have the same name must be equal to each other" when it's clearly not the case.
I repeat again. Angelic aspect.
- 7,330
- 1,302
Also will point out. I would agree with you, but there's far too many criterias still untouched
1) Dante is only half a demon
2) Dante can pull off his guns and shoot Sam the same time he thinks of killing Dante
3) It's questionable if it would even work on a 'demon' from DMC considering different fundemental ways of working
4) It's questionable on whether it would even work on 'angels' so by verse equalization, things fall apart even more for Sam
I'm saying this as someone who likes Sam more btw
1) Dante is only half a demon
2) Dante can pull off his guns and shoot Sam the same time he thinks of killing Dante
3) It's questionable if it would even work on a 'demon' from DMC considering different fundemental ways of working
4) It's questionable on whether it would even work on 'angels' so by verse equalization, things fall apart even more for Sam
I'm saying this as someone who likes Sam more btw
- 6,279
- 1,157
- Thread starter
- #68
1. There's no proof that being half of something else makes you immune to something that affects half of what you are.
2. That's an argument for the match. Has nothing to do with what we're talking about.
3. I have no doubt that verse equalization would allow a demon killing attack to kill demons of other verses. Keyword being "demon" regardless of how they are. Especially since Sam kills them at a much deeper level than just a physical demon.
4. Doesn't work on Angels but go back to point one.
There are no Angel/Demon hybrids in Supernatural. In Supernatural Nephilims are cross breeds between Angels and Humans only so that arguement is defunct.
2. That's an argument for the match. Has nothing to do with what we're talking about.
3. I have no doubt that verse equalization would allow a demon killing attack to kill demons of other verses. Keyword being "demon" regardless of how they are. Especially since Sam kills them at a much deeper level than just a physical demon.
4. Doesn't work on Angels but go back to point one.
There are no Angel/Demon hybrids in Supernatural. In Supernatural Nephilims are cross breeds between Angels and Humans only so that arguement is defunct.
- 7,330
- 1,302
1) There's also no proof of 'exact similarities' between ghastly demons from Supernatural who have been compared to ghosts and can be killed in a similar way, to physical demons that seem to mutate and form from nothing and is more physical demon than actual ghosts.
2) Fair point
3) So he eradicates them similar to burning their bodies. Kills them, alright. But again, back to point 1. Verse Equalization does not apply to two very distinct species that work in different mechanics. They're similar in being deadly to humans, being evil, but they're not comparable in how they are. Demons amp up humans by parasitically clinging on their bodies. Demons in DMC are much more physical and are not as vulnerable to exorcisms on the first place. I'm not saying what Sam did is exorcism, but I find great doubts on applying this to other verses like say Naruto or Blue Exorcist.
4) Back to point one too.
Oh yeah it's different, forgot about that. But that still leaves the point of "Would this even work against Angels" and the whole issue. It's not gonna work on something that's only partly demon whose species are also so very very different to the actual species it's supposed to work on.
2) Fair point
3) So he eradicates them similar to burning their bodies. Kills them, alright. But again, back to point 1. Verse Equalization does not apply to two very distinct species that work in different mechanics. They're similar in being deadly to humans, being evil, but they're not comparable in how they are. Demons amp up humans by parasitically clinging on their bodies. Demons in DMC are much more physical and are not as vulnerable to exorcisms on the first place. I'm not saying what Sam did is exorcism, but I find great doubts on applying this to other verses like say Naruto or Blue Exorcist.
4) Back to point one too.
Oh yeah it's different, forgot about that. But that still leaves the point of "Would this even work against Angels" and the whole issue. It's not gonna work on something that's only partly demon whose species are also so very very different to the actual species it's supposed to work on.
- 6,279
- 1,157
- Thread starter
- #70
1. Doesn't really matter. They're still demons. Sam can still affect them while in a physical body, torturing them or killing them as is. So it would still work on physical demons of other verses. Like I've said before since a demon in Supernatural is basically just a soul then he's killing that soul. For Dante he'd just be killing his soul.
3. He's done the burning thing before but once he's gotten enough blood he can just "zap" them. The video I posted explains what I mean. We need another opinion or thread about this since this is a bigger issue than just this match.
I've said it before, unless Dante has shown resistance to demon attacks then he should still be able to be subject to them since he's at the very least half demon.
3. He's done the burning thing before but once he's gotten enough blood he can just "zap" them. The video I posted explains what I mean. We need another opinion or thread about this since this is a bigger issue than just this match.
I've said it before, unless Dante has shown resistance to demon attacks then he should still be able to be subject to them since he's at the very least half demon.
- 12,653
- 2,433
i wouldn't exactly call it a vote unless dante has some method of winning which hasn't been proven properly i would say not yet due to me leaning to a stomp rather than a decisive match
- 7,330
- 1,302
Huh forgot about this, either way was there a thread made for the possible revision yet or at least discussion?
And I don't know, you seem pretty adamant about Sam winning with a simple thought so uh... yeah..
And I don't know, you seem pretty adamant about Sam winning with a simple thought so uh... yeah..
- 6,279
- 1,157
- Thread starter
- #76
Proof that Sam can hurt partial demons or even something that has demon in it:
https://youtu.be/FoFYV5rMyzE (2:10)
Sam takes down the Horsemen Famine. Famine even states that Sam's powers won't work on Famine since Famine is not a demon and Sam acknowledges this. However since Famine had eaten all of the demons Sam is now capable of taking down Famine.
Ok so Sam does in fact NOT kill Famine, this is because Horsemen are absurdly hard to kill and is not a negative towards Sam's powers. Horsemen have type 8 immortality, Famine requires well "famine" to stop existing in order to die. Sam just incapacitated him.
https://youtu.be/FoFYV5rMyzE (2:10)
Sam takes down the Horsemen Famine. Famine even states that Sam's powers won't work on Famine since Famine is not a demon and Sam acknowledges this. However since Famine had eaten all of the demons Sam is now capable of taking down Famine.
Ok so Sam does in fact NOT kill Famine, this is because Horsemen are absurdly hard to kill and is not a negative towards Sam's powers. Horsemen have type 8 immortality, Famine requires well "famine" to stop existing in order to die. Sam just incapacitated him.
- 7,330
- 1,302
He looks like an amalgamation of demon spirits... Not to mention he still targeted the demons inside, and not specifically the aspect of Famine itself. You said so yourself.
Also.... if Sam can easily do everything you say then that means this battle is a stomp.
Also.... if Sam can easily do everything you say then that means this battle is a stomp.
- 6,279
- 1,157
- Thread starter
- #78
What? No the Horsemen aren't demons at all. The point is targeting the demon part. Saying Famine is an amalgamation of demons is the same as saying Death (Supernatural) is, which he isn't.
Ok maybe it's a stomp. This can be closed then. Do you think you can help pick someone Sam can have a match with?
Ok maybe it's a stomp. This can be closed then. Do you think you can help pick someone Sam can have a match with?
- 7,330
- 1,302
No I mean the stuff that was placed inside him. But we can discuss that in CRT or something. You know, since he ate demon souls.
Fair nuff and well Sam is always tricky to find.... SPN is tricky like that. And yeah this is a stomp from two different directions so fire away.
Fair nuff and well Sam is always tricky to find.... SPN is tricky like that. And yeah this is a stomp from two different directions so fire away.
- 6,279
- 1,157
- Thread starter
- #80
I've got a big CRT for Supernatural coming up anyway so I guess.....still I think it's that Famine ate and pretty much had "become" part demon, or basically had demon in him allowed Sam take him out.
Similar to how humans eat meat they gain the protein of it and the meat "becomes" a part of the person. Temporarily of course until it exits the body.
Similar to how humans eat meat they gain the protein of it and the meat "becomes" a part of the person. Temporarily of course until it exits the body.
