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Danmaku Rework & Revisions

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Quibster

Quibster

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The Danmaku ability page desperately needs an update.

I'm proposing the following changes be applied effective immediately (sandbox link below). Corrections will be made as needed if need be. I've procured visual aids in the form of GIFs for the page, some terminology and contextual meanings for the term "Danmaku" (and its associated terms), as well as examples of modern and traditional instances of the ability in media. Also for the record, the "Possible Uses" section is not intended to be a type-system like what the Conceptual page has going on. Anywho...

I also want to address the standards for Danmaku as per the "Requirements" section in my sandbox, with the goal of achieving an updated and general consensus in light of this rework.

Lastly, I'm also proposing that Rambo have his Danmaku rating removed entirely from his page and the Danmaku page.

Note: This is my first CRT since last year. Please be patient, thanks!

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Quibster/DanmakuRevised

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AGREE: Theglassman12, DarkDragonMedeus, Antvasima, CurrySenpai, LordGriffin1000, Mr. Bambu, CloverDragon03

DISAGREE:

CONTINUE? [10... 9... 8... ]:
 
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First off, amazing page, It's looks very well made and has lots of very nice references. I agree with most of the stuff on here however I believe it can be improved in a few ways, which are mostly just my personal opinion, but that I still believe are valid complaints. Firstly, I believe that there shouldn't be uncertainty in the number of projectiles needed to obtain Danmaku as an ability, therefore we should choose either 20 or 24 projectiles to be the baseline for it. I'm personally favorable to 24 since "create dozens of projectiles" sounds better than "create tens of projectiles", it fits more into the linguistics of the English language basically. I also believe "Conventional firearms and non-military weaponry, such as those in the real world, do not usually apply" is unnecessary to add because, given certain conditions, they could absolutely apply for Danmaku so it should be removed from the draft. Secondly, I absolutely believe we should implement a system similar to the social influencing where we specify in the page what type of Danmaku a character has, since it can vastly affect how battles can play out in a vs. style fight as well as helping to better categorize what exactly a character is capable of doing with their Danmaku. I would change it up a bit from your initial draft however and instead change it to something like this which has more freedom for categorization and doesn't result in one character being able to have multiple different categories. This is just a rough draft with no in depth analysis but it serves as a rough basis of what my idea is.

Variants of Danmaku
  • Singular Point - Danmaku produced from a singular origin point, usually restricted to the user or the direct vicinity of the user. This can include single or multiple sources of Danmaku as long as they all come from a similar point of origin.

  • Multiple Points - Danmaku produced from multiple points independent from the direct vicinity of the user. This type can usually span large distances and multiple different directions independent from the user of the Danmaku, and can include or admit single point Danmaku.
Additionally, each of these categories would be given one of three classifications to further cement the exact extent of their Danmaku.
  • Un-controlled- Danmaku which is completely independent once fired from it's user. Cannot be influenced in any meaningful way after being shot from it's point of origin.
  • Controlled - Danmaku which can be controlled by its user once it has been fired. Degree of control can vary in strength but in general must maintain a degree of control greater than what is commonly associated with normal fired projectiles.
  • Mixed - Danmaku which can be either un-controlled or controlled by its user. This type can encompass multiple different situations such as users having multiple different types of Danmaku that behave differently, or users who can only control their Danmaku after certain condition are met.
In practice it would look something like this.

Piccolo: Danmaku (Singular Point: Controlled)

Ryomen Sukuna: Danmaku (Multiple Points: Mixed)

Gilgamesh: Danmaku (Multiple Points: Un-controlled)

Reimu Hakurei: Danmaku (Singular Point: Mixed)

As you can see it is quite flexible and allows for proper categorization of a wide variety of different conditions and situations. I apologize if I got any of these characters Danmaku type wrong as I'm not familiar with any of then besides Piccolo. Anyways, that is my pitch for the new system as well as my critiques for the new page, let me know what you all think.
 
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Tomfer said:
"Iowa-class Battleship (The Real World)" goes to the Touhou's page-verse, lmao.
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cant believe I didn't notice this until a couple of hours ago, lol

fixed!

Tomfer said:
Besides that small error, I don't agree with the usage of that many gifs. Make it a gallery and put everything into it or choose one of them. The rest seems fine and I agree.
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Yeah that's fair! I've gone ahead and pooled the collected GIFs in a Gallery section. Any further formating/adjustments can be made if needed. Feel free to check it and get back with me if there's anything glaring about it!

Also, two new example gifs have been created by me and added to the gallery to visually even-out the section.

FuriousFieryFist said:
Firstly, I believe that there shouldn't be uncertainty in the number of projectiles needed to obtain Danmaku as an ability, therefore we should choose either 20 or 24 projectiles to be the baseline for it. I'm personally favorable to 24 since "create dozens of projectiles" sounds better than "create tens of projectiles", it fits more into the linguistics of the English language basically.
Click to expand...
So this has been discussed in the past as a minimum baseline. Staff input would need to weigh in on this for an updated take (which I'll start asking for today), since that is the current site standard for Danmaku.

FuriousFieryFist said:
I also believe "Conventional firearms and non-military weaponry, such as those in the real world, do not usually apply" is unnecessary to add because, given certain conditions, they could absolutely apply for Danmaku so it should be removed from the draft.
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Emphasis on the "...such as those in the real world..." portion on that note. With how the note is written, it's to be intended case-by-case and to introduce an idea of standards for the ability. This is also a standard on the current page.

In the past, Somalian Pirates have been given Danmaku via machine guns, which... isn't really danmaku at all. It's just bullets from firearms that are being sprayed. There's also been instances of attacks attaining a solid rating for what are effectively AoE's and nothing more. Tangetially related, Rambo's rating took the "bullets on screen" portion literally, to what is effectively just an Bullet Mine AoE that was detonated off-screen.

Anyways, I disagree with this for now. Staff input is going to be important on this end though.

FuriousFieryFist said:
Secondly, I absolutely believe we should implement a system similar to the social influencing where we specify in the page what type of Danmaku a character has, since it can vastly affect how battles can play out in a vs. style fight as well as helping to better categorize what exactly a character is capable of doing with their Danmaku. I would change it up a bit from your initial draft however and instead change it to something like this which has more freedom for categorization and doesn't result in one character being able to have multiple different categories.
Click to expand...
I do agree on a social influencing based system. I'll need some help with formatting, beyond that, I want to suggest that we generalize it as best we can, and lessen the use of flowery language for the sake of simplicity. So people dont go: oh, "patterned attacks??" DANMAKU??!!"

FuriousFieryFist said:
This is just a rough draft with no in depth analysis but it serves as a rough basis of what my idea is.
Click to expand...
It's a start for sure. However I can see this being discussed back-and-forth for a majority of this thread. Keeping it simple and not dividing types into both categories and subcategories may be the best route to take. I can see it causing some dissonance in match threads. it may be best to keep this simplified.
 
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What I'd say others already have, my problem is remembering to even put the dang things in in the first place.

Agree.
 
Quibster said:
So this has been discussed in the past as a minimum baseline. Staff input would need to weigh in on this for an updated take (which I'll start asking for today), since that is the current site standard for Danmaku.
Click to expand...
I'm aware what it is, I just think we should establish one value or the other as the minimum baseline instead of leaving it somewhat uncertain like it is now.
Quibster said:
Emphasis on the "...such as those in the real world..." portion on that note. With how the note is written, it's intended case-by-case and to introduce an idea of standards for the ability. This is also a standard on the current page.

In the past, Somalian Pirates have been given Danmaku via machine guns, which... isn't really danmaku at all. It's just bullets from firearms that are being sprayed. There's also been instances of attacks attaining a solid rating for what are effectively AoE's and nothing more. Tangetially related, Rambo's rating took the "bullets on screen" portion literally, to what is effectively just an Bullet Mine AoE that was detonated off-screen.

Anyways, I disagree with this for now. Staff input is going to be important on this end though.
Click to expand...
I understand that line of reasoning. But they could still qualify if a person fires several types of guns at the same time or has them mounted on a vehicle to where they fire at the same time. On that note as well, even most military weaponry wouldn't qualify for Danmaku do to the extreme speed at which they are fired out of the barrel rendering the distance between each one to much to qualify for Danmaku. In general I think it would be better to remove this because it gives the impression that "Military grade = Danmaku" and "Non- Military Grade = No Danmaku" which is not true 100% of the time. Instead in should simply be case by case like we do everything else on the wiki.
Quibster said:
I do agree on a social influencing based system. I'll need some help with formatting, beyond that, I want to suggest that we generalize it as best we can, and lessen the use of flowery language for the sake of simplicity. So people dont go: oh, "patterned attacks??" DANMAKU??!!"


It's a start for sure. However I can see this being discussed back-and-forth for a majority of this thread. Keeping it simple and not dividing types into both categories and subcategories may be the best route to take. I can see it causing some dissonance in match threads. it may be best to keep this simplified.
Click to expand...
I agree, I don't want this to be a wiki wide change so instead I propose we treat it like the social influencing page where it's encouraged to put on your profile but not necessary
 
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Oryx, The Mad God

Tier: 8-C | At least 8-A, likely far higher | At least 8-A, likely far higher; higher in Exalted Form Key: Simulacrum | O2 | O3 Name: Oryx, the Mad God | Oryx, the Mad God | Oryx, the Mad God, Oryx, the Exalted God Origin: Realm of the Mad God Gender: Male Age: At least Millions of years (Has...
vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com

Can someone take a peek at the Standard Tactics section and fell me what kind of danmaku each form has?
 
CloverDragon03 said:
Since we're here, can we give DBS Gogeta Danmaku? I feel like Stardust Fall speaks for itself...
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Yeah it's pretty explicit in execution and would meet the minimum imo. I even contemplated using that instead of Broly's attack, since SS Broly (Super) actually has a Danmaku rating on this site.

Edit: Wait, Gogeta already has a rating. It's just in his Blue form lol
 
DaReaperMan said:
vsbattles.fandom.com

Oryx, The Mad God

Tier: 8-C | At least 8-A, likely far higher | At least 8-A, likely far higher; higher in Exalted Form Key: Simulacrum | O2 | O3 Name: Oryx, the Mad God | Oryx, the Mad God | Oryx, the Mad God, Oryx, the Exalted God Origin: Realm of the Mad God Gender: Male Age: At least Millions of years (Has...
vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com

Can someone take a peek at the Standard Tactics section and fell me what kind of danmaku each form has?
Click to expand...
Drunk seem to be Multiple Points: Uncontrolled, since he fires shotgun like blast from himself before later summoning orbs that fire omnidirectional blasts all around. Interestingly he only gains access to proper levels required for Danmaku after splitting multiple times. I might have to specify in singular point that making clones of yourself and then firing from different areas would still only count as singular point Danmaku. Same with the second fight as his attacks dont really gain any new abilities, they just get more frequent. His third phase seems to be Multiple Points: Mixed since he gains a ton of new projectiles, most spawning from thin air and some of which he can control to spin in circles or move in set patterns.
 
FuriousFieryFist said:
Drunk seem to be Multiple Points: Uncontrolled, since he fires shotgun like blast from himself before later summoning orbs that fire omnidirectional blasts all around. Interestingly he only gains access to proper levels required for Danmaku after splitting multiple times. I might have to specify in singular point that making clones of yourself and then firing from different areas would still only count as singular point Danmaku. Same with the second fight as his attacks dont really gain any new abilities, they just get more frequent. His third phase seems to be Multiple Points: Mixed since he gains a ton of new projectiles, most spawning from thin air and some of which he can control to spin in circles or move in set patterns.
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Thank you, just wanted to be sure as to what I was dealing with here
 
It's funny that this is being brought up, since I did make this graph a few months ago. Granted, it's not final (or guaranteed):

Edit: The right-most graph is an example of Xemnas' danmaku from Kingdom Hearts.

image.png
 
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Quibster said:
Clip Studio!

Edit: the bullet dots were made with a dot brush. Everything else is pretty standard editing.
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If your willing and my system is deemed to be alright, would you be willing to make one for it? I don't want to buy or sign up for a free trial in order to make my example. I can do my best with paint in order to get the point across.
 
FuriousFieryFist said:
If your willing and my system is deemed to be alright, would you be willing to make one for it? I don't want to buy or sign up for a free trial in order to make my example. I can do my best with paint in order to get the point across.
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I plan on updating the graph anyways! Otherwise sure

I really want staff input to occur before moving on to anything else, really. Requirements and standards are their territory. Feel like I'm getting too off-topic at this point.
 
Quibster said:
I plan on updating the graph anyways! Otherwise sure

I really want staff input to occur before moving on to anything else, really. Requirements and standards are their territory. Feel like I'm getting too off-topic at this point.
Click to expand...
Of course. Like I mentioned, this is only in the case that the staff accepts my system as a viable way of categorizing Danmaku.
 
Quibster said:
Yeah it's pretty explicit in execution and would meet the minimum imo. I even contemplated using that instead of Broly's attack, since SS Broly (Super) actually has a Danmaku rating on this site.

Edit: Wait, Gogeta already has a rating. It's just in his Blue form lol
Click to expand...
Why is it only in Blue lmao
 
Updates to the sandbox have been implemented under the "Possible Uses" section, as per the Social Influencing-type system suggestions.
 
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