Damage Scaling on Sonic's profile

[Jinsye]

We seem to be giving Sonic multipliers based on the damage numbers done in-game when that is not how that works for obvious reasons.

If you need an explanation, this falls under the purview of non-canon Game Mechanics. Hit Points and Damage Points are the most basic definition of this, and we shouldn't just make Sonic an exception.

The Focused Homing attack is especially egregious in that regard because it is not based on any multiplier, just a person eyeballing the boss' health bar. The Sonic Frontiers scaling is bad too.

Sonic seems to have a bunch of other scaling for his + tier but considering none of those seem to be linking to a calc then it should just be removed and his Phantom Rush multiplier (which is at least directly stated) should be adjusted accordingly.

 

[Remus1998]

This won't be controversial

 

[JJSliderman]

I agree, some of the stuff I think can stay because it’s integrated into the story (like power cores and the Frontiers multiplier) or because they have a specific value clearly stated (Phantom Rush), or they come from purely non-gameplay scenarios (like the spindash multiplier), but stuff like Focused Homing Attack, Team Blast, and debatably every instance where Sonic beats a boss in less hits than before need to go (I say debatably for the last one because it could fall under Sonic’s accelerated development and it is somewhat tied to story progression, despite ultimately still relying on health bars).

 

[omegabronic]

I don't see the problem here, we are shown by the game how much damage one attack from sonic does, and then we see how much more damage he gives with the other methods, we are visually shown the multiplier

If the game gives us a metric of how much damage sonic is giving, and we know that he is giving more damage with other methods, and we have a visual representation of how much more damage is being given, then what is the problem to use this blatant showing of multiplier?

 

[Nierre]

definitely following this

 

[omegabronic]

Further more, the focused homing attack is aknownledged as an actual boost in power, with us calcularing how much more based on metrics the game itself gives, i really don't see the point of this thread

 

[Eseseso]

Leaning agree, I was having suspicions about this myself.

 

[Jinsye]

Further more, the focused homing attack is aknownledged as an actual boost in power, with us calcularing how much more based on metrics the game itself gives, i really don't see the point of this thread

It may be acknowledged as an actual boost in power, but damage scaling is not a reliable way to determine multipliers in lieu of feats. This strictly goes against our Game Mechanics page, as I don't think "Hit Points" and "Boss Bars" are canon features that are in the story.

agree, some of the stuff I think can stay because it’s integrated into the story (like power cores and the Frontiers multiplier)

Do you have the scans for the Frontiers multiplier being explicitly 4x? The only images provided on the profile are Sonic dealing 10 damage at level 1 and 40 damage at level 99. We don't treat those as canon.

 

[Jinsye]

It should also be noted on our Multiplier page, a multiplier needs to come with a reliable direct statement. Eyeballing the damage health bar is not a reliable direct statement. You need to change wiki policy in order to get these multipliers accepted.

 

[JJSliderman]

I don’t have a direct statement; but the game is centered around Sonic unlocking his potential and growing stronger in order to face increasingly tougher opponents, so the damage increase is integrated into the story and makes it more viable to me.

 

[Jinsye]

I don’t have a direct statement; but the game is centered around Sonic unlocking his potential and growing stronger in order to face increasingly tougher opponents, so the damage increase is integrated into the story and makes it more viable to me.

Yeah, as of current wiki policy we wouldn't really accept this. As of the multipliers page.

Multipliers come from direct statements instead of being reasoned from something else. That means, for example, that if a verse has powerlevels or statistics, the doubling of a statistic or power level should not be concluded to correspond to the power of the character doubling, unless it is clearly specified to work that way.

So we'd need a direct statement, otherwise it is just unquantifiable.

 

[JJSliderman]

Yeah I don’t have those.

Maybe Ian does though.

 

[JJSliderman]

Does this also apply to the spindash 54x boost? That would be a pretty big hit if taken away.

 

[Jinsye]

Fairly sure that is both calc stacking and a non-direct multiplier, so probably.

 

[omegabronic]

It may be acknowledged as an actual boost in power, but damage scaling is not a reliable way to determine multipliers in lieu of feats. This strictly goes against our Game Mechanics page, as I don't think "Hit Points" and "Boss Bars" are canon features that are in the story.

Not the point of the multiplier, the zeti take x ammount of hits to be defeated by sonic, they x ammount less hits when sonic is using the charged homing attack, the health bar is not needed for the argument, we are visually shown that it is that much more powerful, i really see no difference from this and any other easily calculated multiplier that there is in the site

Do you have the scans for the Frontiers multiplier being explicitly 4x? The only images provided on the profile are Sonic dealing 10 damage at level 1 and 40 damage at level 99. We don't treat those as canon.

Yes we do because it is a canon thing in frontiers, sonic growing and dealing more damage is a things, the game has a metric to show how much damage sonic is doing, so it is supported by the lore

 

[omegabronic]

Yeah, as of current wiki policy we wouldn't really accept this. As of the multipliers page.


So we'd need a direct statement, otherwise it is just unquantifiable.

Case by case, when we know that something is a boost, we can calculatr how much of a boost it is if we have enough evidence, we have in this case

 

[omegabronic]

Fairly sure that is both calc stacking and a non-direct multiplier, so probably.

To be calc stacking it would need to be using the results of another calculation, thay one does not do that at all

 

[ShakeResounding]

Does this also apply to the spindash 54x boost? That would be a pretty big hit if taken away.

Fairly sure that is both calc stacking and a non-direct multiplier, so probably.

Calc stacking doesn't have grounds regarding the Spin Dash calculation, that isn't how calc stacking works. And while it's a non-direct multiplier, those are case-by-case and not immediately grounds for disqualification.

Pretty sure calc members and staff wouldn't have accepted it if it was.

 

[JJSliderman]

Maybe a conversation could be opened regarding which of these amps are okay to keep.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Kinda agree. If there's not a specific multiplier, then it should be just upscaling, otherwise it leads to very flawed results.

 

[Jinsye]

Case by case, when we know that something is a boost, we can calculatr how much of a boost it is if we have enough evidence, we have in this case

There is no "case-by-case basis" here because literally everything in any game is a boost with as much evidence as is presented here.

Example:
In Minecraft, a fully enchanted Netherite Sword will take 4 hits to kill an Enderman, while a fist will take 40 hits. A Netherite sword is an obvious amp from a fist so we can take it the number of hits as a multiplier. Thus, Steve is now 4x stronger than before despite there not being a specific feat.

Same logic applies to like any RPG, or anything. Damage scaling has never been a reliable way to track measurements of power. The multipliers page once again states that it must come from DIRECT STATEMENTS rather than reasoning from something else. If you want to change the standards then feel free to.

 

[omegabronic]

Kinda agree. If there's not a specific multiplier, then it should be just upscaling, otherwise it leads to very flawed results.

Well it is shown that a character needs x ammount of hits to defeat one oponent, and then when using a different techinique he defeats said oponent in x ammount of less hits, isn't that blatant showing of how much more powerful the said techinique is?

 

[omegabronic]

There is no "case-by-case basis" here because literally everything in any game is a boost with as much evidence as is presented here.

Example:
In Minecraft, a fully enchanted Netherite Sword will take 4 hits to kill an Enderman, while a fist will take 40 hits. A Netherite sword is an obvious amp from a fist so we can take it the number of hits as a multiplier. Thus, Steve is now 4x stronger than before despite there not being a specific feat.

Could you honestly explain the problem is the logic you presented in your example here?

Same logic applies to like any RPG, or anything. Damage scaling has never been a reliable way to track measurements of power. The multipliers page once again states that it must come from DIRECT STATEMENTS rather than reasoning from something else. If you want to change the standards then feel free to.

We have direct statements that it is a boost in power, we are just calculating how much of a boost it is, it fits what the standards say

 

[Jinsye]

Could you honestly explain the problem is the logic you presented in your example here?

The problem is the lack of feats and statements supporting this so-called multiplier. This sets a bad precedent with how video games could be scaled, leading to multipliers that are not represented in the story solely based off of game mechanics.

Plus, it's not like damage scales like this in real life, so it has no bounding in reality either.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Well it is shown that a character needs x ammount of hits to defeat one oponent, and then when using a different techinique he defeats said oponent in x ammount of less hits, isn't that blatant showing of how much more powerful the said techinique is?

Issue is that if we apply this logic to games like RPGs like Pokémon, in this case everyone would be Low 1-C because of them not being potrayed as infinitely weaker in the battles coz of stats.

Stats scaling has always been a game mechanic and using it leads to very weird leaps in logic.

 

[CosmicWreck]

I agree. Abuse of game mechanics pretty obvious with this one.

 

[JJSliderman]

In the case of the spindash I would argue the multiplier is consistent, the spin dash and boost have always been portrayed as blitzing the opposition, it’s just now there’s a number attached.

 

[omegabronic]

Issue is that if we apply this logic to games like RPGs like Pokémon, in this case everyone would be Low 1-C because of them not being potrayed as infinitely weaker in the battles coz of stats.
Stats scaling has always been a game mechanic and using it leads to very weird leaps in logic.

You see, this is not the same thing, in screen stats were never used to scale here

in the case of pokemon there is clear contradictions in the stats and in the lore, there is no such thing here

 

[StrymULTRA]

You know how damage is calculated? Exactly, stats.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Stats scaling has always been a game mechanic and using it leads to very weird leaps in logic.

Unless it is a very, VERY specific exception in Undertale, yeah

You see, this is not the same thing, in screen stats were never used to scale here

in the case of pokemon there is clear contradictions in the stats and in the lore, there is no such thing here

Mate, pal, bro, change site standards for multipliers or just stop arguing, cause this is going against said standards, even with games that rely HEAVILY on game mechanics like Realm of the Mad God, I don't do this, otherwise Oryx would probably be 7-A right now.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Unless it is a very, VERY specific exception in Undertale, yeah

And in Undertale we use ONLY the Check stats, not the in-data stats, as those are the true game mechanics, otherwise Asriel = Papyrus given both have 8 attack.

I wouldn't really blend Check and Data stats for UT at all.

 

[omegabronic]

Unless it is a very, VERY specific exception in Undertale, yeah

Mate, pal, bro, change site standards for multipliers or just stop arguing, cause this is going against said standards, even with games that rely HEAVILY on game mechanics like Realm of the Mad God, I don't do this, otherwise Oryx would probably be 7-A right now.

Looking at the page
"and are not necessarily indicative of a character's or entity's actual abilities." It doesn't say that we can't use them at all, it uses necessarily, aka meaning that there are cases where they can be used, plus looking at the examples in the page, i really don't see how they are against the multipliers at all, they all show clear contradictions to the said "mechanic" and thus why they are not usable, this one has no contradictions, so per the page we are allowed to use them, that is what the page says and demonstrates with the specific examples it gavea to this kind of thing

 

[DaReaperMan]

Looking at the page
"and are not necessarily indicative of a character's or entity's actual abilities." It doesn't say that we can't use them at all, it uses necessarily, aka meaning that there are cases where they can be used, plus looking at the examples in the page, i really don't see how they are against the multipliers at all, they all show clear contradictions to the said "mechanic" and thus why they are not usable, this one has no contradictions, so per the page we are allowed to use them, that is what the page says and demonstrates with the specific examples it gavea to this kind of thing

Show me where Doctor Robotnik has a health bar in-canon

Or Sonic

 

[omegabronic]

Show me where Doctor Robotnik has a health bar in-canon

Or Sonic

The argument is about the damage given based on the game's metric of damage, them litterraly having health bars or not is nor relevant to the point

 

[DaReaperMan]

The argument is about the damage given based on the game's metric of damage, them litterraly having health bars or not is nor relevant to the point

If you accept one game mechanic, you can't pick and choose about other ones to accept

In which case Sonic's dura in base should be changed to Unknown cause literally everything either one or two-shots him

 

[StrymULTRA]

In which case Sonic's dura in base should be changed to Unknown cause literally everything either one or two-shots him

More like 10-C because spikes do greatly harm him lol.

 

[JJSliderman]

If that’s the case I’m fine with axing all the gameplay centric multipliers and only use the ones that have a reference outside of gameplay (like the spindash or Heroes power cores), and only use gameplay ones that have a specific value like Phantom Rush.

 

[LaserPrecision]

I can understand permanent stat increases, but from what I recall, temporary amps have precedent of being accepted widely based off of only a calculation. Such as Classic Mega Man who has a 4x amp with speed gear via a calc. So to some level it must be acceptable. Maybe there's exceptions or some calcs are allowed for multipliers. Like buffs that very visibly amp the user (Cuz in Mega Man's case, the enemies essentially slow to a crawl)?

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Based on the site standards I suppose I have to agree with axing the multipliers based on hit points / health bars. Though the Power Core and Phantom Rush multipliers are still fair game.

 

[omegabronic]

i propose a substitute for the charged homing attack

since it has a 3 stage charge, obviosly 3 stages would be 3 times 1 stage, so instead of 5 the multiplier will go to 3, since a fully charged 3 stage homing attack is obviosly 3 times 1 stage of charge