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No but it could very well apply to dimensional space as a whole since as Beyond the Gates of the Silver Key states that the Outer Gods transcend and command all angles.
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Cthulhu (Cthulhu Saves the World) revisions.
- Thread starter Jinsye
- Start date
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Never in the original story.
The idea is though that angled space is supposed to at least equal curved space, and we learn in later stories that there are infinite dimensions.
Hence why one could assume that there are likely meant to be infinite angled dimensions, but going solely by its original meaning, it's "at least five".
The idea is though that angled space is supposed to at least equal curved space, and we learn in later stories that there are infinite dimensions.
Hence why one could assume that there are likely meant to be infinite angled dimensions, but going solely by its original meaning, it's "at least five".
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I think atleast High 2-A, likely 1-A. is reasonable
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Whichever everyone else agrees is best to use, however I think if the line can also be interpreted as beyond the infinite dimensions that exist within the mythos, that it's reasonable to say they were referring to that interpretation when regarding Azathoth. Not a mere 5+ dimensions and that he's still below infinite dimensions, despite his role within the cosmology.
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You're talking about a game where Cthulhu is depowered by a Wizard and Dagon is comparable to Nyarlathotep.
It's not a strict recreation of the cosmology.
It's not a strict recreation of the cosmology.
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At least High 2-A, likely 1-A sounds good to me.
I remember when it was discussed that CSTW Cthulhu was "At least 7-C and MHS+", oh how times have changed. Now I just need to find feats for Zeboyd's other projects.
I remember when it was discussed that CSTW Cthulhu was "At least 7-C and MHS+", oh how times have changed. Now I just need to find feats for Zeboyd's other projects.
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So are we all agreed on "At least High 2-A, possibly 1-A"?
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Seems to be a bit of a split between using "likely" or "possibly".
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I think "possibly" is better, in this case. "Likely" assumes 1-A is more likely than High 2-A, while we can actually fully support High 2-A in-game even without Mythos lore.
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Yeah, I agree.
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Wouldn't Cthulhu's page require a note explaining why CSTW is directly scaled to Lovecraft's original cosmology, while other verses which draw elements from different mythologies (such as Shin Megami Tensei) are not?
It would prevent a lot of threads questioning the stats as a whole
It would prevent a lot of threads questioning the stats as a whole
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Would this scale to Cthulhu's party? They battled Azathoth alongside him.
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@Dark
I guess? They're all at least High 2-A by the endgame via killing the Narrator.
I guess? They're all at least High 2-A by the endgame via killing the Narrator.
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Why do they kill the narrator?
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He didn't want to let Cthulhu have his powers back. It's where the plot manipulation and resistance to it comes from I believe.
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(Sorry about not getting back to this tonight, guys. I'll try for tomorrow...)
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Wait, if Cthulhu is going to have a "possibly 1-A" high-end, does this means he will be the first 3-D being with 1-A power on the site?
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iirc in the actual mythos we had a large star, possibly outerversal character onceUltima Reality said:Wait, if Cthulhu is going to have a "possibly 1-A" high-end, does this means he will be the first 3-D being with 1-A power on the site?
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Hmm.... Interesting. I agree with 1-A being added .
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Their 1-A high-end came from the possibility that they are dimensionless, actually
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Alright, so
Yes, admittedly, my thought process was more in line with Cal's while making the profile, though not quite the same. I'll try to explain.
Basically, my stance more or less revolves around how it seems we cannot assume that the cosmologies of CStW and the cosmologies of the Cthulhu Mythos proper are similar enough to, for 100% sure, derive the same meaning from "Beyond Angled Space", as within the narrative of CStW itself it is not given any further context at all. Generally, we consider different variations of the same character to require their own feats/world lore in spite of being directly based upon the same thing, concepts such as angular space and dimensionality shouldn't be different.
But wait, isn't the Cthulhu Mythos imminent domain, now? Which should mean everybody can use its cosmology freely, right?!
Well, the problem with that from what I can see is that, if we were to accept "Beyond Angled Space" as being functionally the same as the original Mythos, with utter certainty, and were to carry over its lore, then we would have to accept the rest of the mythology that is inexorably tied to said Beyond Angled Space as well. That's a big part of what defines them as being so beyond all human reasoning, their existing beyond Angled Space... including all the High 1-A/0 Outer Gods/Azathoth. Clearly, this contains a contradiction, as a being can't be Tier 0 if it is poked in the face with a sword and dies. And the other Old Ones/Outer Gods in CStW seem to only demonstrate parity with a 6-C to High 5-A character, which further contradicts this.
So, to err on the side of caution, I prioritized feats that actually happened within the story before going "well yeah, these things might behave similarly to the way that they do in the source material, so it is worth adding to the profile." The following, I believe, is true-
Towards the end of the game, the Narrator points out that by defeating Aza'thoth, thus saving the world. What world? Every world! Granted the context in play, with there being reality-hopping and whatnot, I am inclined to take this to be a Multiversal feat (every universe) rather than a Universe level feat (every planet), even though world had been used in reference to the planet the game takes place on prior to this. This is the 2-B low end.
Then, I remembered the whole "Hounds of Tindalos/the multiverse is infinite" thing, discussed it a bit with Azzy... and even though it was never stated nor implied anywhere within CStW itself, it seems pretty reasonable to assume that this much is very likely the case, as fictions already very often contain infinite-universe multiverses to begin with. It's a common trope that doesn't require a significant leap in logic... so, very likely 2-A.
I guess my hang-up on straight-up saying that Beyond Angled Space has to function the same here is that no concept of dimensionality is ever mentioned, or even implied, really, within CStW itself. All we have to go on within the game itself is a reference to a vaguely defined location that shares a name with what the game developers would understand to be a location within the Cthluhu Mythos...
(Again, an argument based on implication rather than something we can for certain prove: "He defeats Azathoth, who resides "beyond Angled Space"... would imply he existed entirely beyond 4-D space-time")
Mind, I don't deny its very possible. It is oddly specific, and invoking Death of the Author here seems to actually favor upgrading them rather than vice versa, as it denies the argument that "Well, Zeboyd didn't know that setting the fight here might entail that they're so and so powerful." But because the ending isn't well explained (because you know, comedy), yet at the same time the evidence suggesting this higher rating being legit was too weighty to ignore, I went with the safest option and tried to account for a wider range of possible levels of power, rather than assert "this is definitely the right one".
I guess if people are really insistent, they can ignore that, but I definitely feel like it would set a really bad precedent for us as a site, regarding parody characters, to say that we can scale Cthulhu to lore that his work is based off of rather than his own.
...all of this said!
If I simply misinterpreted Azzy when we were discussing Beyond Angled Space's high-end? If it entails existing beyond dimensionality altogether, rather than simply being infinite-dimensional? Then yeah, that definitely warrants upgrading the High 1-B to 1-A, nothing more to that bit.
Yes, admittedly, my thought process was more in line with Cal's while making the profile, though not quite the same. I'll try to explain.
Basically, my stance more or less revolves around how it seems we cannot assume that the cosmologies of CStW and the cosmologies of the Cthulhu Mythos proper are similar enough to, for 100% sure, derive the same meaning from "Beyond Angled Space", as within the narrative of CStW itself it is not given any further context at all. Generally, we consider different variations of the same character to require their own feats/world lore in spite of being directly based upon the same thing, concepts such as angular space and dimensionality shouldn't be different.
But wait, isn't the Cthulhu Mythos imminent domain, now? Which should mean everybody can use its cosmology freely, right?!
Well, the problem with that from what I can see is that, if we were to accept "Beyond Angled Space" as being functionally the same as the original Mythos, with utter certainty, and were to carry over its lore, then we would have to accept the rest of the mythology that is inexorably tied to said Beyond Angled Space as well. That's a big part of what defines them as being so beyond all human reasoning, their existing beyond Angled Space... including all the High 1-A/0 Outer Gods/Azathoth. Clearly, this contains a contradiction, as a being can't be Tier 0 if it is poked in the face with a sword and dies. And the other Old Ones/Outer Gods in CStW seem to only demonstrate parity with a 6-C to High 5-A character, which further contradicts this.
So, to err on the side of caution, I prioritized feats that actually happened within the story before going "well yeah, these things might behave similarly to the way that they do in the source material, so it is worth adding to the profile." The following, I believe, is true-
Towards the end of the game, the Narrator points out that by defeating Aza'thoth, thus saving the world. What world? Every world! Granted the context in play, with there being reality-hopping and whatnot, I am inclined to take this to be a Multiversal feat (every universe) rather than a Universe level feat (every planet), even though world had been used in reference to the planet the game takes place on prior to this. This is the 2-B low end.
Then, I remembered the whole "Hounds of Tindalos/the multiverse is infinite" thing, discussed it a bit with Azzy... and even though it was never stated nor implied anywhere within CStW itself, it seems pretty reasonable to assume that this much is very likely the case, as fictions already very often contain infinite-universe multiverses to begin with. It's a common trope that doesn't require a significant leap in logic... so, very likely 2-A.
I guess my hang-up on straight-up saying that Beyond Angled Space has to function the same here is that no concept of dimensionality is ever mentioned, or even implied, really, within CStW itself. All we have to go on within the game itself is a reference to a vaguely defined location that shares a name with what the game developers would understand to be a location within the Cthluhu Mythos...
(Again, an argument based on implication rather than something we can for certain prove: "He defeats Azathoth, who resides "beyond Angled Space"... would imply he existed entirely beyond 4-D space-time")
Mind, I don't deny its very possible. It is oddly specific, and invoking Death of the Author here seems to actually favor upgrading them rather than vice versa, as it denies the argument that "Well, Zeboyd didn't know that setting the fight here might entail that they're so and so powerful." But because the ending isn't well explained (because you know, comedy), yet at the same time the evidence suggesting this higher rating being legit was too weighty to ignore, I went with the safest option and tried to account for a wider range of possible levels of power, rather than assert "this is definitely the right one".
I guess if people are really insistent, they can ignore that, but I definitely feel like it would set a really bad precedent for us as a site, regarding parody characters, to say that we can scale Cthulhu to lore that his work is based off of rather than his own.
...all of this said!
If I simply misinterpreted Azzy when we were discussing Beyond Angled Space's high-end? If it entails existing beyond dimensionality altogether, rather than simply being infinite-dimensional? Then yeah, that definitely warrants upgrading the High 1-B to 1-A, nothing more to that bit.
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Except that you are being honestly way too conservative, ignoring that Cthulhu Mythos is public domain and anyone can go as far as to say H.P. Lovecraft's stories literally happened in his writings, Beyond-Angled Space is a reference to his cosmology, and the multiverse is always infinite in even the most basic Lovecraft adaptations.
Beyond-Angled Space is at least 5D, possibly 1-A.
Beyond-Angled Space is at least 5D, possibly 1-A.
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Hold up... Anyone can do that ? Well.. That explains so many of the Chulthu Mythos variations on FC/OC ... Sorry.
Anyways, i agree with @Matt. If Beyond-Angled Space is stated to be anything like that, I would assume that is what the Author meant until WoG intervenes and says otherwise.
Anyways, i agree with @Matt. If Beyond-Angled Space is stated to be anything like that, I would assume that is what the Author meant until WoG intervenes and says otherwise.
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Yakou Madara, Reinhard Heydrich, MercuriusUltima Reality said:Wait, if Cthulhu is going to have a "possibly 1-A" high-end, does this means he will be the first 3-D being with 1-A power on the site?
Get in line, muchacho.
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Again going to point out that ignoring all Mythos stuff, killing the Narrator is High 2-A minimum.
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What's the difference in power between the Narrator and Azathoth from this game ?
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If anyone can say that the Cthulhu Mythos stories "literally just happen" within their stories, wouldn't every incarnation of Cthulhu in any fiction at least somewhat comparable with Lovecraft's be Large Star level, since they're one and the same entity? That's where my problem lies, again, because CStW's story directly contradicts that by casually killing off the verse's Omnipotent being as the final boss.
No one ever really explained why The Narrator is automatically an entire tier jump above everyone else, either, they've just said "it is"
Whatever. I've said my piece, and apparently people are just going to agree here that abstrusely referencing a single element of Lovecraft's lore automatically invalidates the other contradictions, and tbh I don't really care about how high/low/etc. the verse is all that much? "The site exists beyond me", etc. etc.
I do kind of wish people would bother addressing the points rather than just telling me that I'm wrong because I'm ignoring you (in spite of the gigantic wall of text that specifically addresses these things.)
Go do your updates, I guess, I'll go make more pages for the verse in a little while or something.
No one ever really explained why The Narrator is automatically an entire tier jump above everyone else, either, they've just said "it is"
Whatever. I've said my piece, and apparently people are just going to agree here that abstrusely referencing a single element of Lovecraft's lore automatically invalidates the other contradictions, and tbh I don't really care about how high/low/etc. the verse is all that much? "The site exists beyond me", etc. etc.
I do kind of wish people would bother addressing the points rather than just telling me that I'm wrong because I'm ignoring you (in spite of the gigantic wall of text that specifically addresses these things.)
Go do your updates, I guess, I'll go make more pages for the verse in a little while or something.
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Perpetual, no offense but you missed my point, and I feel you are overreacting. It's just a harmless discussion about a silly game.
Beyond Angled Space is at least High 2-A, and since Azathoth is just fiction to the Narrator, he should be at least Low 1-C.
Beyond Angled Space is at least High 2-A, and since Azathoth is just fiction to the Narrator, he should be at least Low 1-C.
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No?
Jinsye
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- Thread starter
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Annoying Dog still uses it.
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A lot of verses are BUILT on Reality-Fiction interaction and we analogue it to Higher Dimensions.
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Luminous Being is this to the rest of D&D, as well, by virtue of being the avatar/stand-in of the Dungeon Master him/herself, so yeah. That's always been a thing. I can probably pull up more instances of this elsewhere, too, if I was given time, but I think the point is taken.
Narrator just didn't come across as such to me, I guess, as much as a powerful reality/plot warper and/or 4th wall gag. Guess I didn't take that bit of the speech to be literal.
Again, meh.
Narrator just didn't come across as such to me, I guess, as much as a powerful reality/plot warper and/or 4th wall gag. Guess I didn't take that bit of the speech to be literal.
Again, meh.
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Alright, he's fixed up.
I guess while I'm here, I should ask, who all gets Plot Manipulation/Resistance to it? I only remember Cthulhu, October, and the Narrator ever directly doing that sort of thing, with everybody else mostly just along for the ride, but I might not be remembering something.
I guess while I'm here, I should ask, who all gets Plot Manipulation/Resistance to it? I only remember Cthulhu, October, and the Narrator ever directly doing that sort of thing, with everybody else mostly just along for the ride, but I might not be remembering something.
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Commenting on this again because I noticed something rather important.
Currently, Cthulhu's High 5-A rating for defeating a self-creating black hole is under his key for when his powers were restored.
However, said black hole boss doesn't have to be fought after Cthulhu regains his powers.
The only requirement to reach its location is that you've unlocked Ember, the final party member. Cthulhu's powers return when he kills Dagon (whose location is also accessible via Ember).
The only thing which "canonically" won't happen until Cthulhu gets his powers back is everything inside R'lyeh.
I'm unsure of what exactly this means for his first two keys.
Currently, Cthulhu's High 5-A rating for defeating a self-creating black hole is under his key for when his powers were restored.
However, said black hole boss doesn't have to be fought after Cthulhu regains his powers.
The only requirement to reach its location is that you've unlocked Ember, the final party member. Cthulhu's powers return when he kills Dagon (whose location is also accessible via Ember).
The only thing which "canonically" won't happen until Cthulhu gets his powers back is everything inside R'lyeh.
I'm unsure of what exactly this means for his first two keys.
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