CRT about Elysia's new profile

[Enryu_The_Red_Tower]

Bump

 

[Solacis]

I don't think it's necessary to make keys that differentiate Elysia's sim from her real self, I think that putting a new tabber for her exclusive abilities and resistances as a sim and put a note to specify which Elysia is being used in a Versus Thread (the sim or the real one) is more than enough

True enough. That's what I ended up doing for my Kalpas sandbox too.

Alright, I will fix Elysia's Time Slow description then. I think Elysia current section about her Resistance to Honkai Energy is fine, I mean, Elysia can easily produce and use a large amount Honkai energy that even Fu Hua think is incredible, and considering that Honkai characters have to resist their own Honkai energy that they can handle to not be affect by it negatively, with Elysia casually withstanding the amount of Honkai energy that she can output while completly unfazed, which should be at very least above to what BoS Kiana can resist

It's not outstandingly noteworthy since it's still tied to her level of Honkai manip. Kiana's was mentioned because she was withstanding WAY more than she was able to actually control, so it was worth noting.

 

[Solacis]

Also, about to post a minor CRT about where we begin with 4-A when it comes to scaling.

 

[Enryu_The_Red_Tower]

Also, about to post a minor CRT about where we begin with 4-A when it comes to scaling.

You can use Elysia's sandbox profile scans about the 4-A stuff, I'm sure they'll be useful

 

[Solacis]

You can use Elysia's sandbox profile scans about the 4-A stuff, I'm sure they'll be useful

Nah, 4-A starts way earlier. You'll see in the CRT.

 

[Solacis]

Nah, 4-A starts way earlier. You'll see in the CRT.

Actually nevermind I ****** something up.

 

[Enryu_The_Red_Tower]

Actually nevermind I ****** something up.

?

 

[Enryu_The_Red_Tower]

Bump

 

[Enryu_The_Red_Tower]

Bump

 

[Solacis]

Just as an update, every single character in Honkai is "4-B, likely 4-A" now. Scaling chain discussion revealed that basically everyone back-scales on some level from 4-B. Tier 4 is massive enough that there aren't enough power gaps in the whole series to justify even White Comet being less than 4-B, so that's just how it is.

Elysia's 4-A creation feat was discussed and we ended up with "likely 4-A", purely because it's the only 4-A feat. Once we have more 4-A feats, then we'd end up on just a solid 4-A.

 

[Enryu_The_Red_Tower]

Elysia's 4-A creation feat was discussed and we ended up with "likely 4-A", purely because it's the only 4-A feat. Once we have more 4-A feats, then we'd end up on just a solid 4-A.

Are you not forgetting these two 4-A feats?

Elysia changing the trajectory of the stars in the night sky and accelerating them to turn around the Earth multiple times at a very high speed

Elysia destroying her own pocket realm with an ocean of stars and withstanding the destruction of it

 

[Neutralino]

Tier 4 is massive enough that there aren't enough power gaps in the whole series to justify even White Comet being less than 4-B

?

 

[Solacis]

Are you not forgetting these two 4-A feats?

Elysia changing the trajectory of the stars in the night sky and accelerating them to turn around the Earth multiple times at a very high speed

Elysia destroying her own pocket realm with an ocean of stars and withstanding the destruction of it

Those are both tied to the same feat of creating the pocket dimension itself. Neither would be valid if the creation feat is invalid, and if the creation feat is valid, then the other two would be redundant.

After more discussion, we're leaning closer towards it being a valid creation feat, but we'll see.

 

[Solacis]

?

Basically everyone backscales from each other one way or another. AP feats are annoyingly interconnected in Honkai and there isn't really anywhere that someone is so ludicrously stronger than everyone else weaker than them that nobody else backscales. Even Kevin can be harmed by vastly weaker opponents like Senti, and Senti can be harmed by a late-game White Comet.

Elysia being 4-A via a starry sky feat, even if only in her strongest key, indirectly makes everyone weaker than her also 4-A.

 

[Neutralino]

Even Kevin can be harmed by vastly weaker opponents like Senti, and Senti can be harmed by a late-game White Comet.

When was he harmed by her?

Kiana used her void powers to harm Sentience then. She only happened to be wearing White Comet at the time. She didn't attack Sentience with White Comet. No one would logically interpret Kiana or anyone else at the very start of the story to be anywhere near Herrscher tier.

 

[Solacis]

When was he harmed by her?

Kiana used her void powers to harm Sentience then. She only happened to be wearing White Comet at the time. She didn't attack Sentience with White Comet. No one would logically interpret Kiana or anyone else at the very start of the story to be anywhere near Herrscher tier.

Cracked his horn.

Also, literally just pay attention to the scaling chains. Early game Kiana can harm Wotan, which is stronger than Wendy. Wotan can harm SF Himeko, who can harm Benares, who SK Fu Hua needed to use Eclipse mode to defeat quickly. Eclipse mode Fu Hua was explicitly able to harm HoV, and Kiana using the same power as HoV could harm Senti, who after getting a little stronger, could crack Kevin's horn in AHR. Kevin in AHR would naturally be comparable to Elysia. And this is just the massively-simplified version of the scaling chain.

Do you have any idea how obscenely massive 4-A is as a tier? How far into 4-A a starry sky feat actually is? Elysia would need to literally be over a million times stronger than HoV for the latter to end up as baseline 4-A. There is NOT enough power disparities in the entire game to justify that kind of multiplier.

So yes, even early-game White Comet Kiana would be 4-A.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Eclipse mode Fu Hua was explicitly able to harm HoV

Do you have a scan? I don't recall at all. I'm pretty sure HoV was toying with everyone up until Godbane Himeko

 

[Solacis]

Do you have a scan? I don't recall at all. I'm pretty sure HoV was toying with everyone up until Godbane Himeko

"The Herrscher was wounded by the attacks."

 

[Neutralino]

So yes, even early-game White Comet Kiana would be 4-A.

And this is the problem with scaling chains - it gets nonsense results like this if it goes on for long enough even if the scaling might technically be valid. It also goes against the narrative intent and actual feats.

 

[Vietthai96]

Even me personally thinking 4-A Herrschers is a stretch. 4-A early White Comet Kiana will make almost every Honkai Beast 4-A, which is even more ******* ridiculous

 

[Solacis]

Even me personally thinking 4-A Herrschers is a stretch. 4-A early White Comet Kiana will make almost every Honkai Beast 4-A, which is even more ******* ridiculous

And this is the problem with scaling chains - it gets nonsense results like this if it goes on for long enough even if the scaling might technically be valid. It also goes against the narrative intent and actual feats.

By all means, provide a logical alternative. You've certainly had months to do so.

How about instead of disparaging people's hard work trying to find consistency in the verse, you actually provide something constructive?

Neutralino, you were in the server when this chain was being made. If you hate it so much, why didn't you say anything?

 

[Witch_Bernkastel]

Are you not forgetting these two 4-A feats?

Elysia changing the trajectory of the stars in the night sky and accelerating them to turn around the Earth multiple times at a very high speed

Elysia destroying her own pocket realm with an ocean of stars and withstanding the destruction of it

Don't forget that Durandal was able to manipulate a galaxy-sized bubble universe into a black hole in her visual novel.

 

[Solacis]

Don't forget that Durandal was able to manipulate a galaxy-sized bubble universe into a black hole in her visual novel.

That was a solar system sized bubble. That said, that's pretty much close to the bottom tier of feats in the verse rn. Not to mention the multiple mentions of controlling and shattering stars in plural from Dea Anchora and Spina Astera battlesuit and weapon descriptions, the supernova statements for Shamash, etc., etc.

Even if you could argue that 4-A is a bit on the high-end, the same scaling would apply even if we stuck to 4-B or lower. If Honkai writers didn't want to have Tier 4 early-game characters, they wouldn't have made it so blatantly clear that these characters are all fairly relative to each other on several occasions.

This isn't even new trend for Mihoyo writers. GGZ would be High 1-C pretty much the whole way through, and HSR's tutorial boss is literally a planet-buster. Just because some people seem to think it makes no sense for early-game characters in Honkai 3rd to be Tier 4, doesn't immediately mean that Hoyo didn't intend it.

In any case, this discussion is better served on the CRT actually dedicated to it.

 

[Neutralino]

By all means, provide a logical alternative. You've certainly had months to do so.

How about instead of disparaging people's hard work trying to find consistency in the verse, you actually provide something constructive?

Neutralino, you were in the server when this chain was being made. If you hate it so much, why didn't you say anything?

I have. Many times.

Even if you could argue that 4-A is a bit on the high-end, the same scaling would apply even if we stuck to 4-B or lower. If Honkai writers didn't want to have Tier 4 early-game characters, they wouldn't have made it so blatantly clear that these characters are all fairly relative to each other on several occasions.

Because feats matter, and so do anti-feats. Honkai beasts die to conventional weapons. They die to mechs, which are no stronger than conventional weapons. Valkyries are regularly threatened by Honkai beasts. Base Sirin was winded by a nuke. PE Herrschers were threatened by nukes, and the first 6 were defeated even before MANTIS technology was developed. Feats like Kiana's Neko Charm flipping a jet are treated as notable and representative of her power at the time. Nothing in the early game suggests anything near tier 4, featswise or narratively, and it's only via long-winded scaling the writers wouldn't have bothered to think about that you get T4 Honkai beasts that die to RPGs.

Sure, you can take the high ends and ignore anti-feats if you want, but this isn't how proper character strength ranking should be conducted.

 

[Solacis]

You've spoken out many times against the scaling, yet you've never actually proposed an alternative. You can say Tier 4 makes no sense, sure, but you also have to give us a tier that does make sense according to your standards; with the scans and calcs to back it up. Without providing that alternative, all it looks like is you disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing, much like Vietthai, so it's no wonder no one really takes your complaints seriously.

 

[Avengershows]

Base Sirin was winded by a nuke

Yes, after wasting literally her ENTIRE energy supply, which she gets her power from. This is directly stated

 

[Solacis]

.

Anywho, you can probably post the profile now. I've posted Kalpas already. I'll help fix any grammatical errors I find once it's up.

 

[Neutralino]

Yes, after wasting literally her ENTIRE energy supply, which she gets her power from. This is directly stated

Does she gradually get less durable as she fights? Each time she uses a lance or a portal makes her a bit squishier? Exhaustion doesn't affect durability.

You've spoken out many times against the scaling, yet you've never actually proposed an alternative. You can say Tier 4 makes no sense, sure, but you also have to give us a tier that does make sense according to your standards; with the scans and calcs to back it up. Without providing that alternative, all it looks like is you disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing, much like Vietthai, so it's no wonder no one really takes your complaints seriously.

The early game feats are around t6, 7, and 8. They've been calced numerous times.

 

[Avengershows]

Does she gradually get less durable as she fights? Each time she uses a lance or a portal makes her a bit squishier? Exhaustion doesn't affect durability.

This isn't "gradually exhausting herself" she literally used her ENTIRE energy supply. The energy supply that GIVES HER HER STATS.

 

[Neutralino]

This isn't "gradually exhausting herself" she literally used her ENTIRE energy supply. The energy supply that GIVES HER HER STATS.

No, Honkai energy does not directly confer stats. The way characters gain stats is via transformations like stigmata awakenings, mantis gene infusions, and absorbing additional Herrscher cores, not simply gaining more Honkai energy.

Also, a rebuttal to Elysia's star feat is that bubble universes can terminate at a given size but still show things from outside the bubble universe that "should be" there. This was shown in the bubble universe with Dr. MEI and Prometheus, which cut off at a bridge that none of the characters could cross and yet still showed the terrain beyond the bridge. The stars in Elysia's realm were just points of light meant to substitute for stars.

 

[Avengershows]

The stars in Elysia's realm were just points of light meant to substitute for stars.

Do you have any proof for that claim though?

No, Honkai energy does not directly confer stats. The way characters gain stats is via transformations like stigmata awakenings, mantis gene infusions, and absorbing additional Herrscher cores, not simply gaining more Honkai energy.

It does directly affect stats, Sirin points out that absorbing Honkai Energy makes her stronger

 

[Solacis]

No, Honkai energy does not directly confer stats. The way characters gain stats is via transformations like stigmata awakenings, mantis gene infusions, and absorbing additional Herrscher cores, not simply gaining more Honkai energy.

Also, a rebuttal to Elysia's star feat is that bubble universes can terminate at a given size but still show things from outside the bubble universe that "should be" there. This was shown in the bubble universe with Dr. MEI and Prometheus, which cut off at a bridge that none of the characters could cross and yet still showed the terrain beyond the bridge. The stars in Elysia's realm were just points of light meant to substitute for stars.

First of all, you'd need scans to prove that the stars are fake. Second, you'd need scans to show that the Land of Origin is a bubble world, which it isn't.

The Land of Origin is an Imaginary Space. It's located in Imaginary Space, and it was built by a Herrscher, where all Herrschers have the inherent ability to manipulate Imaginary Space. Not to mention that bubble worlds all peel off from real worlds, so considering it was never stated that the Land of Origin is a bubble world, you'd need to at LEAST prove that it's a shadow of a real world; which you can't, because there's no location in the Previous Era that the Land of Origin is based on.

 

[TheKingStrategist13]

Uhhh, I hope it's ok that I'm gonna just, bump this-

 

[Egarroyo0330]

So this is kind of off topic, but can someone tell me why this verse isn't low outer? I've been seeing a lot of people online claim that it is, so I would like to know why you guys think it isn't, a bunch of people talk about it being 11 D.

 

[TheKingStrategist13]

Why exactly would it be outer? I ain't seen anything that would really indicate such.

 

[Egarroyo0330]

Why exactly would it be outer? I ain't seen anything that would really indicate such.

That's what I want to know, I have seen many people say Honkai is outer, so I want to know why, I think they usually bring up the tree being damaged or something, I don't really remember, I just know a lot of people think they are outer.

 

[TheKingStrategist13]

Well, either way, maybe make a thread in Questions and Answer's for that.

 

[Egarroyo0330]

Well, either way, maybe make a thread in Questions and Answer's for that.

Alright, I will.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Can we publish Elysia profile now?

 

[Solacis]

Would just need to edit her Origin key a little. I updated Mei's profile yesterday so Enryu can use that as reference.

Beyond that, it should be good to go.