Re-adding a justification to Welt's profile.

[Neutralino]

No. It's clearly a highly specific, circumstantial, and suicidal move (a lot of suicide attacks in fiction tend to be a character's strongest attack, not something they otherwise scale to), not something that every other attack he makes scales to. The setting has too many low-ends for everyone to be 4-C.

Edit: Sirin's AP/Durability would scale to this value, as Welt mentioned that his explosion would only have 1% of besting her, and that she was too strong for him.

This is a mistranslation. The original text does not have Welt talk about Sirin having a chance to survive the explosion itself.

第五十二话 最后一搏—《崩坏3》IP站

comic.bh3.com

就算我尝试引爆 律者核心, 也只有百分之一的 概率消灭她。
Even if I tried to detonate the Herrscher core, there is only a one percent chance to destroy her.

Keyword is tried, not that he'd successfully detonate it and then Sirin has a 99% chance of surviving it. He did try to detonate it, and Sirin did stop him before he succeeded. It means that he always had a low chance of even being able to blow himself up in the first place.

 

[GarrixianXD]

No. It's clearly a highly specific, circumstantial, and suicidal move (a lot of suicide attacks in fiction tend to be a character's strongest attack, not something they otherwise scale to), not something that every other attack he makes scales to. The setting has too many low-ends for everyone to be 4-C.

You provided no evidence of it being a suicide attack.

This is a mistranslation. The original text does not have Welt talk about Sirin having a chance to survive the explosion itself.

第五十二话 最后一搏—《崩坏3》IP站

comic.bh3.com

就算我尝试引爆 律者核心, 也只有百分之一的 概率消灭她。
Even if I tried to detonate the Herrscher core, there is only a one percent chance to destroy her.

Keyword is tried, not that he'd successfully detonate it and then Sirin has a 99% chance of surviving it. He did try to detonate it, and Sirin did stop him before he succeeded. It means that he always had a low chance of even being able to blow himself up in the first place.

False, it means “attempt” under the context. And no, nothing implies that Sirin can prevent Welt from initiating the herrscher core detonation.

 

[Jackof_noTrades068]

You provided no evidence of it being a suicide attack.

What do you mean it’s not a suicide attack? Tesla says core detonation is guaranteed to kill him no matter what.
If it’s not suicidal then the whole thing of Tesla breaking down in this scene is meaningless narratively.

 

[GarrixianXD]

What do you mean it’s not a suicide attack? Tesla says core detonation is guaranteed to kill him no matter what.
If it’s not suicidal then the whole thing of Tesla breaking down in this scene is meaningless narratively.

Never denied it is. I only said Neutralino provided no evidence of being so. It'll still scale to Sirin nonetheless. The OP is validating the feat, not discussing where it scales to.

 

[inkownn]

You provided no evidence of it being a suicide attack.

False, it means “attempt” under the context. And no, nothing implies that Sirin can prevent Welt from initiating the herrscher core detonation.

A self destruct nuke isn’t a suicide attack?

Attempt and tried virtually means the same thing here so I don’t even know why you said that. You didn’t attack their interpretation which was “the 1% refers to even being able to detonate my core in time”
This is reinforced by the fact Sirin was worried about his attack and ending up stopping him from even blowing it up in the first place.

 

[GarrixianXD]

Attempt and tried virtually means the same thing here so I don’t even know why you said that. You didn’t attack their interpretation which was “the 1% refers to even being able to detonate my core in time”

Nah. Also, why do I need to respond to their headcanon interpretation? Who said that 1 percent means this and that blah blah blah, pure argument from ignorance.

This is reinforced by the fact Sirin was worried about his attack and ending up stopping him from even blowing it up in the first place.

No source; pure assumption.

 

[CurrySenpai]

Agree with OP and the Sirin scaling

 

[inkownn]

Nah. Also, why do I need to respond to their headcanon interpretation?

Because you’d have to somehow prove your interpretation is more valid then there’s. They explained why the quote seems more inclined to support their interpretation over yours.

“No source; pure assumption.”
Are you… not familiar with the events that take place in Honkai Impact 3rd? I’d understand if you were asking me to prove specific one off statements/events, but this is the second time back to back that you seemed to forget major plot points about the arc this crt is about. Please reread 2nd eruption.

 

[GarrixianXD]

Because you’d have to somehow prove your interpretation is more valid then there’s. They explained why the quote seems more inclined to support their interpretation over yours.

Lol no. They’re wrong. This is like I have to prove that 1+1=2 is correct rather than 1+1=3 which is just… well, no evidence provided so there’s that.

“No source; pure assumption.”
Are you… not familiar with the events that take place in Honkai Impact 3rd? I’d understand if you were asking me to prove specific one off statements/events, but this is the second time back to back that you seemed to forget major plot points about the arc this crt is about. Please reread 2nd eruption.

Well, there ya go. Nothing implies that she’ll die from the stellar detonation, she just said “thank god it didn’t explode”.

 

[inkownn]

“Lol no. They’re wrong. This is like I have to prove that 1+1=2 is correct rather than 1+1=3 which is just… well, no evidence provided so there’s that.”
That’s not analogous. You have yet to point out the error in the logical process behind his interpretation, while you can do the same with 1 + 1 = 3.
When putting 1 + 1 in a calculator you’ll find that-
1 + 1 = 2 (true)
And since
2 = 3 (false)
1 + 1 ≠ 3
He does provide evidence, “Keyword is tried, not that he'd successfully detonate it and then Sirin has a 99% chance of surviving it. He did try to detonate it, and Sirin did stop him before he succeeded. It means that he always had a low chance of even being able to blow himself up in the first place.”
You haven’t attacked is train of logic at all, and are simply claiming it is false because it is illogical. You are begging the question.

Well, there ya go. Nothing implies that she’ll die from the stellar detonation, she just said “thank god it didn’t explode”.

“Thank god it didn’t explode” implies that she was scared of it exploding, therefore insinuating that it CAN fatally harm her. If it only had a 1% chance of killing her I doubt she’d even care about stopping it, and even if she did she wouldn’t look so crazed in her attempt to stop it in time. Your interpretation isn’t narratively consistent in comparison to Neutral, therefore you cannot just discard it because you dislike it.

 

[CurrySenpai]

“Thank god it didn’t explode” implies that she was scared of it exploding, therefore insinuating that it CAN fatally harm her. If it only had a 1% chance of killing her I doubt she’d even care about stopping it, and even if she did she wouldn’t look so crazed in her attempt to stop it in time. Your interpretation isn’t narratively consistent in comparison to Neutral, therefore you cannot just discard it because you dislike it.

This argumentation makes no sense. People can be considered that something is going to explode without the reason being “oh it could kill me.”

 

[GarrixianXD]

“Lol no. They’re wrong. This is like I have to prove that 1+1=2 is correct rather than 1+1=3 which is just… well, no evidence provided so there’s that.”
That’s not analogous. You have yet to point out the error in the logical process behind his interpretation, while you can do the same with 1 + 1 = 3.
When putting 1 + 1 in a calculator you’ll find that-
1 + 1 = 2 (true)
And since
2 = 3 (false)
1 + 1 ≠ 3
He does provide evidence, “Keyword is tried, not that he'd successfully detonate it and then Sirin has a 99% chance of surviving it. He did try to detonate it, and Sirin did stop him before he succeeded. It means that he always had a low chance of even being able to blow himself up in the first place.”
You haven’t attacked is train of logic at all, and are simply claiming it is false because it is illogical. You are begging the question.

Okay, I see the line of logic now. Yeah sure, Sirin has a 99 chance of surviving it but the chances weren't 100. Also, if it's going to kill Welt then why did Sirin grab the core anyway? Might as well just be writing inconsistency or Sirin doesn't know much about the core and what it's actually capable of; Tesla surely is certain that Welt is gonna blow himself up from the supernova detonation.

 

[inkownn]

This argumentation makes no sense. People can be considered that something is going to explode with the reason being “oh it could kill me.”

Exactly.. She knew that the explosion had a likely chance of killing her, which is why she stopped it before it happened and commended Welt for his senility. If it truly had a 1% chance of killing her I doubt she would’ve tried so hard, her core clearly overloading within the scans, to stop it. Breathing a heavy sigh of relief after and saying “that was so close”. Saying “thank goodness I got it out before it exploded” implies that it exploding would’ve had drastic effects on her.

 

[Lynieryz]

All of the opposition's arguments come from two things:
1° Incredulity[The wiki does not accept this as valid]
2° And the idea that Destructive Capacity = Attack Potency[This idea goes against the accepted Wiki standard]
So unless the opposition does:
1° Use arguments that do not depend on the two things mentioned above.
2° Make a CRT to change the currently accepted standard[This would affect 99% of the verses on the Wiki as they are all based on DC≠AP]
Ignore them;What they are currently arguing goes against the Wiki, so until they start doing one of the two things mentioned above just ignore them and call the mods to evaluate the thread.

 

[CurrySenpai]

Exactly.. She knew that the explosion had a likely chance of killing her, which is why she stopped it before it happened and commended Welt for his senility. If it truly had a 1% chance of killing her I doubt she would’ve tried so hard, her core clearly overloading within the scans, to stop it. Breathing a heavy sigh of relief after and saying “that was so close”. Saying “thank goodness I got it out before it exploded” implies that it exploding would’ve had drastic effects on her.

I meant to type without, lol

 

[inkownn]

All of the opposition's arguments come from two things:
1° Incredulity[The wiki does not accept this as valid]
2° And the idea that Destructive Capacity = Attack Potency[This idea goes against the accepted Wiki standard]
So unless the opposition does:
1° Use arguments that do not depend on the two things mentioned above.
2° Make a CRT to change the currently accepted standard[This would affect 99% of the verses on the Wiki as they are all based on DC≠AP]
What they are currently arguing goes against the Wiki, so until they start doing one of the two things mentioned above just ignore them and call the mods to evaluate the thread.

If that’s the two things you believe the arguments came down to you are cooked beyond belief.
Throwing around the word incredulity doesn’t mean much without actual evidence to back it up. The opposition has provided scans and a multitude of arguments here, you for one haven’t refuted a single one. Not a single time has any of the opposition said, “I refuse to believe this is true”.

For AP DC, you are literally so so so not in tune with the current state of the discussion. That was a single point addressed like 12 hours ago, in which it was established that the argument was not saying DC = AP, and instead arguing that the catastrophic destructive effects that MUST come from a supernova WOULDVE destroyed the planet.

 

[inkownn]

I meant to type without, lol

Oh, then no. I don’t see why Sirin would say, “that was close” if she wasn’t afraid it would kill her. What was close? Why was so telling that she was so scared of it exploding? She can regenerate and even if her heart is damaged she can come back without any diffcutly. So it wouldn’t make sense to be scared unless there was a likely chance she would’ve died.

 

[inkownn]

Besides, the agree to disagree is 6-5 right now anyway and most points have been brought up and discussed. So bringing the mods now is a good thing anyway I would think.

 

[CurrySenpai]

Oh, then no. I don’t see why Sirin would say, “that was close” if she wasn’t afraid it would kill her. What was close? Why was so telling that she was so scared of it exploding? She can regenerate and even if her heart is damaged she can come back without any diffcutly. So it wouldn’t make sense to be scared unless there was a likely chance she would’ve died.

Figures of speech exist, not everything has to have some all mighty meaning related to scale.

 

[inkownn]

Figures of speech exist, not everything has to have some all mighty meaning related to scale.

The “figure of speech” are two statements supporting our interpretation along with her expression and her actions. All this evidence supports the interpretation that the explosion was a real danger to her. What evidence do you guys have to support your interpretation (IE, that 99% chance to survive was referring to her surviving the explosion rather than referring to her taking out his core first)

 

[CurrySenpai]

The “figure of speech” are two statements supporting our interpretation along with her expression and her actions. All this evidence supports the interpretation that the explosion was a real danger to her. What evidence do you guys have to support your interpretation (IE, that 99% chance to survive was referring to her surviving the explosion rather than referring to her taking out his core first)

Cool, I'm not convinced.

 

[inkownn]

And they say the opposition are the ones making arguments from incredulity.

 

[Neutralino]

You provided no evidence of it being a suicide attack.

False, it means “attempt” under the context. And no, nothing implies that Sirin can prevent Welt from initiating the herrscher core detonation.

Tesla being distraught that Welt would die from it has since been posted.

Attempt and try mean the exact same thing. No phrase in the CN text says that Sirin would survive the direct explosion.

 

[GarrixianXD]

Since the grace is over, I will make my last post countering points relevant to the OP, as I have seen some derailing here and there.

Arguments that depend on AOE.



This is the most basic, not only is AP not equal to DC here on this wiki, we are directly told that it is possible to restrict Honkai energy to take up less space possible.

It doesn't scale arguments.



An umbrella term for various arguments in which the main point is that this shouldn't scale, either because we can't use Welt's quote, or the Chandrasekhar limit shown in the scan, or that the feat is self-destructing, Sirin shouldn’t scale, or his energy shouldn’t be there.

The first is quite simple, looking at the scan we are told by Welt that he was going to carry out the process of stellar collapse to generate an explosion, and in the same scan we have the Chandrasekhar limit. The scans in the op basically tell us that Welt will compress his core to this limit, which would give us the value of 1.4 solar masses + the explosion would give us a value to add as a support evidence for the current 4-A rating as this was done with him having only 47% and his powers at that time. The argument comes from the fact that the Welt’s quote and the panel present in the same scan are unrelated, I disagree because they were both talking about the same thing, and the context of the scan does allow us to link it because the scan is only talking about Welt's feat, there's nothing else the panel could have been referring to if not Welt's speech, because they were talking about the same thing and the panel just reassured what Welt said.

explosions can be scaled yes, especially in point-blank/concentrated ones. It was also argued that Welt's energy couldn't be at that level because there are several feats lower than that, the verse currently has several tier 4 feats accepted, and is literally the tier accepted on his profile for him now. And we go with high-ends here.

The explosion killing him is fair enough, but Sirin would still scale because she's stronger than him and Welt said she wouldn't die. Whether she stops or not, she can still scale because Welt no longer thought she would die from it and we already know that Sirin was stronger than him anyway.

I also gave other arguments here.

@DarkDragonMedeus @Elizhaa Thoughts?

 

[GarrixianXD]

(Hoyostans has a page with full translated dialogue from the VN on this you can Control+F and type "projection" and "manifold" to get the gist and the context)

Also, with all due respect can we not link off-site unofficial unknown sites? We cannot determine the reliability or authenticity. This is far worse than using Kanzenshuu for Dragon Ball scaling.

 

[CurrySenpai]

So what was the result cause ther ewas no agreeing or disagreeing tally

 

[GarrixianXD]

So what was the result cause ther ewas no agreeing or disagreeing tally

DDM agreed initially. So staff disagreements so far.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Since the grace is over, I will make my last post countering points relevant to the OP, as I have seen some derailing here and there.

Arguments that depend on AOE.



This is the most basic, not only is AP not equal to DC here on this wiki, we are directly told that it is possible to restrict Honkai energy to take up less space possible.

It doesn't scale arguments.



An umbrella term for various arguments in which the main point is that this shouldn't scale, either because we can't use Welt's quote, or the Chandrasekhar limit shown in the scan, or that the feat is self-destructing, Sirin shouldn’t scale, or his energy shouldn’t be there.

The first is quite simple, looking at the scan we are told by Welt that he was going to carry out the process of stellar collapse to generate an explosion, and in the same scan we have the Chandrasekhar limit. The scans in the op basically tell us that Welt will compress his core to this limit, which would give us the value of 1.4 solar masses + the explosion would give us a value to add as a support evidence for the current 4-A rating as this was done with him having only 47% and his powers at that time. The argument comes from the fact that the Welt’s quote and the panel present in the same scan are unrelated, I disagree because they were both talking about the same thing, and the context of the scan does allow us to link it because the scan is only talking about Welt's feat, there's nothing else the panel could have been referring to if not Welt's speech, because they were talking about the same thing and the panel just reassured what Welt said.

explosions can be scaled yes, especially in point-blank/concentrated ones. It was also argued that Welt's energy couldn't be at that level because there are several feats lower than that, the verse currently has several tier 4 feats accepted, and is literally the tier accepted on his profile for him now. And we go with high-ends here.

The explosion killing him is fair enough, but Sirin would still scale because she's stronger than him and Welt said she wouldn't die. Whether she stops or not, she can still scale because Welt no longer thought she would die from it and we already know that Sirin was stronger than him anyway.

I also gave other arguments here.

@DarkDragonMedeus @Elizhaa Thoughts?

Looks good to me.

 

[Vietthai96]

I don't remember we talking about DC or AP here but that Welt core detonation isn't even tier 4 at all

 

[CurrySenpai]

DDM agreed initially. So staff disagreements so far.

This does not answer my question

 

[inkownn]

So what was the result cause ther ewas no agreeing or disagreeing tally

6 agreed, 5 disagreed. You can count to verify

 

[GarrixianXD]

6 agreed, 5 disagreed. You can count to verify

Blue name votes do not count.

 

[inkownn]

This is the most basic, not only is AP not equal to DC here on this wiki, we are directly told that it is possible to restrict Honkai energy to take up less space possible.

I swear to god. I have continually said this is not an AP vs DC situation and gave my reasoning on it but you guys continue to ignore it. This is NOT an AP vs DC situation. The argument is more based around Welt’s morality. If he were to compress his core to 1.4 solar masses he would’ve blown up the earth, which he would never do FRA. The second part is a better counter point, however is still invalid due to the fact that Welt cannot use Honkai energy to restrict the blast radius as he will be dead the moment the core explodes.

“the context of the scan does allow us to link it because the scan is only talking about Welt's feat, there's nothing else the panel could have been referring to if not Welt's speech”
it kinda annoys me how you continuously fail to address the alternate interpretation given to why the Chandrasekhar limit is on the screen but whatever I’ll say it again.
The context of the scan doesn’t just talk about Welt performing a feat, it also talks about how he needs to imitate the process of a stellar collapse. The Chandrasekhar limit is apart of the process to a white dwarf star’s stellar collapse, and so it may be on screen to reference how objects have limits on the gravity they can be put under without exploding.

“Welt said she wouldn't die”
This fails to address the alternate interpretation that the scan shown above was referring to how her “survival” of the attack is not because she would tank it, but because she would stop him from blowing up (which is actually what she did to survive). Welt was also confident that the bomb could harm her and even take her out in that same chapter, it would be confusing that he would suddenly backtrack on his word. You yourself actually mention this would cause a narrative inconsistency, but that would only be the case if we take your interpretation.

You also didn’t address many other things, so to give a big picture for my probably final message.

1. Mimicking the process of a stellar collapse does not mean the energy values would also be the same. You can imitate processes (step by step) but not yield the same result. An easy example is how all stars collapse under the same process but do not produce the same energy values. Welt is just compressing his core beyond its limits to make it explode.

2. The Chandrasekhar limit being in the panel doesn’t mean it’s what Welt crushes his core by. There’s no statement for that to be the case. It could just be there to demonstrate that objects have limits on the force they can take before they explode. The most obvious reason for this interpretation to be true is that Welt’s core is not a white dwarf star, so why would it mysteriously have the same limit?

3. To counter the point above, it was argued that Welt’s core simply weighs as much as a white dwarf star, and that is why is coincidentally shares the same limit. However this is not true as regular humans lift herrscher cores and divine keys (made of herrscher cores).

4. Welt was not saying Sirin had a 99% chance of face tanking his attack, she was saying he had a 99% chance of surviving. This could be through other means like stopping him from exploding, which is actually what she did.

5. Welt would never put the planet at risk, he a protector of humanity. Compressing his core under 1.4 solar masses to create a supernova would destroy the Earth and kill himself instantly so he wouldn’t be able to restore the blast radius. Making it unlikely that he would willingly try to do this.

 

[inkownn]

Blue name votes do not count.

I’m sorry, every name looks blue to me. Do you mean only mods have votes that count?

 

[Vietthai96]

Blue name votes do not count.

As Honkai Impact 3rd expert, i'm green name and my vote is half count

 

[GarrixianXD]

I’m sorry, every name looks blue to me. Do you mean only mods have votes that count?

Yes.

As Honkai Impact 3rd expert, i'm green name and my vote is half count

Damn bro.

 

[Shiroiyo]

The second part is a better counter point, however is still invalid due to the fact that Welt cannot use Honkai energy to restrict the blast radius as he will be dead the moment the core explodes.

Last reply fr now don't @me. I never denied that, Sirin still scales due to being able to tank the point-blank explosion, but in the end, no one said that Welt can only control his Honkai energy after he releases it. Since, Herrschers control the Honkai energy flow since from the Imaginary space, Imaginary space being the source of Honkai Energy outside the Real Space, in the first scan above also tells us that the source of Honkai eruptions comes from Imaginary space, since the flow/eruption itself comes from there and then goes into the Real Space. Herrschers are able to control flow of Honkai energy while still in Imaginary space and then bring it into reality (that's how eruptions are actually created) These sets of scans tell us that yes, Welt can manipulate Honkai energy even before it enters in the real space, since this is done through the Herrscher core itself, the same core he is using to perform the feat.

“Welt said she wouldn't die”
This fails to address the alternate interpretation that the scan shown above was referring to how her “survival” of the attack is not because she would tank it, but because she would stop him from blowing up (which is actually what she did to survive). Welt was also confident that the bomb could harm her and even take her out in that same chapter, it would be confusing that he would suddenly backtrack on his word. You yourself actually mention this would cause a narrative inconsistency, but that would only be the case if we take your interpretation.

No, it makes sense, Sirin didn't seem at all afraid of what he was going to do, you can argue that Sirin said it was good that he didn't blow up the core, but the reason for that is because Sirin wanted his powers, this is told to us right afterwards in the same chapter. Sirin in character would freak out at things that could hurt her, the fact that she had a smirk on her face and not a terrified look, this is supported by Welt no longer having any hope, since he knew that had only one percent chance of destroying her.

1. Mimicking the process of a stellar collapse does not mean the energy values would also be the same. You can imitate processes (step by step) but not yield the same result. An easy example is how all stars collapse under the same process but do not produce the same energy values. Welt is just compressing his core beyond its limits to make it explode.

2. The Chandrasekhar limit being in the panel doesn’t mean it’s what Welt crushes his core by. There’s no statement for that to be the case. It could just be there to demonstrate that objects have limits on the force they can take before they explode. The most obvious reason for this interpretation to be true is that Welt’s core is not a white dwarf star, so why would it mysteriously have the same limit?

@GarrixianXD did adress it on their last reply.

3. To counter the point above, it was argued that Welt’s core simply weighs as much as a white dwarf star, and that is why is coincidentally shares the same limit. However this is not true as regular humans lift herrscher cores and divine keys (made of herrscher cores).

To begin with, Dr.MEI became a Herrscher after linking with the Imaginary space (She is no longer a normal human after that), you skipped that in your scans as this scan is right before yours, and in relation to Kiana, the death core was releasing Honkai energy, Kiana has already demonstrated knowing how to absorb this energy just by coming into contact with it, and we are also told that she reduced the Honkai levels of the gem since she can absorb the energy, this would explain why, since absorbing Honkai energy makes people stronger.

4. Welt was not saying Sirin had a 99% chance of face tanking his attack, she was saying he had a 99% chance of surviving. This could be through other means like stopping him from exploding, which is actually what she did.

I have explained it in this text before.

5. Welt would never put the planet at risk, he a protector of humanity. Compressing his core under 1.4 solar masses to create a supernova would destroy the Earth and kill himself instantly so he wouldn’t be able to restore the blast radius. Making it unlikely that he would willingly try to do this.

I thought you weren't arguing DC = AP? but anyway, as has already been posted here, Welt can control Honkai energy before it even enters real space, and he can concentrate it and restrict the explosion to the smallest space, which would be ideal here as Sirin would take the whole radius of the explosion on her face. Even ignoring that, at that point nothing mattered anymore, Sirin had already started to throw meteors at Earth and Welt was about to be defeated, he knew it and at least tried to take her with him. Because if he hadn't, nothing would have stopped her from going back to throw meteors at Earth.

 

[Propellus]

It honestly took me a goddamn while to dig through this whole thread.

I'm not really that educated in this kind of verse, but what I'm getting at from these counter arguments are basing off most of their claims off a mistranslation that is rather seen in the wrong context, and taking figure of speech way too seriously. So I'm leaning into agreeing onto this

 

[GarrixianXD]

It honestly took me a goddamn while to dig through this whole thread.

I'm not really that educated in this kind of verse, but what I'm getting at from these counter arguments are basing off most of their claims off a mistranslation that is rather seen in the wrong context, and taking figure of speech way too seriously. So I'm leaning into agreeing onto this

Thanks for the help. If you're definite that this thread can pass then feel free to close the discussion.

 

[Propellus]

I'd say you should try getting one more evaluating staff for a more safer measure before I close this