Creation Feats & Tiering System Note 3

[Agnaa]

The Tiering System page's third note says that many tiers cannot be assigned without a calculation as their minimums are arbitrary values.

However, the Creation Feats page says that creation feats should be given tiers corresponding to the object that's created, i.e. creating a medium-sized building would be ranked at Building level. But the examples here contradict the note on the Tiering System page; which doesn't allow any tiers between 9-B and 7-B to be assigned without a calc.

So, are creation feats an exception to this note, or should they not be assigned values for those tiers? If they're not an exemption quite a few pages would need to be changed. I'd also wonder if there's any fallback; i.e. we're allowed to assign 9-B without a calc, does that mean that creating buildings could be given a 9-B rating since a wall was created? Large Country level isn't able to be assigned without a calc, does that mean that creating one could get a 6-B rating? Although, taking this to its extreme, even creating small cities would only give Wall level...

If they're an exception that should be mentioned in the note on the Tiering System page.

Bonus Question: Can the creation of other objects be loosely equalized to tiers? Can the creation of a massive tree the size of a skyscraper give a character Large Building level AP?

 

[Tllmbrg]

Just don’t tier creation feats unless the series itself gives value to it
(So yah your dude is Unknown tier now)

 

[Tllmbrg]

Anyways I jest, sure I agree to this

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

DontTalkDT made a page for creation feats explaining the case by case scenarios, but I have a busy schedule today and cannot be too elaborate unfortunately.

 

[Agnaa]

Bump. I'm trying to make a profile that's running into this issue, so I'd really like it clarified.

 

[Agnaa]

Bump.

 

[Agnaa]

Bump.

 

[Agnaa]

Bump.

 

[Agnaa]

Bump (._.)

 

[Agnaa]

Bump?

 

[Antoniofer]

Esh, don't known, better I could suggest is to simply put the Unknown rating (at the end, and does not cause damage by simply creating things, unless you create them in mid air or can launch them), but several users would disagree with that.

 

[Qawsedf234]

I say either put them at unknown, do something about matter displacement about creating the new thing, or separate their creation stat from their AP.

 

[Agnaa]

My main issues with those ideas are that they're massive changes in standards, rather than just tuning the current standards to be consistent.

Given how past threads on considering creation to not be AP have gone, I'd rather not have this thread be derailed into that.

 

[Antvasima]

The third note says hat tiers between 9-A and High 6-A cannot be assigned without a calculation.

Creation feats are tricky, since they do not correspond to destructive energy output, and many characters greatly differ in their abilities to create objects or pocket universes and scale of destructive feats.

I previously suggested assigning specific standards by volume for creation feats, but think that it was voted down.

I will ask for staff help for discussing your topics in any case.

@AKM sama @Promestein @DontTalkDT @Ultima_Reality @SomebodyData @Dragonmasterxyz @Celestial_Pegasus @Soldier_Blue @Andytrenom @DarkDragonMedeus @Wokistan @Mr._Bambu @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Damage3245 @Starter_Pack @Ogbunabali @Abstractions

Would you be willing to help out here please?

 

[Damage3245]

I have mixed feelings on creation feats in general. I agree with Qaws' point up above.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I say require calcs if those are possible (GBE, PE, the usual stuff applies). Otherwise they should be left at Unknown.

 

[DontTalkDT]

If a calc is possible it's best to use that.
Otherwise, I would employ the "When there is any doubt whether a certain object qualifies for a certain tier it is advisable to take the lowest ranking that still appears plausible."-rule mentioned on the tiering system page.
If you create a giant realm that houses multiple cities and a big mountain range, in a fashion where creation would apply to AP, and you are not sure whether that is big enough for country or island level... well, I think there are few doubts that it is large enough to at least grant Mountain level. So put that.

As for the tree matter: In principal yes, although a tree might not be the best example given that it can be grown. 'cause it's a plant and all that.

Antvasima's volume list is a good idea, provided we can agree on values. That will probably be the difficult part.

 

[Andytrenom]

The fact that tiers like mountain level.aren't actually based on mountain related feats means creating or destroying a mountain shouldn't give you that tier period. Same goes for every tier that doesn't have a source

I say we require calculation for them all, otherwise look for other feats or put it at unknown

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I share the same thoughts as DontTalkDT.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that a volume list combined with separating the tiers for creation and destruction feats when they do not correspond to each other seems like the least bad solution.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I recall Elizhaa was also someone on the previous thread who mentioned a pretty strong compromise solution also.

 

[Antvasima]

@Elizhaa

Would you be willing to comment here regarding that?

 

[Elizhaa]

Sorry, I think what I discussed was another topic thing like being against limiting creating feats to tier like 5-C and above.

Currently, I also shared the same thought as DontTalkDT.

 

[KLOL506]

I am also in agreement with DontTalkDT.

 

[Agnaa]

@Mr._Bambu GBE only applies for stellar objects, and PE (I think?) only applies for objects created in the air. Someone on Discord did suggest calculating creation feats by using the energy required to expand a volume against an external pressure. The reasoning goes that, if you're creating a mountain, the air that was there has to be pushed out in the process, which requires energy. Is this something that seems viable enough to be looked into?

EDIT: I asked, and it seems like the forumla ends up being "For every liter of volume displaced at atmospheric pressure, you generate 101.3 joules", or to go to units we more often use on the site, it's 0.1013 joules per cubic centimeter.

@DontTalkDT So to clarify, you're saying that eyeballing creation feats overwrites the note on the Tiering System page that almost all tiers between 9-A and High 6-B can't be given without a calculation? If so, that note should be reworded to clarify that it doesn't apply to Creation feats.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that a volume list combined with separating the tiers for creation and destruction feats when they do not correspond to each other seems like the least bad solution.

So would the rest of you be willing to help DontTalk figue out an appropriate tier by volume list for creation feats? I would greatly appreciate the help.

 

[Andytrenom]

"So to clarify, you're saying that eyeballing creation feats overwrites the note on the Tiering System page that almost all tiers between 9-A and High 6-B can't be given without a calculation? If so, that note should be reworded to clarify that it doesn't apply to Creation feats."

It should absolutely not override the note. There's literally no reason why it should. We don't give these tiers without a calculation because they aren't actually based on their namesake or it can't be proven, creation feats don't suddenly change that fact

 

[Antvasima]

We preferably need a mathematical explosion basis for the required volume of creation feats.

However, this is an extremely important task, that we have to live with afterwards, due to how widespread the usage will be, so it cannot remotely be a rush job.

 

[Agnaa]

Eugh, I really wish you two would respond to more than 1 part of my posts at a time. I've included more to my posts, including extra hypotheticals if we don't allow creation feats to reach those tiers, and alternate calculation methods, which I now have to repeat.

So @Andy Is there any "fallback" allowed? i.e. we're allowed to assign 9-B without a calc, does that mean that creating buildings could be given a 9-B rating since a wall was created? Large Country level isn't able to be assigned without a calc, does that mean that creating one could get a 6-B rating? Although, taking this to its extreme, even creating small cities would only give Wall level...

@Ant Using explosions to calculate creation feats has been strongly, strongly, strongly rejected in the past. Because the explosion of TNT or a nuke has absolutely nothing to do with creation. Here's the options we have for creation feats so far:

1. Gravitational Binding Energy, the energy that needs to be added to a gravitationally-bound system to make it no longer held together by gravity. The amount of energy that needs to be added to overcome its negative gravitational potential energy. This is sometimes combined with the inverse-square law (i.e. assuming some sort of exponentially decreasing energy wave) when used for creating multiple stellar objects. The issue with it is that this only applies to cosmic objects, and doesn't make sense for anything below tier 5.
2. Gravitational Potential Energy, the energy that an object has by virtue of being a certain elevation above the ground. The issue with it is that this only applies to objects that are created in the air.
3. Temperature Change, the energy needed to cool an object a certain amount. The issue with is is that this only applies to creating things of notable temperatures, like fire or ice.
4. Mass-Energy Equivalence, the amount of energy in raw matter itself, the amount of energy needed to create matter out of nothing. The issue with this is that it gives such obscenely high results (roughly as high as doing newtonian lightspeed KE with the object) that it's seen as unreliable.

You may notice that a lot of creation feats, like non-cosmic pocket realities, or the creation of buildings are unaccounted for. Last time we had a thread about how to change creation standards we settled on estimating by size/volume, since that was seen as the least-bad option.

However, there is a new idea. @KatBoi69 Has suggested using the "Energy to expand against an external pressure", essentially assuming that to create an object of a certain size, the air that was there would need to be pushed away against the atmosphere's pressure. Under our atmosphere that gives a result of 0.1013 joules per cubic centimeter. The issue with this is that many created objects involve a lot of empty space, such as buildings and towns, which would be heavily lowballed using this method.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

"doesn't make sense for anything below tier 5."

I feel like I've had this discussion before, but why not? If there were a small stellar object in space, say, the size of Manhattan island, why would GBE not work?

 

[Agnaa]

That is another avenue to go down, I'd at least like to see a few sample calcs of how that would turn out.

The best refutation I could give is that an object like that wouldn't be held together gravitationally. So talking about the energy needed to disrupt that system doesn't correspond well to anything that's happening.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

That is another avenue to go down, I'd at least like to see a few sample calcs of how that would turn out.

The best refutation I could give is that an object like that wouldn't be held together gravitationally. So talking about the energy needed to disrupt that system doesn't correspond well to anything that's happening.

I'm reminded of a Freddy Krueger calc that I did prior to becoming a Calc Group Member that was GBE for a very, very small planetoid roughly the size of a garbage dump that came out to 8-A. I could try to dig it up but GBE seems to give appropriate results until you hit extremely small objects.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, if explosion size scaling for tier by created volume doesn't work, I think that our calc group would have to decide the most appropriate alternative method. I do think that we should work out an official volume guideline, and frequently separate tier by attack potency and tier by creation though. Just look at Castlevania and Naruto for example.

 

[Bobsican]

Bump.

 

[KLOL506]

Well, if explosion size scaling for tier by created volume doesn't work, I think that our calc group would have to decide the most appropriate alternative method. I do think that we should work out an official volume guideline, and frequently separate tier by attack potency and tier by creation though. Just look at Castlevania and Naruto for example.

I mean, those have Creation feats well above Tier 6, Creation feats for Tier 5 and above are easily attainable thanks to GBE values and inverse-square law due to literally entering planetary to cosmic levels.

 

[Antvasima]

Staff and knowledgeable community member help would be very appreciated here.

 

[Agnaa]

Bump.

 

[Antvasima]

The third note says that tiers between 9-A and High 6-A cannot be assigned without a calculation.

Creation feats are tricky, since they do not correspond to destructive energy output, and many characters greatly differ in their abilities to create objects or pocket universes and scale of destructive feats.

I previously suggested assigning specific standards by volume for creation feats, but think that it was voted down.

If a calc is possible it's best to use that.
Otherwise, I would employ the "When there is any doubt whether a certain object qualifies for a certain tier it is advisable to take the lowest ranking that still appears plausible."-rule mentioned on the tiering system page.
If you create a giant realm that houses multiple cities and a big mountain range, in a fashion where creation would apply to AP, and you are not sure whether that is big enough for country or island level... well, I think there are few doubts that it is large enough to at least grant Mountain level. So put that.

As for the tree matter: In principal yes, although a tree might not be the best example given that it can be grown. 'cause it's a plant and all that.

Antvasima's volume list is a good idea, provided we can agree on values. That will probably be the difficult part.

@AKM sama @Promestein @SomebodyData @Dragonmasterxyz @Celestial_Pegasus @Soldier_Blue @DarkDragonMedeus @Wokistan @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Starter_Pack @Ogbunabali @Abstractions @Dino_Ranger_Black @Gemmysaur @JustSomeWeirdo @LordGriffin1000 @Theglassman12 @Crabwhale @Eficiente @GyroNutz @DarkGrath @The_Wright_Way @Moritzva @Firestorm808 @DemonGodMitchAubin @Everything12 @Duedate8898 @Planck69 @KingTempest @Executor_N0 @Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan @Therefir @Ugarik @DMUA @Jasonsith @Armorchompy @KieranH10 @Migue79

Would you be willing to help out here please?

 

[Armorchompy]

Really hit us with the avengers assemble huh

This is something worth bringing up even if only to make it clear, do we consider empty space to be created? Say I create a pocket dimension that's as big as a solar system but only contains a planet, am I 5-B or 4-B?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Well, one problem with a GPE method I notice is that creating a Skyscraper would come out as 8-A, which does seem fairly high.