Contumelia range upgrade

[Greenshifter]

Hey everyone, quick Ben 10 CRT.

The Contumelia are fifth dimensional beings as already indicated on their page. Their range is currently listed as unknown. Their range should be low complex multiversal and the range of things that interact with them should be low complex multiversal as well, which is the case for the Annihilargh from which they needed protection. This is all based purely on them being fifth dimensional.

Any discussion that is not about range in the thread will be considered derailment and I will ask staff to remove such comments.

 

[Quantu]

Do they have any higher dimensional feats? iirc being stated to be X dimensional on it's own is not enough for even a range upgrade,

For example

 

[Greenshifter]

Do they have any higher dimensional feats? iirc being stated to be X dimensional on it's own is not enough for even a range upgrade,

For example

Nope, but they have HDE contrary to that Mxy. I’m guessing that either Mxy is not stated to be fifth-dimensional in arrowverse but just from the fifth dimension or his page needs an update as well.

Using other characters as an example is pointless btw since I’m basing myself on the tiering system (Q&A).

 

[Thelastmlg]

Neither get low 1-C in anyway unless this fifth dimension has a infinite gap to the lower ones.

I don't even see why they have HDE to begin with

 

[Greenshifter]

Neither get low 1-C in anyway unless this fifth dimension has a infinite gap to the lower ones.

This implies that all beings that are considered to be higher-D on the site would be tier 1. Which is contradicted by the Q&A.

 

[Thelastmlg]

Are we seriously gon a start abusing the QnA again? Even there it says that the higher dimensions have to be infinitely bigger, and if it doesn't, it just contradicts the actual tiering page that takes precedent.

Low 1-C has a reality-fiction gap or similar and that's final, if the QnA implies otherwise, it needs to be corrected.

Even then, there are characters on the wiki with HDE without being low 1-C in anyway, because there is a very big difference between simple higher dimensions and tier 1 on the site.

 

[Greenshifter]

Are we seriously gon a start abusing the QnA again? Even there it says that the higher dimensions have to be infinitely bigger, and if it doesn't, it just contradicts the actual tiering page that takes precedent.

I'm merely using the Q&A to explain to others what is intuitively apparent to me.

Low 1-C has a reality-fiction gap or similar and that's final, if the QnA implies otherwise, it needs to be corrected.

This is for AP, not range. The Q&A was made to explain the tiering system, so it contradicting it would be odd, especially since it's made by the same people.

Even then, there are characters on the wiki with HDE without being low 1-C in anyway, because there is a very big difference between simple higher dimensions and tier 1 on the site.

Yes, I am here to correct that for range and only range.

 

[Planck69]

Just extending across 5 dimensions (assuming this is even the case) isn't enough for Low Complex Multiversal range. They very clearly can't affect or do anything on the scale of such a structure.

Seriously, this should be intuitive by now. This is like saying my range is Planetary or Universal or any other significant 3-dimensional size because I'm 3-dimensional.

 

[Greenshifter]

Just extending across 5 dimensions (assuming this is even the case) isn't enough for Low Complex Multiversal range. They very clearly can't affect or do anything on the scale of such a structure.

Low Complex Multiversal: Attacks and abilities that are able to reach throughout 5-dimensional to 6-dimensional space.

They can punch throughout 5D-space due to being that size. Not the entire space mind you, but still a portion of it that is relative to their size.

 

[Planck69]

Low Complex Multiversal: Attacks and abilities that are able to reach throughout 5-dimensional to 6-dimensional space.

They can punch throughout 5D-space due to being that size. Not the entire space mind you, but still a portion of it that is relative to their size.

That really, really needs to be amended. Something that's humanoid in proportion and size isn't affecting a significant enough portion of a 5-dimensional space with its size for it to matter enough for range, regardless of its proportions extending across more than 3 directions.

This should be obvious enough considering that Low Complex Multiversal range is superior in scope to Multiversal+ range but a 5, 6 or even 7-dimensional cube a foot across clearly isn't larger than an infinite multiverse.

 

[Thelastmlg]

The QNA really needs some fixing to avoid this, is like the third someone tries to push a tier 1 upgrade in any way because 1 or 2 sections of the QnA somewhat imply you don't need to be infinitely superior, completely contradicting the entire idea of the tier

So you want to give them a tier objectively made to be infinitely superior to multiversal+, without them having this gap, just because they reside in 5 dimensions?

See the issue?

 

[Planck69]

Honestly, it's self apparent enough with the context of the whole page. People just either misunderstand like here or try to push for stuff via skirting through the wording.

Range needs to be better elaborated though.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Maybe we should coin a new term instead of just simply range alone. Range is distance oriented mainly, while we are dealing with directions.
Since higher dimensions primarily deal with extra-dimensional axis, maybe it should be called "Coverage". The ability to move through spatial axis which are extra over regular 3 dimensions.

The QNA really needs some fixing to avoid this, is like the third someone tries to push a tier 1 upgrade in any way because 1 or 2 sections of the QnA somewhat imply you don't need to be infinitely superior, completely contradicting the entire idea of the tier

I can't understand why you are bringing up Tier 1 AP stuff. Also the page is pretty clear cut that you need to be infinitely superior for AP shenanigans for HD bodies.

Also the only difference between HD bodies and Tier 1 is power and power alone. So it has no bearing on range or . That's one of the reasons HDE haxxes aren't smurf if they aren't tier 1, they are just range.

Low Complex Multiversal: Attacks and abilities that are able to reach throughout 5-dimensional to 6-dimensional space.

They can punch throughout 5D-space due to being that size. Not the entire space mind you, but still a portion of it that is relative to their size.

This is fine.

 

[Thelastmlg]

I'm not, low 1-C range and AP both require the same kind of gap to tier 2, because it is SUPERIOR, is the whole point of tier 1.

If you have low 1-C range, you affected a structure infinitely bigger than a tier 2 one, either you get AP from this or not is irrelevant, it still requires the higher dimensions to have a infinite gap

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

I'm not, low 1-C range and AP both require the same kind of gap to tier 2, because it is SUPERIOR, is the whole point of tier 1.

Superior is a word with multiple interpretation in our case. As far as Q&A is concerned it mean infinite energy filling up HD bodies.
Only difference between Tier 1 and HDE is former having infinite energy while latter doesn't. Q&A explains that clearly.
Which as I have already said mean jackshit as far as range is concerned.

If you have low 1-C range, you affected a structure infinitely bigger than a tier 2 one, either you get AP from this or not is irrelevant, it still requires the higher dimensions to have a infinite gap

Maybe this case is similar to Interdimensional vs Low Multiversal as far as feats are concerned, but this time in context of HD stuff.
But you still don't need no tier 1 shenanigans.

 

[Greenshifter]

This should be obvious enough considering that Low Complex Multiversal range is superior in scope to Multiversal+ range

Where does it state that? Also there are tier 1's which can cover less distance than some tier 2's. Say some person who can affect an entire 5D universe vs DnD people who can affect an infinite^2 4D multiverse.

 

[sanicspood]

follwoing

 

[Planck69]

Where does it state that?

..........You're seriously asking me where it states that Low 1-C range is superior to 2-A range?????

Also there are tier 1's which can cover less distance than some tier 2's. Say some person who can affect an entire 5D universe vs DnD people who can affect an infinite^2 4D multiverse.

That isn't a smaller structure. A fully Low 1-C structure, which is what a 5-dimensional universe is, would need Low 1-C range to affect. This is not the same as some room sized blob that extends in 5 directions.

 

[Greenshifter]

That isn't a smaller structure. A fully Low 1-C structure, which is what a 5-dimensional universe is, would need Low 1-C range to affect. This is not the same as some room sized blob that extends in 5 directions.

The 2-A multiverse isn’t smaller, but you still need to cover more distance to reach the end of it. Considering distance is measured by taking the square root of the sum of the vector components squared. Where the 4th vector component in DnD way bigger than all vector components in a regular 5D universe that fits tier 1. Meaning the total distance covered in DnD is also bigger than the distance covered in the 5D universe. Aka more range.

..........You're seriously asking me where it states that Low 1-C range is superior to 2-A range?????

So yes, I am asking you to prove that this is always the case.

 

[Planck69]

The 2-A multiverse isn’t smaller, but you still need to cover more distance to reach the end of it. Considering distance is measured by taking the square root of the sum of the vector components squared. Where the 4th vector component in DnD way bigger than all vector components in a regular 5D universe that fits tier 1. Meaning the total distance covered in DnD is also bigger than the distance covered in the 5D universe. Aka more range.

As far as our current tiering system goes, it is. And all this is telling me is that range needs an overhaul if conclusions like this are what people are getting to.

So yes, I am asking you to prove that this is always the case.

...I honestly have no words for this.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

...I honestly have no words for this.

Folks will usually say anything to reach for upgrades.

Honestly I don’t know how this revision could work. If the Contumelia are unable to interact with constructs infinitely larger than 2-A ones how would we equate their range to Low 1-C?

 

[Planck69]

Folks will usually say anything to reach for upgrades.

Honestly I don’t know how this revision could work. If the Contumelia are unable to interact with constructs infinitely larger than 2-A ones how would we equate their range to Low 1-C?

Thank you for taking the words right out of my mouth.

 

[DemonicDude]

If the Contumelia are unable to interact with constructs infinitely larger than 2-A ones how would we equate their range to Low 1-C?

This note should be on main Ben 10 main page here on vsb.

 

[Greenshifter]

As far as our current tiering system goes, it is. And all this is telling me is that range needs an overhaul if conclusions like this are what people are getting to.

You can overhaul range all you want. Won’t change the math nor the logic I described. There is no way to overhaul range so that someone with Low 1-C range will always be able to interact with whatever tier 2 construct. If you were to ask people to prove this is the case within their verse they just wouldn’t be able to for like basically every verse.

You’re asking the equivalent of proving that a 3D being must be able to interact with the entire 2D plane, or they’re not truly 3D. Good luck with that one.

 

[Planck69]

You’re asking the equivalent of proving that a 3D being must be able to interact with the entire 2D plane, or they’re not truly 3D. Good luck with that one.

....That's literally the point. You're claiming that a 5-dimensional being has the range to interact with any sized 4-dimensional structure purely because they have an extra vector of movement.

Anyway, good luck with this one.

 

[Greenshifter]

....That's literally the point. You're claiming that a 5-dimensional being has the range to interact with any sized 4-dimensional structure purely because they have an extra vector of movement.

I’m arguing the opposite of that. I’m merely claiming that the range page does not require one to be able to interact with any 4D-sized dimensional structure if you have Low 1-C range. Cause if it did then basically no-one would have Low 1-C range since you’d be unable to argue that the 4th vector component of their range is at least as big as the 4th vector component of several very big 4D-sized constructs.

A reality-fiction gap also doesn’t change anything in this regard, it just adds more power, not more range as explained in the Q&A.

 

[Thelastmlg]

We already had other threads trying to upgrade stuff to tier 1 using the QnA and ignoring that other sections of it mention tier 1 needing infinite gaps, they were rejected foe a reason.

Our tier 1 in every stat is based on a reality-fiction gap, so YOU need to overhaul the tiering system to actually get this through rather than abusing singular parts of a page that does not take precedence over the the actual tiering page.

 

[Greenshifter]

We already had other threads trying to upgrade stuff to tier 1 using the QnA and ignoring that other sections of it mention tier 1 needing infinite gaps, they were rejected foe a reason.

Show me. Also I’d assume that be for AP, not range.

Our tier 1 in every stat is based on a reality-fiction gap, so YOU need to overhaul the tiering system to actually get this through rather than abusing singular parts of a page that does not take precedence over the the actual tiering page.

Prove it. Also I could just use the range page and not bring up the Q&A and my reasoning will hold. Like at this point I think we all agree what range the Contumelia actually have (a few meters across 5 dimensions), we just disagree on what to call it.

 

[Planck69]

Range: Standard melee range (though they extend across 5 dimensions)

There, says everything that needs to be said without miscommunicating that they can affect something larger than a multiverse.

 

[Greenshifter]

Range: Standard melee range (though they extend across 5 dimensions)

There, says everything that needs to be said without miscommunicating that they can affect something larger than a multiverse.

That is fair. However I am not sure if that is allowed since I’ve never seen is used like that. I suggest we wait for Ultima who I asked to comment here. Also the Annihilargh would have Low complex multiversal range for creating a 5D universe.

 

[Planck69]

That is fair. However I am not sure if that is allowed since I’ve never seen is used like that. I suggest we wait for Ultima who I asked to comment here. Also the Annihilargh would have Low complex multiversal range for creating a 5D universe.

Unless the Annihilargh is Low 1-C these days, no. Also, 5-D universe?????

 

[Greenshifter]

Unless the Annihilargh is Low 1-C these days, no. Also, 5-D universe?????

The Annihilaargh creates a universe and extends through 5 dimensions while doing so considering the Contumelia needed protection from it.

For like the 5th time this thread. This only applies to range, not AP.

 

[Planck69]

The Annihilaargh creates a universe and extends through 5 dimensions while doing so considering the Contumelia needed protection from it.

For like the 5th time this thread. This only applies to range, not AP.

......If the universe is equally extending through 5 dimensions then that universe is Low 1-C.

 

[Greenshifter]

......If the universe is equally extending through 5 dimensions then that universe is Low 1-C.

I don’t think so (AP-wise). You still need the reality-fiction gap as explained by Gilver earlier. It’s mainly got to do with how mass is an undimensioned quantity and mass directly relates to energy needed to destroy stuff.

 

[Planck69]

I don’t think so. You still need the reality-fiction gap as explained by Gilver earlier.

You don't, not exactly sure how the conversation got to that point. If one can prove the spatial dimensions are non-trivial in size then it qualifies for Tier 1.

 

[Greenshifter]

You don't, not exactly sure how the conversation got to that point. If one can prove the spatial dimensions are non-trivial in size then it qualifies for Tier 1.

Let’s just wait till Ultima gets here. Seems like the best thing to do at this point.

 

[Greenshifter]

Also I think you might be confused with Hypertimelines (and maximally extended space-times by extension) and how this factors into all of that since that seemed to grant Low 1-C by sheer size if you could argue it properly.

But perhaps the uncountable infinite snapshots thing makes more of a difference than initially thought (since I guess you can argue uncountable infinitely more mass from this). I’m not entirely sure on this myself.

 

[Planck69]

Also I think you might be confused with Hypertimelines (and maximally extended space-times by extension) and how this factors into all of that since that seemed to grant Low 1-C by sheer size if you could argue it properly.

But perhaps the uncountable infinite snapshots thing makes more of a difference than initially thought (since I guess you can argue uncountable infinitely more mass from this). I’m not entirely sure on this myself.

......No? a large 5-dimensional structure is a very basic way to get Low 1-C, basically what the Tiering System revision meant to implement. If someone creates a space-time continuum with 4 spatial dimensions and one temporal then that's a Low 1-C feat. The main point is that the dimensional axes aren't compact or really small in relation to each other.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

......No? a large 5-dimensional structure is a very basic way to get Low 1-C, basically what the Tiering System revision meant to implement. If someone creates a space-time continuum with 4 spatial dimensions and one temporal then that's a Low 1-C feat. The main point is that the dimensional axes aren't compact or really small in relation to each other.

The universe has 4 spatial dimensions

 

[Planck69]

The universe has 4 spatial dimensions

1. That page literally does nothing but describe a hypothetical world with 4 spatial dimensions.

2. Current scientific consensus certainly isn't that. if it is, then I'd welcome any more sources claiming so.

3. Even if it was, you'd have to update wiki standards and the tiering system before it becomes relevant here.