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It's kind of funny that I remember seeing that this 3 CTRs rule was temporary, because of the Forum change...
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Consistency of Saitama’s normal punch, along with an armored Boros durability suggestion.
- Thread starter ZillertheBucko
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It's definitely not just because of the forum change, but because we don't want people getting overwhelmed with CRT's and losing interest.
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I see, well anyway I think the limit should be a little higher, but ok.
Recon1511
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Just combine the Garou and WDM stuff in a single CRT instead of making two separate ones
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I'll address each proposal separately to keep things straight forward. Tackling the proposal to make Saitama's "normal punches" FTL to start with:
Regarding the Consecutive Normal Punches scene, this would surely not count for your point regarding "dodging" because Saitama wasn't attempting to dodge Garou's blows here, he was matching him one-to-one and they traded even hits on each other. Neither one looked like they were attempting to dodge here.
The bigger issue is that you say that there are instances of Garou tagging Saitama during their fight such as here and here, and if "Saitama is actually trying not to be hit" that much mean he is fighting at a consistent speed and Garou is surpassing that speed in order to tag Saitama... But I don't think that's supported if you look at the fight overall.
The thing is though, is that Saitama is essentially playing with Garou throughout this. When he wants to, he can smack aside Garou effortlessly despite being kicked down to the surface during their earlier battle.
Garou is getting stronger throughout the fight, and yet even when he has four arms and is unleashing a barrage of attacks with four arms at once, Saitama is able to parry him away singlehandedly.
When Saitama uses his Consecutive Normal Punches, he is capable of blitzing Garou quite easily.
So if you're saying "Despite Saitama dodging Garou's attacks, Garou is able to tag him, proving that Saitama is consistently FTL".... then I think these other scans show that Saitama isn't fighting a consistent, constant speed even while he's casual. Saitama can go from being tagged by Garou to blitzing Garou effortlessly all while still completely casual.
Taking a look at an earlier fight, Saitama can go from trading blows with unarmored Boros, to being "tagged" by Meteoric Burst Boros... to blitzing Boros once again with his "normal punches". All while being casual.
This is why we say that Saitama is a bad measuring stick for scaling. There is no "consistently FTL" normal Saitama; Saitama can be FTL while being casual but that doesn't mean every punch he throws is that fast.
We know that this version of Saitama is Massively Faster Than Light. At about 617 c.
And as you said the difference is "over a hundred times", with the earliest version of Garou that Saitama fights in the arc being FTL, with a speed of at least 4.33 c.
The thing is though, that making Saitama's "normal punches" FTL wouldn't do anything to fix this issue. Whether Saitama is punching seriously at MFTL, or punching casually at FTL, his reaction speed is still going to be the same as the only way he can "hold back" his reactions is if he just allows himself to be punched.
It seems like you're arguing that Monster Garou should be MFTL as well (if you believe Saitama shouldn't be remotely surprised or caught by any of Garou's moves) except that would contradict Awakened Garou being blitzed by Saitama's MFTL feat.
That is what we have to chalk it up to because we know that Saitama was never seriously trying to dodge Garou's blows by the simple fact that Saitama can move hundreds of times faster than Garou could here if he wanted, and can react hundreds of times faster than him.
Nothing Suiryu could do would be enough to keep Saitama from punching him, that is true. However Suiryu is so far below Monster Garou and Awakened Garou that it isn't even funny. I'm not sure what comparison is being drawn here.
Especially since Saitama treats Monster Garou no differently than he does Human Garou.
Saitama must be able to tell the difference in strength in the opponents he faces. That's just an obvious fact in how Saitama fights and doesn't use the same level of strength and speed each time.
How does this support a consistent speed though? Does Saitama throw slower punches when he is casual compared to when he is serious? Absolutely. That is beyond question. Does he always throw FTL punches? No, I don't see how the points about would prove that.
Regarding the Consecutive Normal Punches scene, this would surely not count for your point regarding "dodging" because Saitama wasn't attempting to dodge Garou's blows here, he was matching him one-to-one and they traded even hits on each other. Neither one looked like they were attempting to dodge here.
The bigger issue is that you say that there are instances of Garou tagging Saitama during their fight such as here and here, and if "Saitama is actually trying not to be hit" that much mean he is fighting at a consistent speed and Garou is surpassing that speed in order to tag Saitama... But I don't think that's supported if you look at the fight overall.
The thing is though, is that Saitama is essentially playing with Garou throughout this. When he wants to, he can smack aside Garou effortlessly despite being kicked down to the surface during their earlier battle.
Garou is getting stronger throughout the fight, and yet even when he has four arms and is unleashing a barrage of attacks with four arms at once, Saitama is able to parry him away singlehandedly.
When Saitama uses his Consecutive Normal Punches, he is capable of blitzing Garou quite easily.
So if you're saying "Despite Saitama dodging Garou's attacks, Garou is able to tag him, proving that Saitama is consistently FTL".... then I think these other scans show that Saitama isn't fighting a consistent, constant speed even while he's casual. Saitama can go from being tagged by Garou to blitzing Garou effortlessly all while still completely casual.
Taking a look at an earlier fight, Saitama can go from trading blows with unarmored Boros, to being "tagged" by Meteoric Burst Boros... to blitzing Boros once again with his "normal punches". All while being casual.
This is why we say that Saitama is a bad measuring stick for scaling. There is no "consistently FTL" normal Saitama; Saitama can be FTL while being casual but that doesn't mean every punch he throws is that fast.
We know that this version of Saitama is Massively Faster Than Light. At about 617 c.
And as you said the difference is "over a hundred times", with the earliest version of Garou that Saitama fights in the arc being FTL, with a speed of at least 4.33 c.
The thing is though, that making Saitama's "normal punches" FTL wouldn't do anything to fix this issue. Whether Saitama is punching seriously at MFTL, or punching casually at FTL, his reaction speed is still going to be the same as the only way he can "hold back" his reactions is if he just allows himself to be punched.
It seems like you're arguing that Monster Garou should be MFTL as well (if you believe Saitama shouldn't be remotely surprised or caught by any of Garou's moves) except that would contradict Awakened Garou being blitzed by Saitama's MFTL feat.
That is what we have to chalk it up to because we know that Saitama was never seriously trying to dodge Garou's blows by the simple fact that Saitama can move hundreds of times faster than Garou could here if he wanted, and can react hundreds of times faster than him.
Nothing Suiryu could do would be enough to keep Saitama from punching him, that is true. However Suiryu is so far below Monster Garou and Awakened Garou that it isn't even funny. I'm not sure what comparison is being drawn here.
Especially since Saitama treats Monster Garou no differently than he does Human Garou.
Saitama must be able to tell the difference in strength in the opponents he faces. That's just an obvious fact in how Saitama fights and doesn't use the same level of strength and speed each time.
How does this support a consistent speed though? Does Saitama throw slower punches when he is casual compared to when he is serious? Absolutely. That is beyond question. Does he always throw FTL punches? No, I don't see how the points about would prove that.
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And I’m gonna have to stop you right there
the initial punch is really what matters most, and I can already see that you’re misunderstanding it and bringing up punches that he does later in the fight
I’ll get to the rest later though.
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Take your time responding, but what your argument in the OP seems mostly to be about is "Saitama's normal punches", not his "initial punch". So that's what I addressed.
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Saitama very clearly dodging here, he is not intentionally letting Garou beat on him during this particular instance
Actually the fight overall does support it
like the scans given show, there are multiple scenes of saitama trying to hit Garou and being unable to due to garou’s speed. It’s very clear that saitama isn’t viewing Garou as hundreds of times slower than him in this instance, or else any attempt Garou made to dodge would be instantly reacted to and make him an easy target regardless of how much skill or speed he uses. It’s an impressive thing and definitely means something for garou’s speed, otherwise saitama wouldn’t be saying “what’s that weird way you’re moving and making my punches miss” when saitama didn’t at all react to the martial arts skill of any lesser opponent, like suiryu or snek or anyone at all. The main difference is that his wsrsf was fast enough for Saitama to actually take notice of it and acknowledging that Garou was actually able to force his punches to miss.
Yes, I do admit that saitama can choose to use more strength and speed as the battle goes on, which is sort of supported by saitama fighting evenly with released Boros, being shocked by meteoric burst Boros and launched to space, and then coming back and using more power to be able to beat him. Essentially I was suggesting that saitama starts every battle off using a certain speed (and power when he’s intending to kill), but whenever the fight lasts beyond the first punch he’d be using more power.
Saitama notices him having gotten a little better as well. Although yeah he was clearly toying with him, he was using enough power to dominate during the entire fight. Growing four arms would only double the difficulty, and if Garou was already being kind of stomped here then the growing four arms wouldn’t change things very much, so I’d say that saitama’s given reaction is perfectly reasonable.
Well yes, he is still casual, but casual saitama always has the option of just getting faster and stronger by holding back less over time, which especially makes sense here since he was trying to neutralize Garou without killing him instead of allowing him to rampage without any end, so he would always want to keep an advantage. After smacking his hands away saitama does say “just give up already” which shows his intentions during the fight were to just get Garou to stop fighting him.
And yes, saitama after the battle begins is inconsistent, we can’t say that the saitama that got outpaced by meteoric burst Boros was the same speed as the saitama that was able to blitz Garou at his fastest. However, we can still scale him using something like this
Varies from high 6-A ftl to at the very most mftl and 4-A when casual
So essentially, saitama started fighting Garou while he was ftl, and started fighting Boros when he was ftl, but afterwards he would be using more power and speed the longer the fight goes on. So while we can’t scale every instances casual saitama the same, we know that casual saitama at the end of a fight that takes more than one punch is most likely using more effort than the saitama at the start of any other fight.
The biggest example of this is probably when cosmic garou’s consecutive normal punches were able to outpace saitama’s and actually shock him, even though saitama wasn’t even using .01% of his max effort, it still came as a surprise to the casual saitama that had previously been stomping Perfect Garou, meaning when could scale cosmic Garou to be >> Peak Perfect Garou in both speed and power.
Also seen at the start of the fight against perfect Garou when saitama is like “sorry, you came at me kind fast” and just reflexively punches him.
Yes I did realize that it would be a bit weird to argue that saitama’s reactions are slower, but there is actually a pretty good explanation. When people are off guard, their reaction speed tends to slack behind a lot since they’re not actually preparing for a maneuver and the same thing applies here. Saitama is simply off guard and isn’t prepared to put in more effort when these things happen. While on one hand you could argue that no human being in real life could EVER get 100 times slower just by being off guard, that can as well be countered by the fact that Saitama’s max speed and power is so ridiculously insanely above comprehension, that the degree to which he would hold back to do everyday things would be like using below .0001% effort, which is completely incomparable to a regular human. In fact, I’m pretty sure that humans actually use more effort just sleeping than saitama would be using to slap away an extreme fa jin, so it makes sense that his “off guard” state would be lowered so much in reactions. That’s a good way of justifying how something like that could make sense. It’s kind of like how a mftl+ character could be hit by a bullet from behind, even though their reaction speed should indicate that they would be able to react to the bullet touching their skin in the very first nanosecond, but they just get hit anyways due to being off guard. It’s a fiction thing.
So yeah, saitama can be “blitzed” due to being off guard, even if his reactions are technically way higher. That’s why Meteoric Boros was able to surprise him and why Perfect Garou was able to pull a fast one against saitama with water stream rock smashing to the point where saitama didn’t really understand what kind of moving he was doing.
Exactly. The fact that Suiryu and Momster Garou are both so astronomically below saitama’s full power that it should be the different between .000001% and .00000000000000000000001%, and yet saitama still has a very clear different in reaction to the two of their levels of power and speed is what’s significant about that.
Well yes, but also remember that the high 6-A normal punch only applies when saitama is willing to kill. Saitama has never accidentally killed someone when he is trying to leave them alive, but it is also clear that saitama beats everyone worth killing in a single punch because he can afford to use the same power every time. Remember, when saitama is intending/willing to kill, there has never been a fodder that survives one of his blows, as shown in my examples and rebuttals relating to rover and kombu infinity.
As for speed, saitama has no reason to hold back his ftl speed to the same degree, since speed doesn’t kill. Therefore, beginning of fight casual saitama being ftl in every fight is also consistent.
The multiple instances of casual saitama having actions that are extremely inconsistent with someone allegedly viewing them as 100 times slower (for reference, you could take a video of pro boxer throwing a punch and set it to .25 speed, and it would be easy to react) combined with the lack of any anti feats suggesting that any slowpokes can dodge a punch from saitama or blitz him.
Anyways as usual, we absolutely do not agree with eachother about anything, but you once again do raise valid points that are worth discussing which is something I have to appreciate.
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Will respond later tonight.
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By the way, for clarification here
he notices Perfect Garou coming at him kinda fast and only punched him out of reflex, while he only punched human Garou to make him go away
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Bump
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Yes, in that particular instance.
Or Saitama chose not to instantly react to Garou. Which is easily provable since Saitama could easily blitz Garou later in the same fight.
Where is your evidence that he starts off every fight at consistent speeds?
Seems like you just agree with me for these two points.
Saying that casual Saitama is "Varies" is reasonable. Saying that he varies from a minimum of FTL is unreasonable.
Being casual is not the same thing as being "off guard". They have very different meanings.
I don't think that this explanation holds up with any evidence that Saitama's reactions are literally forced to be slowed down to FTL just because he isn't fighting seriously.
I don't see what's significant about that tbh.
Err, what exactly are you trying to say here? "There is no reason for Saitama to not be FTL, so therefore he is consistently FTL"? I don't understand what led to this conclusion.
Saitama being an inconsistent measuring stick is why we don't use him as a measuring stick for other characters. You can't say he's "extremely inconsistent" and then say that proves he is consistently FTL.
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Yes, the exact same instance in which Garou tags him and dodges a blow from him, which is why it’s brought up.
it’s late now though and I’ll have the energy to respond to the rest tomorrow.
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Gotta charge up that Spirit Bomb.
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- #95
Let’s get this over with
he is effectively able to stomp people while indeed being completely off guard. I mean we’ve accepted more extreme instances of even durability being lowered from this, like bullet level goku lmao, this is pretty same in comparison.
if Saitama is really viewing them both as if they were completely frozen, then the difference between monster Garou and suiryu would go completely past his head. It would be the difference between watching a snail and watching a snail with terminal illness and brain damage.
But if we assume that casual Saitama was perceiving them at ftl, then suddenly the contradictions begin to make sense. That’s why he was able to blitz suiryu while still being even somewhat annoyed and outmatched by Garou before putting in more effort.
Do you see now?
He is only inconsistent after the very start of a fight, and the very start of fights is what this crt aims to use for scaling.
A. It seems that you’re misunderstanding my premise here. I know that saitama can easily blitz Garou, but that’s only when he puts in more effort. When casual, I showed instances of Saitama being hit against his will when he was clearly trying to dodge, and saitama being outpaced when he was clearly trying to land a hit on Garou. The whole idea that this casual Saitama is viewing Garou at 1/100th of his speed crumbles when you consider how impossible it should be for Garou to be able to land anything on a saitama who’s trying to avoid his blows in the exact same instance.
Because of the evidence regarding his one punches being the same + a complete lack of anti feats + everything from A with the impossibilities regarding his reaction time + being able to be surprised by garou’s first attack and very clearly outpaced by meteoric burst Boros
Not sure how you came to that conclusion, I was simply demonstrating that Saitama was using more effort as the fight continues in order to keep an advantage on Garou.
Calling it unreasonable is not an argument. It’s best to stick with counterarguments in your responses.
I think I should remind you again of the fact that Saitama uses less energy when fighting his strongest opponents than human beings use to sleep
he is effectively able to stomp people while indeed being completely off guard. I mean we’ve accepted more extreme instances of even durability being lowered from this, like bullet level goku lmao, this is pretty same in comparison.
Then my friend, you need to see a little better
if Saitama is really viewing them both as if they were completely frozen, then the difference between monster Garou and suiryu would go completely past his head. It would be the difference between watching a snail and watching a snail with terminal illness and brain damage.
But if we assume that casual Saitama was perceiving them at ftl, then suddenly the contradictions begin to make sense. That’s why he was able to blitz suiryu while still being even somewhat annoyed and outmatched by Garou before putting in more effort.
Do you see now?
Well I suppose that’s a neat way to undersell and discredit my argument, but the point of that was to prove that it is completely reasonable from a practical standpoint and that there’s no contradicting evidence, which is important because if you had contradicting evidence, you would have brought it up by now, but I suspect that you don’t. You have a leg to stand on, but it will bend the knee quite soon my dear damage.
This is a removal of context.
He is only inconsistent after the very start of a fight, and the very start of fights is what this crt aims to use for scaling.
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Let me ask something more fundamental
if saitama is capable of knowing the power of his enemies off of just a glance and using just enough force to kill them and isn’t always throwing high 6-A punches, then what exactly was stopping the punch he threw at Boros from blasting him apart? I mean, it was very much thrown with intention to kill, so what gives?
It’s a bit strange if you ask me.
if saitama is capable of knowing the power of his enemies off of just a glance and using just enough force to kill them and isn’t always throwing high 6-A punches, then what exactly was stopping the punch he threw at Boros from blasting him apart? I mean, it was very much thrown with intention to kill, so what gives?
It’s a bit strange if you ask me.
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As a reminder, I'm only tackling the speed proposal right now.
I'll respond to your previous post when I can.
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There’s another thing I realized that I never brought up initially: there’s other examples of the speed thing in verse
For example, sonic being blitzed by genos before he used 4 shadows burial and began to blitz him
or to a lesser extent, flashy being equal with gale and hellfire before he used flashy slash
For example, sonic being blitzed by genos before he used 4 shadows burial and began to blitz him
or to a lesser extent, flashy being equal with gale and hellfire before he used flashy slash
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You haven't shown a single instance actually of Saitama being hit while he's trying to dodge Garou.
Saitama just didn't dodge Garou's kick in that scene. Nothing has been presented that proves he tried to dodge that kick.
That has what bearing on every other fight that Saitama has been in, exactly?
Unless Saitama allows himself to be hit, yes.
Otherwise you should be arguing that Saitama doesn't have MFTL reactions period.
Saitama was not surprised by Garou, and he was never truly outpaced by Meteroic Burst Boros.
This is where the ridiculousness of using Saitama as a measuring stick comes in. Because we know he's far faster than either of those characters, yet you're falling for the fake hype being delivered of "Do these characters actually stand a chance?" This weird idea of "Saitama intentionally lowered his reaction speed down to FTL levels, and they're faster than him" is a very odd proposal I've never seen before.
I have no idea what you mean by this. He fights with less energy than people use to sleep?
This sounds like a massive assumption on your end. Nothing in the series has told us that.
Why would Saitama be perceiving them at FTL when his reactions are actually far faster than that? How would he be able to lower his perception speed to that point?
It sounds like proposal requires a lot more assumptions than the alternative.
Your proposal is "Saitama always starts off his fights at FTL speeds".
What counter-evidence are you expecting, exactly? You want me to go through all of Saitama's fights in the manga and say "He wasn't moving FTL at this point, or this point"?
The burden of evidence is on you to prove that Saitama fights at consistent FTL speeds. Showing him fighting at FTL speeds against Garou is only proof of that one fight... It doesn't retroactively prove things for the rest of the manga beforehand without further evidence.
How many examples of Saitama at the start of a fight being FTL do you have?
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He dodged quite literally every single attack from Garou, and the very moment he tried to throw a punch of his own he was countered and tagged
there was literally no gap between him dodging Garou and throwing that punch, it’s the exact same scene. Should be fairly obvious what happened there, he was simply outpaced, and the order of events should be clear to most people, the vast majority at least.
And additionally, you’re ignoring the fact that Garou dodged the punch that saitama very much intended to land against him as well.
it’s called scaling and I’m sorry to inform you but we do it all the time. The idea is to show solid evidence that off guard saitama does indeed lower his reaction time, and the Garou fight gives us a good indicator of where that casual saitama scales.
Yes, his reactions are not mftl when he’s not serious, that is what I am saying. He is capable of using more effort to increase his reactions and speed and power, but that’s only after the fight begins, which is the whole point of this.
And as I very clearly proved, saitama was not allowing himself to be hit there, and especially not allowing his punch to be dodged, and yet Garou did both at the exact same time
But I know that the first instance clearly doesn’t prove that to you well enough, so I’m just going to have to add even more to something that shouldn’t even need this much explaining
It is a fact, and I mean it really just is a damn fact that Saitama was actively in the very process of dodging garou’s attacks here and still got tagged. Unlike the first one, you can’t even attempt to argue that he stopped dodging after he had thrown the punch (which Garou still dodged) because here we see saitama very clearly moving at ftl speeds to dodge and then getting tagged by Garou while in the middle of a motion, despite the fact that your version of events would have saitama perceiving Garou as 100 times slower than him, which again, is the equivalent of being caught off guard by someone trying to quick draw you by pulling a cannonball out from behind them and loading it in and shooting you. That just doesn’t make any damn sense. The fact remains that a casual saitama, while making an attempt to dodge, has on MULTIPLE OCCASIONS been outpaced and caught by Garou
It’s simply a fact.
Saitama was very clearly a little surprised by Garou here. He says “ah, sorry you came at me kind of fast” with what is very very obviously a slight expression of surprise on his face
And yes, Boros did outpace saitama, and it is very consistent that he did so as well
he blitzed armored Boros and immediately was fighting equally with released Boros, before being out sped by meteoric burst, which indicates a consistent speed until he landed back on earth after thinking it was almost a real fight, thus using a bit more effort
it’s a frighteningly clean interpretation of events and makes complete sense.
And yes it’s an odd proposal, but I’ve seen odder things like high 7-C platinum sperm
You wouldn’t know anything about that wouldya?
I am saying that you are very much not understanding the extent to which saitama holds back
Even the gap between 9-B and 9-C means that a 9-B can hold back to 5% of their power and leave them crippled for life
The amount of restraint that it would take for saitama to throw a baseline 4-B punch is absolutely insane, and then consider the absolutely ridiculous amount that would take for high 4-C, 5-C, high 6-A, 6-A, and lower
I am 99% sure that no human is even capable of using as little effort as that. That’s the kind of restraint that it would take to perform surgery on a molecule without wobbling it. Just think about that in perspective got a minute and then get back to me. He holds back enough to the point where while a human might accidentally break a spray bottle handle or knock over a glass vase, he would use the same energy to break the ******* sun or knock the moon out of orbit.
So yeah, he basically fights people without being on guard. And even that is an understatement.
Not to mention I’m pretty sure the mftl feat is probably a lowball considering the loss of momentum from Garou slamming into rocks hundreds of times over and over would make the value far lower than the speed at which he was actually punched.
Fortunately, the series doesn’t need to spoonfeed us basic logic to make basic conclusions about basic things. I am quite sure that you wouldn’t be able to tell the difference between a car going 0.01 mph and 0.001 mph off a glance. Yes it’s an assumption, because it’s really that simple.
The word you’re looking for this time is evidence, not assumptions, and I have provided beyond sufficient quantities of evidence. Don’t ask me how he does it, he simply does it, and I proved it.
I feel like finding evidence that directly contradicts my claim would be a little helpful for your case
But the fact you can’t is more than a little helpful for mine.
Well he blitzes almost everyone for one, and the one time he does fight someone ftl like Garou he’s comparable in speed to a casual saitama, and also seeing Geryuganshoop’s almost lightspeed attack as fodder, and very easily dodging flashy flash’s full speed twice
And also he blitzed armored Boros at the very start of their fight.
Score 4 Ziller, and…..a participation trophy for damage.
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Which only means he wasn't dodging at that time.
That doesn't mean he couldn't dodge if he wanted to.
I mean, think about what basic facts of the fight we should be able to agree upon;
1) Saitama is far faster than this version Garou by feats.
2) Saitama is shown to dodge an even faster version of Garou, when he wants to.
Which means Saitama getting tagged by Garou doesn't happen "because he's too slow", but because he's not taking the fight seriously.
That requires the assumption that Saitama attempted to dodge Garou's kick there.
Let's cut the nonsense, shall we? Saitama dodging Garou's attack in Instance A, does not mean he is attempting to dodge every attack. That is the kind of claim that you have to prove. It is not the default assumption here; you're projecting what you think should happen onto the scene.
"Saitama is shown dodging Garou's punches here, therefore he should have been trying to dodge every attack from Garou." No. That's just not how it works. Prove your damn claims.
Your evidence hasn't shown that Saitama intentionally lowers his reaction time through some unexplained method.
You're still assuming that Saitama was attempting to dodge in each of those occasions.
What I'm seeing from the scans you've offered is that when Saitama actually wants to dodge, he is shown to dodge. When Saitama throws a punch at Garou, that is when Garou manages to land a hit back on Saitama.
But just because Garou is hitting Saitama doesn't mean that Saitama attempted to dodge and failed. I don't know why you can't understand this point.
Again, you're projecting your own assumptions on the scene here by assuming that Saitama was outsped by Meteoric Burst Boros, when the far simpler interpretation is that he just allowed himself to be hit.
So what? You've proven that Saitama has superhuman restraint to a ridiculous degree... So why are you questioning that he has even higher levels of restraint than that?
Bear in mind that we already do take account him having an insane amount of restraint. He can throw a mountain-destroying punch at Genos' face yet have such a fine level of control of it that the shockwave doesn't hit Genos at all but hits the cliffs behind him...
So why are you expressing incredulity that Saitama can restrain himself to the point where he allows opponents to tag him and fighters at slower than FTL speeds?
Thanks for admitting it is an additional assumption on your part.
And no shit I wouldn't be able to tell the difference between 0.01 mph and 0.001 mph, but I'm not Saitama or superhuman in the first place.
No, assumptions was the right word Ziller. You're making a lot of assumptions to make this proposal feasible.
An unsupported claim doesn't need counter-evidence given against it.
If I point out any scene where Saitama isn't moving at FTL speed you'll say things like "Saitama was holding back against a human", "That's travel speed, not combat speed", "Saitama was making an exception there, he is FTL at all other times".
Just what kind of evidence are you expecting that could refute "Saitama always starts his fights at FTL"?
Saitama doesn't have to be anywhere near FTL for 99% of this scenes.
Nobody is denying that a casual Saitama can be FTL.
An MFTL character certainly would see a near-lightspeed attack as fodder.
Again. nobody is denying that a casual Saitama can be FTL.
The "At least Supersonic+, possibly Relativistic+" Boros, right... And?
You're being intentionally annoying Ziller. It does not do you any credit.
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Response fails to mention that this was incited in the first place by Garou dodging a punch intended to hit him
also, Garou has intense speed AD at this point, so him being able to land a blow makes sense.
It’s more so that “he was dodging every last one of garou’s punches here, so it’s likely that he was doing the same a millisecond later”
But I have better examples
Saitama being countered, dodged, parried, surprised over and over and over again against his will from attacks that are dimensions below his top reaction time beg to differ
Garou caught saitama in the middle of a dodge there. There’s no need for this tangent that he wasn’t trying to dodge when Garou hits him in the middle of one my guy.
and might I remind you that Garou outsped his punches multiple times. You seem to be ignoring that too, so just a reminder that somehow, despite saitama being able to see any dodge he tried at 1% playback speed, he still manages to miss attacks and get dodged.
It’s simpler, but that doesn’t automatically make it true
For now I’ll discard that part of the argument though since I already have way too much proof as is, and I don’t need to taint it with a bad argument. Just this once I’ll concede.
I am not saying that he can’t allow himself to be hit, now try and understand what my actual argument is this time. Instead of going on an irrelevant tangent.
In instances where casual saitama is trying NOT to be hit, he is still able to be tagged by an ftl character.
I literally never suggested that he doesn’t have the restraint capable of it, I am saying that fighting against his strongest foes so far is the equivalent of being completely off guard. There is little perceivable difference to him between an intense battle and doing nothing at all, from an effort perspective.
Ok so saitama’s allowed to break the rules of how perception should work, but not allowed to lower his reaction speed when he’s off guard because that “breaks” the rules of how reaction works.
My evidence:
Your counterevidence:
Pretty sure assumptions is still the wrong word, at least if you’re talking about me.
Ok so I’m sure you actually have instances that could incite these responses from me in the first place? No? Then just admit you don’t have any counter evidence and we can go from there. Of course if I have no evidence, then I can’t be right, but also I’d like you to acknowledge that you don’t have any contradicting proof, since you’re taking the angle that I lack evidence, not that you can actually prove me wrong (which you still can’t, but I address this in my other sections, so it doesn’t have any bearing on the fact that you lack counter proof)
Yes, I am aware. That was just to establish that he always fights at a speed that non ftl characters are unable to comprehend, that was literally only the start of the sentence that you replied to anyways.
And I am saying that he defaults to ftl, which is the point
when in a neutral or start of battle state he is shown to be much faster than non ftl characters, when actually fighting, he gets very clearly outpaced (evidence jumpscare) by a character who does upscale from ftl.
This is just showing that he starts at ftl by default, hence examples of him ******** on some of the fastest non lightspeed characters, before presenting the instance of an actual ftl character being the first to be a match for his default speed.
Same applies.
Sorry, let me rephrase my metaphor then, since clearly subtle mockery isn’t going to help you change your mind
Essentially, I have a casual saitama upscaling from everyone non ftl and matching someone ftl, while your evidence is 0
I have evidence and you don’t is the thing, so after a certain point there’s only so much you can do to belittle it, but all of this is just going to keep stacking on top of each other until all my “tiny” pieces of evidence support eachother enough to prove my point
A small stack of evidence is infinitely better than no evidence.
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My apologies then, let’s just stick to the pure arguments.
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I’m going to try to compress the key points of the arguments to make them a bit faster to respond to than the previous bibles:
My argument is basically that since we see that saitama can be unintentionally dodged and tagged by attacks from Garou on multiple occasions his casual speed should scale to garou’s ftl. Garou is shown dodging a normal punch, catching a dodge-ready saitama twice, and redirecting him with wsrsf multiple times to the point where is was actually able to slightly annoy saitama.
And my proposal is basically just that casual saitama begins all fights with ftl reactions, and just puts in more effort as fights go on which increases his reaction time. His reaction time being lowered by being casual can be explained due to being off guard given how he’s putting vastly less than .001% of his effort into fighting anyone, but also because it’s fiction and there are other instances where being off guard results in more extreme things like lowered durability, so this is tame in comparison to begin with.
Basically casual saitama = ftl and uses more speed and effort as the fight goes on.
My argument is basically that since we see that saitama can be unintentionally dodged and tagged by attacks from Garou on multiple occasions his casual speed should scale to garou’s ftl. Garou is shown dodging a normal punch, catching a dodge-ready saitama twice, and redirecting him with wsrsf multiple times to the point where is was actually able to slightly annoy saitama.
And my proposal is basically just that casual saitama begins all fights with ftl reactions, and just puts in more effort as fights go on which increases his reaction time. His reaction time being lowered by being casual can be explained due to being off guard given how he’s putting vastly less than .001% of his effort into fighting anyone, but also because it’s fiction and there are other instances where being off guard results in more extreme things like lowered durability, so this is tame in comparison to begin with.
Basically casual saitama = ftl and uses more speed and effort as the fight goes on.
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Focusing on purely the key arguments then.
There are three examples given so let's break them down one-by-one.
Example 1: In the first part of this scene we can see Saitama effortlessly dodging Garou's attacks. At no point during this dodging is Saitama appearing to throw any hits back at Garou. He's just dodging.
Then we see Saitama throw a punch and Garou dodges out of the way. Now, this punch thrown by Saitama we can say is likely FTL in speed, but what you don't seem to understand is that just because Saitama threw a punch at FTL speed, doesn't mean he can't throw one any slower or any faster if he so chooses. In normal scaling logic, we might rely on assumption that "If X character truly intended to attack someone, then they'd probably throw a punch as fast as they could" so you'd normally be right to think "This speed is this character's typical limit".
But Saitama doesn't fight according to our typical standards. Until Genos is killed, Saitama is never fighting Garous seriously.
Which brings me to the final part of the first example; Saitama is struck by Garou's kick and sent rocketing down to the planet's surface. Notice at no point in the pages is there actually an indication that Saitama intended to dodge the attack.
You're using the faulty assumption of "If Saitama was seriously trying to dodge Garou's attacks, then he should have tried to dodge Garou's last kick too." But Saitama isn't being serious. He has no need to dodge Garou's attacks.
We see this in other parts of the fight as well;
1) After Saitama lands on the surface, he allows Garou to strike him on the skull and simply breaks Garou's fist with the hardness of his head.
2) In front of Tareo, Saitama dares Garou to hits him and takes his punch head-on.
So you can't rely on the argument "Saitama dodged in other parts of the fight, so he must have been attempting to dodge all of Garou's strikes." It just doesn't work.
When Saitama wants to dodge Garou's strikes, then he does. When he doesn't want to, he doesn't.
It's that simple.
Example 2: Saitama expresses annoyance that Garou is causing Saitama's punches to miss. We've already established that Saitama is not taking this fight seriously. This does not mean that Saitama's reactions are forcibly limited down to FTL levels... it just means he isn't fighting seriously. This has nothing directly linked to Saitama's reaction speed.
Example 3: An almost perfect repeat of the first example. Saitama is effortlessly dodging Garou's punches and then the two of them throw punches at each other and Garou strikes Saitama. Now, you seem to be operating under the interpretation / assumption that because we were shown Saitama dodging in the first part of the scene, that means Saitama is still attempting to dodge Garou.
This just doesn't work as an interpretation. We're shown that Saitama is doing something different. In the first part of the scene Saitama is dodging without throwing any counter-attacks back at Garou. He is handling Garou's attacks effortlessly. Then Saitama is shown to be punching Garou and that's when Garou hits him.
Either Garou got many, many times faster in a split-second and surpassed Saitama's normal speed... or Saitama just wasn't dodging there. The latter explanation is far more likely when you factor in the fact that Garou needed a power-boost from God and needed to mimic Saitama's movements in order to match Saitama's Consecutive Normal Punches later on.
Fact is that Garou just doesn't scale to Saitama's speed period at this point, and doesn't until later in the fight.
Example 4: Saitama is struck by Garou, while he strikes Garou, during their exchange of Consecutive Normal Punches.
You do realize in this scene that Garou is copying Saitama's movements? As in, they are both throwing the same Consecutive Normal Punches at each other. So why would it be unexpected that both fighters can tag each other when they're throwing the same attacks?
Again, we already know that Saitama isn't seriously trying to dodge Garou because he isn't fighting seriously. (Does the technique's name "Normal Punches" not give it away?) So once more this is a case where it isn't shown that Saitama wants to dodge Garou.
It seems to me that you're making the argument that, "Saitama seriously intended to hit Garou here, yet Garou was able to dodge so therefore Saitama was seriously punching at only FTL speeds" then I think you're making a contradictory argument.
We know Saitama is holding himself back in terms of the speed of his punches. He isn't trying to seriously hit Garou. So this isn't a supporting point for "Saitama intentionally lowers his reaction speed."
How does this prove that his reaction speed was forcibly limited to that level? It seems like an Argument from Incredulity that Saitama would fight so much slower than he actually can, even though Saitama's whole deal is that he never goes all out until he fights seriously.
This does not mean that Saitama will always throw FTL punches.
All of this hinges on the assumption that Saitama actively attempted to dodge in each of those scenes and did not succeed.
There are three examples given so let's break them down one-by-one.
Example 1: In the first part of this scene we can see Saitama effortlessly dodging Garou's attacks. At no point during this dodging is Saitama appearing to throw any hits back at Garou. He's just dodging.
Then we see Saitama throw a punch and Garou dodges out of the way. Now, this punch thrown by Saitama we can say is likely FTL in speed, but what you don't seem to understand is that just because Saitama threw a punch at FTL speed, doesn't mean he can't throw one any slower or any faster if he so chooses. In normal scaling logic, we might rely on assumption that "If X character truly intended to attack someone, then they'd probably throw a punch as fast as they could" so you'd normally be right to think "This speed is this character's typical limit".
But Saitama doesn't fight according to our typical standards. Until Genos is killed, Saitama is never fighting Garous seriously.
Which brings me to the final part of the first example; Saitama is struck by Garou's kick and sent rocketing down to the planet's surface. Notice at no point in the pages is there actually an indication that Saitama intended to dodge the attack.
You're using the faulty assumption of "If Saitama was seriously trying to dodge Garou's attacks, then he should have tried to dodge Garou's last kick too." But Saitama isn't being serious. He has no need to dodge Garou's attacks.
We see this in other parts of the fight as well;
1) After Saitama lands on the surface, he allows Garou to strike him on the skull and simply breaks Garou's fist with the hardness of his head.
2) In front of Tareo, Saitama dares Garou to hits him and takes his punch head-on.
So you can't rely on the argument "Saitama dodged in other parts of the fight, so he must have been attempting to dodge all of Garou's strikes." It just doesn't work.
When Saitama wants to dodge Garou's strikes, then he does. When he doesn't want to, he doesn't.
It's that simple.
Example 2: Saitama expresses annoyance that Garou is causing Saitama's punches to miss. We've already established that Saitama is not taking this fight seriously. This does not mean that Saitama's reactions are forcibly limited down to FTL levels... it just means he isn't fighting seriously. This has nothing directly linked to Saitama's reaction speed.
Example 3: An almost perfect repeat of the first example. Saitama is effortlessly dodging Garou's punches and then the two of them throw punches at each other and Garou strikes Saitama. Now, you seem to be operating under the interpretation / assumption that because we were shown Saitama dodging in the first part of the scene, that means Saitama is still attempting to dodge Garou.
This just doesn't work as an interpretation. We're shown that Saitama is doing something different. In the first part of the scene Saitama is dodging without throwing any counter-attacks back at Garou. He is handling Garou's attacks effortlessly. Then Saitama is shown to be punching Garou and that's when Garou hits him.
Either Garou got many, many times faster in a split-second and surpassed Saitama's normal speed... or Saitama just wasn't dodging there. The latter explanation is far more likely when you factor in the fact that Garou needed a power-boost from God and needed to mimic Saitama's movements in order to match Saitama's Consecutive Normal Punches later on.
Fact is that Garou just doesn't scale to Saitama's speed period at this point, and doesn't until later in the fight.
Example 4: Saitama is struck by Garou, while he strikes Garou, during their exchange of Consecutive Normal Punches.
You do realize in this scene that Garou is copying Saitama's movements? As in, they are both throwing the same Consecutive Normal Punches at each other. So why would it be unexpected that both fighters can tag each other when they're throwing the same attacks?
Again, we already know that Saitama isn't seriously trying to dodge Garou because he isn't fighting seriously. (Does the technique's name "Normal Punches" not give it away?) So once more this is a case where it isn't shown that Saitama wants to dodge Garou.
I'm not sure which point you think this proves.
It seems to me that you're making the argument that, "Saitama seriously intended to hit Garou here, yet Garou was able to dodge so therefore Saitama was seriously punching at only FTL speeds" then I think you're making a contradictory argument.
We know Saitama is holding himself back in terms of the speed of his punches. He isn't trying to seriously hit Garou. So this isn't a supporting point for "Saitama intentionally lowers his reaction speed."
Addressed up above but there is no such thing as a "dodge-ready Saitama". It is shown repeatedly that any time Saitama wants to dodge Garou's attacks, he has done so.
Addressed up above. Yes, Saitama was using a certain level of speed against Garou initially. Garou was able to keep up with him at this speed using his martial arts.
How does this prove that his reaction speed was forcibly limited to that level? It seems like an Argument from Incredulity that Saitama would fight so much slower than he actually can, even though Saitama's whole deal is that he never goes all out until he fights seriously.
"Begins all fights at FTL" is a pretty huge claim considering your arguments are relying on just one fight.
Casual Saitama can throw FTL punches, yes. Saitama can use more speed and effort as the fight goes on, yes.
This does not mean that Saitama will always throw FTL punches.
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That is entirely correct.
Yes, he is capable of throwing slower punches, but this shows that it is in character for him to throw ftl punches. The first thing you might say is that there’s no evidence that any other punches saitama throws were ftl, but there is no evidence they are not ftl given that every punch he ever throws blitzed every non ftl character. Now, I know this would be a case where you ask “how does this prove that those punches are ftl?” to which I answer that it doesn’t prove anything, but the point in bringing it up is that these are all neutral events where there’s no evidence to suggest they weren’t ftl, so they can’t be used as counter evidence. Keeping this in mind, I am using the Garou fight as the instance in which saitama is seemingly struggling (I know you’re contesting this but I’ll get to that momentarily in the later responses) against an ftl character. Which means we have a bunch of neutral instances where it “could be ftl” and one case where he definitely was ftl which we use as the case of it being quantifiable, that’s what it would be scaling to. Also, this does sort of go hand in hand with the AP side of the crt where the first normal punches in fights are consistent which is why that also kind of supports it, so it’s a little challenging to separate both halves of the crt.
He’s not serious, but that doesn’t mean he isn’t trying. Think of if this way:
Opening a door is a really easy task and you are never getting serious when you pull the handle, but you are actually trying to accomplish it regardless of how it takes 0 effort to do. So while someone who opens a door may be casual, that doesn’t mean we can’t use their “door opening power” as scaling. If you see someone who is usually shown to be capable of opening doors easily, and they initially are completely unable to open a door until they use more effort, then it’s very safe to assume that the door was heavier than the others or had a harder handle to pull. In this case, Garou is a door that saitama can beyond effortlessly open, but it’s plausible to say that, even though he isn’t serious, he did in that very instance struggle to hit Garou, which is something that he effortlessly does in other fights. In the same way that people default to the same level of effort they open a door with, saitama defaulted to Garou with the same level of effort he fights everyone with, but he had to pull the handle a bit harder after Garou was able to briefly surpass that level of effort.
So just because Saitama wasn’t full power, doesn’t mean that he wasn’t genuinely aiming to hit Garou, and just because saitama wasn’t full speed, doesn’t mean he wasn’t genuinely attempting to hit Garou either. It’s just that his default speed got outpaced in a few instances.
There is definitely a difference here though. Saitama goes immediately from a dodge into what we agree is an ftl punch that he thought would hit Garou (given that he threw it), which Garou was able to dodge and then counter. This all takes place over the course of 3 panels, it is not just the same fight, but the exact same moment of the fight. We both can agree that there was no reason for saitama to suddenly go from fighting at ftl speed to throwing a subsonic punch at Garou just because why not.
And yes he had no need to dodge garou’s attacks, but chose to do so anyways in what was most likely less than the infamous 13 milliseconds. There was absolutely no reason for saitama to change his mind there even if he could, which is why it’s used as a supporting feat. And yeah, saitama wasn’t serious, but he seriously was trying to beat Garou.
#2 is a different instance in the fight, and unlike my example that was the exact same scene, that is some time later
#1 is also immediately after Garou had shown to ability to tag saitama too, and don’t forget that this is a full power Garou with his AD on blast, meaning that this should be either equal to or even faster than the absolutely insane level of speed amping that he was using against platinum sperm. I mean imagine for a second that you are the world’s greatest and strongest and fastest fighter in the ring boxing a coughing baby (this was the only appropriate power gap I could think of for this example) You expect it to be just as slow as all the babies that came before it, and it is, until after the first slow motion punch it throws it suddenly starts getting like 10 times faster. Now of course you’re still much faster than the baby, but you didn’t expect it to be able to do that at all, and you’re gonna have to go from 1% to 2% of your power
Usually saitama can just get away with blitzing people easily without really paying attention, but Garou is getting faster in a very short amount of time and he’s of course finding himself needing to use more and more effort to adjust to garou. Saitama can of course use more effort and become faster, but Garou landing a few blows in one instance after his AD is shown makes complete sense. Either way, the fact that he dodged saitama is also important regardless of if Saitama wanted to dodge that kick.
No, it’s more so that Garou’s AD lets him get leads on Saitama that his previous level of effort wasn’t able to compensate more and he had to try marginally harder.
But the fact remains that garou, who according to you is being seen in extreme 1/100th speed slow motion by Saitama, was able to make his moves miss (which means Saitama wasn’t allowing them to miss on purpose and he did in fact intend them to connect) heavily supports that casual saitama’s reactions are indeed lowered, which is just a more extreme version of a relaxed human having their reaction time lowered. Going back to the door analogy, when you first touch a doorknob and at first it doesn’t budge, then you’d push a bit harder the next time. In this case, even if Garou was a bit faster than expected (the door was a bit harder to pull) then he would have been going 100 times faster than him and be able to try a bit harder. By the time Garou had reacted to that punch and began throwing his own, a saitama with mftl reaction would have punched him 10 times before he could even know what happened, yet Saitama clearly had the punch that he intended to connect intercepted yet again. Could it be a strech on its own? Maybe, but as you admitted, this exact scenario wasn’t even the first time it had happened in this very fight, and not the last time, so it’s certainly no outlier.
He did this in significantly less than a split second, so yes that is most likely exactly what happened there.
Except here’s the thing, Saitama would have seen that coming from a mile away regardless. Let’s not forget that according to you, the speed at which he is throwing these punches is VASTLY slower than the speed at which he is actually perceiving. And no, he wouldn’t have necessarily dodged, but he could have very easily hit Garou 10 times before Garou managed to outpace him as well
also he only copied saitama one time there, don’t forget that it’s not as though he can just hold the copy indefinitely and continue matching him at the exact same time, that is definitively disproven by the fact that saitama’s AD was faster than the speed at which Garou could spam his copying. So that interpretation just doesn’t work in the slightest.
The punch was intended to land, and if Garou was being perceived 100 times slower than Saitama then it would be easy for him to adjust his punch a LONG time before he would get out of the way. The fact that he threw the punch to begin with means he was trying to hit him, and no matter how you spin it, he did indeed fail to hit him when he was trying to. This is another example of the door opening analogy, something really useful to explain how this casual saitama stuff could be possible.
AD again
Martial arts shouldn’t be able to affect someone who is perceiving you as slow as a human perceives snails. You literally can’t pull a fast one on him because he’d have 100 times as many chances to adjust himself for it if he really was using mftl reactions at the time. It’s not about saitama throwing punches that slow, it’s the fact that he’s not simply able to counter any kind of attempt at a trick attack through sheer virtue of supposedly being 100 times faster in terms of perception.
Really two fights since pre IO cosmic Garou is a thing that exists. But either way, that’s why I made a huge deal of the fact that there are no other instances of people being able to dodge saitama’s attacks or prevent him from dodging or anything. It’s not “he throws random speed punches in every other fight and ftl this one time” it’s “he has blitzed everyone and caught a complete surprise attack from a flashy slash (the move that’s even faster than his normal speed which Gale and Hellfire kept up with)
That’s the thing, he has 0 provable instances of him not being ftl when casual and multiple provable instances of him being ftl when casual.
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this is the longest 9 messages of all time
this is the longest 9 messages of all time
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I'll try to make an extended response to your post when I can, but just focusing on this point for the moment:
Do you have any evidence that Saitama didn't "see that coming from a mile away"? You say "Saitamaa could have very easily hit Garou 10 times"... but what is the problem with that? We already know that Saitama is far faster than Garou and could have hit Garou 10 or 100 times over if he was fighting seriously. So why do you think it is more likely that Saitama was incapable of reacting to Garou, instead of just Saitama choosing not to react to Garou? If Saitama can choose to hold back his AP thousands of times lower than his serious strikes when he's smacking Garou all over the place, then he could choose to let himself be hit by Garou and choose to throw slower punches, right?
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Which is something that I’ve addressed repeatedly though.
For one, if saitama was going to let Garou hit him, there would be no reason to throw the punch in the first place
But more importantly, the fact that he’s actually somewhat annoyed about his attacks being redirected would make absolutely no sense if he was just seeing it in 100x slow motion and just letting it happen. Saitama specifically words it as Garou making his attacks miss, so it’s not just a case of Saitama not doing anything and letting himself be a punching bag
Essentially, Saitama wasn’t letting Garou hit him, because we know that saitama was trying to land blows on Garou to begin with. The idea is that just because Saitama is putting almost none of his power into winning the fight, he is still trying to win the fight.
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I'm currently giving it a breather to let other people have the chance to post. The back and forth of just you and I is a bit dreaining.
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That’s completely understandable, I’m fully willing to give you a few days given the scale of this
unfortunately I haven’t really succeeded in getting more people here so it might be a bit
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To me the OP seems solid enough to apply, and reading the debate, I'm leaning towards agreeing with Ziller, but it would be nice if more people could debate it.
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It could be important in the future though.
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