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COLLIDING FISTS OF KI! Son Goku vs Akuma

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Of course it can be dodged or blocked. No one is arguing that it can't. @FTW. The thing comes from if it hits.

@Miles. You're being alarmingly rude for a new user.

Anyway, I mean to do =/= rather than /. So that was my fault. But you cannot claim bias in the slightest. Especially considering how you believe Goku, a fighter about honor, will use things he never used before to win, along with the fact it's not what Goku would do.

Next, you said that I'm going agains SFV, official statements, and AR. First thing, game mechanics, clearly. Not to mention that then, it's shown as teleport punches, making it even harder to dodge/block. Second thing is blatantly false. Official statements prove my point, stating "soul" a bunch of times, and saying it can only be fully countered by the PoN. Heck, Gouken attempted to counter the attack, and look what happened. Final thing, you completely ignored all of my above analogies.

Finally, attacks can affect more than one part of the self. Look at Undertale.
 
well in SFV while it shows physical hits they are not any ordinary hits as if you get hit by those you're soul will be shredded so blocking won't do Goku any good if he blocks. Akuma grabs his opponents then hits them with a flurry of hits that are have soul destroying properties. While he doesn't do it normally he does that via the raging demon
 
Miles Romero12 said:
It will because Asura did just that an negated it.

Simple logic.
Click to expand...
>simple logic

ok didn't we establish that it's more to game mechanics or the fact Asura can do his own version of the demon in a non-canon which shows that Asura has his own kanji and butted all the hits matching Ryu blow for blow while him surviving even if you miss the commands he lives…
 
TISSG7Redgrave said:
Miles Romero12 said:
It will because Asura did just that an negated it.

Simple logic.
Click to expand...
>simple logic
ok didn't we establish that it's more to game mechanics or the fact Asura can do his own version of the demon in a non-canon which shows that Asura has his own kanji and butted all the hits matching Ryu blow for blow while him surviving even if you miss the commands he lives…
Click to expand...
It really is simple logic.

There is no evidence of this "own version of the raging demon" being used ever since.

Even if it was, its virtually insignificant to your argument, since he didnt use it against Oni, he legit punched out of the raging demon and you cant disprove that, ill post the fight as many times as necessary.


If Asura doesnt have Soul resistance, and all you need to do to block the raging demon is dodge or counter blows, just as the game has proven, then there is nothing here to discuss more than how we are putting this in Goku´s victories.
 
I... will actually go with Goku, on this one.

Akuma's two big breadwinners, here: his BFR and his Shun Goku Satsu: aren't likely to actually win him the fight, here.

He wouldn't use his BFR, for starters. He used it on Ryu, yeah, but to get him out of the way, as the true opponent he wished to face was Asura. Remember that Akuma is, at his core, a warrior above all, and that he seeks out the worthiest martial artists he can find, and so there would be no reason for him to use it on someone like Goku, who fits the bill to a tee.

As for his Shun Goku Satsu... well, completely ignoring the possibility of it being blocked, and the debate over whether or not Goku can resist it, and the fact that it's not even that impressive a display of soul hax (especially not for his power level)... can it not just be dodged? Goku's not a complete dumbass, he's not going to stand around and let an opponent hit him in the face with their strongest move. Given how much more maneuverable he is than Akuma, what with his instant transmission and such, the odds of it being the cause of Goku's death go down even further.

So, now that it's basically just a martial arts fight, I feel it necessary to emphasize that, at least in my experience, Goku doesn't get nearly enough credit for his versatility. Yeah, his most well-known attacks are fairly run-of-the-mill, these days, but that's not considering that he has invisible blast attacks, blinding attacks, that he can mix his teleports into his combos, that he can basically pull an Asura the Destructor and get temporary extra arms with Hassku-ken.

Honestly, I'd argue he's even a more skilled martial artist, or at least equal. Akuma only ever perfected one school of combat: meanwhile, Goku has had time to at least dabble in a number of other styles, on top of perfecting his own martial arts style. Crazy Fist, in particular, seems like it would work well against an easy-to-anger berserker type like Akuma.

And remember, Goku starts in base. He can still progress upwards from there. Akuma's ~half a supernova value may or may not be higher or lower than Goku to start with, but, as the battle progresses, and Goku progressively gets closer and closer to that Large Star+ value, he'll find it harder and harder to keep pace.

Hell, even his lightning resistance manages to come into play, for once, seeing as Oni's ki attacks are all lightning elemental now.

I'm not saying it would be easy, but I'm thinking Goku takes this one.
 
Miles Romero12 said:
If Asura doesnt have Soul resistance, and all you need to do to block the raging demon is dodge or counter blows, just as the game has proven, then there is nothing here to discuss more than how we are putting this in Goku´s victories.
Click to expand...
Sure ,just like Gouken "blocked" the blows of the Raging Demon and ended up dead for years anyway, despite being clearly more skilled than Akuma at the time. Right.
 
didn't i just said that while in SFV the raging demon was shown to be physical hits the essence is that each hit was ripping and destroying you're soul so like i said you have to dodge it. Soul resistance is the only way to do it which i don't think Goku has
 
ThePerpetual said:
Akuma's two big breadwinners, here: his BFR and his Shun Goku Satsu: aren't likely to actually win him the fight, here.
Click to expand...
BFR isn't allowed anyway.

ThePerpetual said:
Given how much more maneuverable he is than Akuma, what with his instant transmission and such, the odds of it being the cause of Goku's death go down even further.
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Not really true. Oni is also pretty maneuverable, he can redirect his positioning with Hadokens and use confusing techniques (Rakan Dantojin) to blind side the opponent. Also he has fought other opponent's with teleports before (Bison) and that didn't give him much trouble.

ThePerpetual said:
Honestly, I'd argue he's even a more skilled martial artist, or at least equal. Akuma only ever perfected one school of combat: meanwhile, Goku has had time to at least dabble in a number of other styles, on top of perfecting his own martial arts style. Crazy Fist, in particular, seems like it would work well against an easy-to-anger berserker type like Akuma.
Click to expand...
Akuma has defetead a lot of fighters with very different fighting styles in his resume, despite having only "one style". And also, Crazy Fist? Really? You think jumping around and barking like a dog will be effective on Oni? Also, every villain in DBZ was prone to rage fits, I didn't see Goku use Crazy Fist on them. He used it once against Roshi when he was a kid, never again.

ThePerpetual said:
Hell, even his lightning resistance manages to come into play, for once, seeing as Oni's ki attacks are all lightning elemental now.
Click to expand...
That's a non-factor to be honest. Only one of the variations of his Hadokens is electrical-based, he can also dish them out without it. In fact, his Ultra doesn't have electricity in it at all.
 
Hmm, should I go with the legendary warrior that defeated frieza, while mastering the Legendary form itself? Or, Should I go with someone that has Centruies of experience over goku? Well, to be fair, Frieza was MILLIONS of years ahead of goku in terms of combat, and he still lost. Hell, you could even say the same with beerus, except...he still won..but...goku..is catching up...ehehe.

Just because one has more experience in combat, does not mean "Oh, they're stronger". Nada, Superman beat guys that were much older, the peeps in WOW have, and the DBZ guys have.

But, if we are to look at the facts, we MIGHT confirm that goku MAY lose, because of him losing his guard, but..that's about it. And Most of akuma's feats that are shown, have mostly been shown in dragon-ball...
 
Preds43 said:
Hmm, should I go with the legendary warrior that defeated frieza, while mastering the Legendary form itself?
Click to expand...
Titles and such mean nothing. Akuma has been called the Master of the Fist, Destroyer of the Heaven, a God and everything in between. Those mean absolutely nothing and don't help him whatsoever in the fight.

Preds43 said:
Well, to be fair, Frieza was MILLIONS of years ahead of goku in terms of combat, and he still lost. Hell, you could even say the same with beerus, except...he still won..but...goku..is catching up...ehehe.
Click to expand...
Millions of years ahead? Literally what? Frieza is not only 80 years old at best, but he hasn't had a single day of training in his life before attaining his Golden Form. Goku has never fought against someone with this much of an experience gap in battle and came out victorious. Not saying Goku is not skilled, just he's at a pretty considerable disadvantage in this category.

Preds43 said:
Just because one has more experience in combat, does not mean "Oh, they're stronger".
Click to expand...
Actually that's a pretty fair assumption to make. If two people are around the same power level, the most versatile and experienced one is at a big advantage.
 
Scarlet. You are just wanking.

You argument that ALL of Goku's attacks or forms to take out Oni are "Out of character" yet you ignore that Goku went for the kill with perfect cell.

He didnt know he vould regenerate, you know.

With the superior AT SSJ Goku can EASLY blow Oni's head off with a Inta kamehameha.
 
Miles Romero12 said:
He didnt know he vould regenerate, you know.
Click to expand...
Cell has shown that ability before to Piccolo. And has demonstrated he could do the Kameha several times and the Solar Flare. It's not rocket science to deduce that he could also regenerate.

And it's not my fault people bring these kinds of arguments to the table. If Crazy Fist was a good idea against opponent's that are easy to anger, why didn't Goku use it ever again?

The other guy said Freeza was MILLIONS of years in ahead of Goku in combat. Really?

And I'd appreciate it if you tone down the hostility. I'm bringing new arguments here and I get the same responses all the time. Insta Kameha this, InstaKameha that.

As someone above said, a theoretical battle is about what's more likely to happen.
 
AnonymouXOtakuX said:
i changed my vote
Click to expand...
Alright my bad.

@PTSOXMONKEY99

I think you should check the votes again, you have been counting twice for both sides. I took a look at the thread from the beginning and here's what I got:

Akuma (8 Votes)-> IronKirby, Huesito88, TheRealCalHoward, Bre8k, Cropfist, AustrianManMeat, ScarletFirefly, TISSG7Redgrave

Goku (8 Votes)-> Yojimbo1989(never made his vote clear however), Miles Romero12, Xantospoc22, EnoYaka, Gokuiscool144, FTW395, ThePerpetual, AnonymouXOtakuX
 
I agree with Akuma as well, though given how terrible this thread has gotten, I honestly don't care what result is decided upon of it this just gets closed.
 
Lol I meant I agree with you and the others voting for Akuma.
 
I'm really sorry, but can someone help confirm/recount the votes? I'm doing this from my phone right now and I'm busy at the moment. I'd really appreciate it.
 
Right so since I never made my point clear on this I'm going to lay all the cards on the table and say that Goku takes this with extremely high difficulty for the following reasons. OK breathe...

First with regards to physical stats they are incredibly similar, I would say far too similar in order to make a huge difference. If this were speed unequalized then Goku would have a much easier time. However, with speed equalized it becomes a whole different game. I would say it's possible that Akuma could even surpass Goku in terms of brute strength. But even if Akuma does surpass Goku in terms of strength at full power that might not end up mattering for the following reasons.

Let's now look at the key reason behind the outcome of this fight, the characterization of both. Both combatants often hold themselves back in order to test their opponents, meaning that both will be holding back initially. In spite of this their movements and physical strikes will likely remain the same which feeds directly into Goku's main strength: his adaptability. Goku is well known for being able to read an opponent's fighting style and countering accordingly. Akuma's attacks will most certainly become more powerful as time goes but mostly all of them will remain the same, just with electricity added. So given that this fight will be a drawn out one due to the personalities of the two combatants it's only going to inevitably lead to Goku gaining the advantage.

But what about their abilities? With regards to the Raging Demon I mentioned this before originally but the chances of it being able to affect Goku are somewhat low. Mainly due to the fact that the effectiveness of the soul manipulation of Akuma's Satsui no Hado depends on the negative emotions contained within the person it hits. Goku however is pure-hearted which has been emphasised multiple times throughout the Dragon Ball series perhaps non more so than this one part here.

http://********.me/manga/dragon_ball/v09/c104/6.html

http://********.me/manga/dragon_ball/v09/c104/10.html

So Goku doesn't have any emotions that can truly be classed as negative. Usually the SSJ form would work against Goku in this case since it amplifies rage, which is an emotion that specifically is targeted by the Raging Demon. But the full power SSJ is an exception to the rule since it specifically allows one to retain control of their emotions, meaning that Goku is exactly the same personality wise as in base form. Now quite a few people have tried to claim that Goku is only pure by DBZ standards, however everything that people have tried to claim as an impurity doesn't seem like it would apply to the Satsui no Hado, he eats food but that's because he has to eat, he might enjoy fighting and seeking out a challenge but again that doesn't qualify as a negative emotion. Remember the raging demon specifically targets the evil and sins that a person has committed throughout their life. There are a multitude of other reasons why the Raging Demon wouldn't effect Goku, such as not outright killing Asura, who the embodiment of rage and makes the SSJ transformation seem like a model of restraint (never mind that even that rage is absent here) but I think Perpetual summed things up better.

Another one of Goku's abilities that needs to be mentioned is his ability to sense ki. Since Akuma is a martial artist specifically trained in the use of ki that means that Goku can easily sense Akuma's power level which would also enable Goku to decide which is the best approach to deal with Akuma. Furthermore, Akuma doesn't have the ability to sense ki, which would give Goku an advantage if he decided to launch any sneak attacks, since Goku guessed that Frieza couldn't sense ki he'd likely be able to do the same against Akuma.

As for the teleportation of both combatants, I would say between the two Goku's is superior to Akuma's due to the fact that instant transmission has greater range than Akuma's and also due to the fact that Goku has come up with more creative ways of using it in combat, from the instant kamehameha to spamming like in Battle of Gods.

As for experience in combat, Akuma might be more experienced due to having fought for hundreds of years, but Goku has gone up against individuals with hundreds to millions of years worth of experience and has still managed to come out on top in most cases.

Finally, what about Akuma's stamina? Well this ties back into Goku's ability to sense ki. In an actual combat situation, in the event where Akuma's stamina does come into play it would lead back into what was said earlier, about Goku's ability to sense ki. He'd be able to see that Akuma's stamina was not dropping and would resort to other methods apart from a straight out brawl. But what could Goku do to defeat Akuma? What could he use in the event that Akuma's strength and stamina does outclass Goku's? Well now we move onto the last point in Goku's corner: the Spirit bomb. In the event that things get too tough for Goku he could easily set up the spirit bomb. Just like he did with Great Ape Vegeta, use a solar flare to blind Akuma and either gather distance either by flying to a hidden location or using the Instant Transmission. Remember crucially that Akuma can't sense ki, meaning that it would be easy for Goku to set up the bomb. The cherry on top of all this is the nature of the Satsui no Hado itself, a dark and malevolent energy, the type that the spirit bomb is effective against.

All in all I say Goku wins with immensely high difficulty
 
I find Akuma more prominent to win the battle.

Goku's major flaw is his stamina. Akuma outclass him beyond what Goku can take.
 
Sensing Ki doesn't mean you can sense stamina. When Goku transformed in SSJ3 he had a massive Ki but his stamina was severely impacted.
 
ScarletFirefly said:
Sensing Ki doesn't mean you can sense stamina. When Goku transformed in SSJ3 he had a massive Ki but his stamina was severely impacted.
Click to expand...
Well it actually does, the ki of a person who's out of stamina is considerably lower than the ki of a person who just started a fight.
 
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