Chrono verse Major Revisions - Part I: Low 1-C Cosmology

[PrinceofPein]

I smell BS, because some verses like KH because 6D because of a similar thing iirc.

And isn't Temporal Dimension the reason why Low 2-C is different than 3-A?

KH have 6D cause of an extra temporal dimension, but looking at this reply, i feel like you read nothing I said at all.
read what I said again, an extra time time dimension just means +1D, but that does not make time a transcendent dimension, time is 1D and always has been, an extra time dimension just means extra 1D.
And yes it is low 2C, cause 3D + 1D(time) makes 4D, not because 1D time is transcedent to 3D space, rather it is the two combined that is transcendent.

I fail to see how. It's affecting a Low 1-C place from a place completely beyond it. The darkness it's not something within a baseline Low 1-C place, it cannot be within the same range lol.

You literally said you do not know if it is bigger than the multiverse, but you know it exists outside the multiverse, hence the inter-dimensional range.
As in, two different spaces/dimension, and you have a range that can reach outside your own into another, hence interdimensional range.
Let's say the darkness is the size of the multiverse, adding two 5D structure together will not give you 6D, so why will the ability to affect two 5D structure give you 6D range?

 

[StrymULTRA]

KH have 6D cause of an extra temporal dimension, but looking at this reply, i feel like you read nothing I said at all.
read what I said again, an extra time time dimension just means +1D, but that does not make time a transcendent dimension, time is 1D and always has been, an extra time dimension just means extra 1D.
And yes it is low 2C, cause 3D + 1D(time) makes 4D, not because 1D time is transcedent to 3D space, rather it is the two combined that is transcendent.

But the FAQ page says that Temporal Dimensions are always transcendent though.

You literally said you do not know if it is bigger than the multiverse, but you know it exists outside the multiverse, hence the inter-dimensional range.
As in, two different spaces/dimension, and you have a range that can reach outside your own into another, hence interdimensional range.
Let's say the darkness is the size of the multiverse, adding two 5D structure together will not give you 6D, so why will the ability to affect two 5D structure give you 6D range?

I said above baseline 5D, not that it's 6D lol.

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

I don't see what you're trying to say, Pain. The FAQ clearly said that multiple temporal dimensions = higher D. Since it records the other temporal dimension in infinite snapshots. That's tier 1.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I don't see what you're trying to say, Pain. The FAQ clearly said that multiple temporal dimensions = higher D. Since it records the other temporal dimension in infinite snapshots. That's tier 1.

He does not deny it being Higher D. He denies it being transcendent lol.

 

[PrinceofPein]

But the FAQ page says that Temporal Dimensions are always transcendent though.

no it does not, it just says they are +1D. Time is literally 1D, by itself it is not transcendent of anything.
And i will like you to quote where the FAQ said time is transcendent.

I said above baseline 5D, not that it's 6D lol.

misread it, that is fine

I don't see what you're trying to say, Pain. The FAQ clearly said that multiple temporal dimensions = higher D. Since it records the other temporal dimension in infinite snapshots. That's tier 1.

And like Strym already said, I never said they do not add another dimension, I am saying that time on its own is not transcendent.

 

[StrymULTRA]

no it does not, it just says they are +1D. Time is literally 1D, by itself it is not transcendent of anything.
And i will like you to quote where the FAQ said time is transcendent.

The relationship between the spatial dimensions of a universe and the additional temporal dimension(s) may be visualized as something akin to the frames of a movie placed side-by-side. Basically, the time-like direction may be thought of as a line comprised of uncountably infinite points, each of which is a static "snapshot" of the whole universe at any given moment, with the set of all such events comprising the totality of spacetime.

This structure can then be generalized to any amounts of dimensions, and is also the reason destroying a spacetime continuum is a greater feat than destroying only the contents of the physical universe (Low 2-C, rather than 3-A or High 3-A). So, for example, a spacetime continuum comprising two temporal dimensions (Instead of just one) would have an additional time direction whose "snapshots" correspond to the whole of a 4-dimensional spacetime, and so on and so forth.

Aka it's literally saying that temporal dimensions do qualify as for each temporal dimension, the previous ones get repeated an uncountably infinite amount of times like snapshots, and in case of two temporal dimensions, the 3+1D spacetime gets repated an uncountable infinite amount of times like a Low 2-C structure repeats that much the 3D space of the universe.

misread it, that is fine

K.

 

[PrinceofPein]

The relationship between the spatial dimensions of a universe and the additional temporal dimension(s) may be visualized as something akin to the frames of a movie placed side-by-side. Basically, the time-like direction may be thought of as a line comprised of uncountably infinite points, each of which is a static "snapshot" of the whole universe at any given moment, with the set of all such events comprising the totality of spacetime.

This structure can then be generalized to any amounts of dimensions, and is also the reason destroying a spacetime continuum is a greater feat than destroying only the contents of the physical universe (Low 2-C, rather than 3-A or High 3-A). So, for example, a spacetime continuum comprising two temporal dimensions (Instead of just one) would have an additional time direction whose "snapshots" correspond to the whole of a 4-dimensional spacetime, and so on and so forth.

Aka it's literally saying that temporal dimensions do qualify as for each temporal dimension, the previous ones get repeated an uncountably infinite amount of times like snapshots, and in case of two temporal dimensions, the 3+1D spacetime gets repated an uncountable infinite amount of times like a Low 2-C structure repeats that much the 3D space of the universe.

K.

And which part of this says time is transcendent, or you do not understand it?
It literally says +1D
The totality of both is what is transcendent and not time like I said

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

Agree with 5D, disagree with 6D.
This is just like Seinarukana bruh.
BDE type 2 should suffice, not 6D.

 

[ThanatosX]

I smell BS, because some verses like KH because 6D because of a similar thing iirc.

Since the Kingdom Hearts 6-D revision is the CRT that uses time axis with which I agreed, I want to specify why that was agreed upon without many doubts while there is some skepticism with this one.
In the KH cosmology, the Ocean Between is an infinite space that contains multiple 4-D structure which are infinitesimal in comparison to it, making the Ocean Between a 5-D space. Basically the same as Zurvan, to put it simply.
However, in KH case, there was evidence that the Ocean Between itself had a time axis, adding an additional temporal dimension to the 5-D space. So, considering that the Ocean Between dwarfs 4-D structures, the addictional time axis of the Ocean Between was by nature higher than the time axis of the singular worlds, making it 6-D (4-D + 1 higher spatial dimension + 1 higher temporal dimension).
In this, there would be two temporal dimensions in the same spatial dimensions, creating many doubts if they can be considered as separate when determining the dimensionality of Zurvan. The skepticism of Pain is understandable, and I personally agree with him despite staying generally neutral.
This is the first case that I see something like this, and it all comes down to how the standards are applied with something like this.

 

[StrymULTRA]

BDE type 2 should suffice, not 6D.

Huh? Mind explain how?

Since the Kingdom Hearts 6-D revision is the CRT that uses time axis with which I agreed, I want to specify why that was agreed upon without many doubts while there is some skepticism with this one.
In the KH cosmology, the Ocean Between is an infinite space that contains multiple 4-D structure which are infinitesimal in comparison to it, making the Ocean Between a 5-D space. Basically the same as Zurvan, to put it simply.
However, in KH case, there was evidence that the Ocean Between itself had a time axis, adding an additional temporal dimension to the 5-D space. So, considering that the Ocean Between dwarfs 4-D structures, the addictional time axis of the Ocean Between was by nature higher than the time axis of the singular worlds, making it 6-D (4-D + 1 higher spatial dimension + 1 higher temporal dimension).
In this, there would be two temporal dimensions in the same spatial dimensions, creating many doubts if they can be considered as separate when determining the dimensionality of Zurvan. The skepticism of Pain is understandable, and I personally agree with him despite staying generally neutral.
This is the first case that I see something like this, and it all comes down to how the standards are applied with something like this.

So you're telling me that Zurvan should have a Time Dimension on its own unlike the multiverse it hosts?

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

He does not deny it being Higher D. He denies it being transcendent lol.

Read the last part, it's obvious I'm referring to transcendence.

Thanatos reply

Zurvan should have it's own time dimension, considering that's where time itself began, where time itself is a blur and where you can view all of time. It's something transcendence.

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

Huh? Mind explain how?

The Black Omen in the localized version is said to transcend space and time, but in the Japanese, it's said that it travels through the temporal dimensions. There is another statement about said Temporal Dimensions, aka when Lavos started to distort the temporal axes. This pretty much can imply that the multiverse that is contained in Zurvan is not merely 3+1D, but 5D in itself as it would be 3+2D, aka Low 1-C, thus making Zurvan 6D. Whenever this is accepted as legit or not, I do not really know, but at very least it should be included as a likely, given that there are multiple mentions of said temporal dimensions, so I can think that is literal.

The Darkness Beyond Time requires to go beyond space and time to access it, as it exists beyond the borders of time and lacks a beginning or an end, with everything being reduced to nothing there.

I didn't see anything resembling 2D times here...
Transcending space and time in totality is not making you 6D, even if we accept the 5D multiverse it is just BDE type 2. Not 6D since it lacks higher structure than 5D.
I will change my mind if Spirit of Eternity Sword 6D too :V by this argument

 

[StrymULTRA]

I didn't see anything resembling 2D times here...
Transcending space and time in totality is not making you 6D, even if we accept the 5D multiverse it is just BDE type 2. Not 6D since it lacks higher structure than 5D.
I will change my mind if Spirit of Eternity Sword 6D too :V by this argument

No I mean how that makes it BDE Type 2.

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

I didn't see anything resembling 2D times here...

With all respect. What are you trying to say? DBT is 6D?

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

No I mean how that makes it BDE Type 2.

Because it transcends space and times bruh, that blatant BDE.

With all respect. What are you trying to say? DBT is 6D?

I don't see proof where there are two temporal dimensions.
@Celestial_Pegasus used an argument like this for Seinarukana but rejected in this thread https://vsbattles.com/threads/spirit-of-the-eternity-sword-the-return-of-tier-1.148658/
If you want 6D to pass, well...
Push my verse to 6D

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

Eternity Sword has different context as far as I'm aware. Unless you can proof that it has something similar to Chronoverse that said there are multiple temporal dimensions then that's not it.

Make a CRT for it if you want, I don't have a lot to say for that.

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

Eternity Sword has different context as far as I'm aware. Unless you can proof that it has something similar to Chronoverse that said there are multiple temporal dimensions then that's not it.

Make a CRT for it if you want, I don't have a lot to say for that.

"Third, The Sephirot being the time axis for the entire Time Tree would mean it has an additional temporal dimension? Which following off the other stuff it's either going to Low 1-C (5-D or 6-D). This might not be enough evidence for those ratings, who knows.

Finally, The Root, not sure what it would be, it's endless and the root of everything, but idk if that proves a qualitative superiority, it's certainly above everything else though."
Similar but rejected.
So I reject this 6D CRT.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Because it transcends space and times bruh, that blatant BDE.

Type 2: Characters whose nature is defined by lacking spatiotemporal features and being superior to them in nature. These characters aren't necessarily superior to spacetime on every level, but just within the scope which they are shown. Due to transcending this spacetime they are immune to Spatial Manipulation and Time Manipulation of it. They furthermore inherit any benefits of Type 1.

Well shit.

I don't see proof where there are two temporal dimensions.
@Celestial_Pegasus used an argument like this for Seinarukana but rejected in this thread https://vsbattles.com/threads/spirit-of-the-eternity-sword-the-return-of-tier-1.148658/
If you want 6D to pass, well...
Push my verse to 6D

Call @Everything12 then.

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

Call @Everything12 then.

Will do.

 

[ThanatosX]

So you're telling me that Zurvan should have a Time Dimension on its own unlike the multiverse it hosts?

To put it simply, yes. If there is solid evidence of Zurvan having a time axis of his own, than that would technically put it in the 6-D tier, if there aren't notable anti-feats or such of course.

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

To put it simply, yes. If there is solid evidence of Zurvan having a time axis of his own, than that would technically put it in the 6-D tier, if there aren't notable anti-feats or such of course.

Bruh, in the past Seinarukana 6D is still rejected even if using this argument.

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

To put it simply, yes. If there is solid evidence of Zurvan having a time axis of his own, than that would technically put it in the 6-D tier, if there aren't notable anti-feats or such of course.

There should be one.

Zurvan is a place where you can view all of time, where time itself began and end, and where time itself a blur.

This should be evidence that Zurvan posses another temporal dimension therefore making the verse 6D. The scans itself can be found in this CRT I made that got replaced without my consent, read the part where I talk about Zurvan (Sea of Dreams).

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

Zurvan is a place where you can view all of time, where time itself began and end, and where time itself a blur.

Seinarukana does this with the root itself.
Yet it still 5D.
And no, that shit should be 4D based on BDE type 2 or just 5D if a larger structure exists (Zurvan itself is 5D).

 

[StrymULTRA]

Just saying that Ultima will come here soon.

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

I was expecting a back up, not a revival .

 

[StrymULTRA]

I was expecting a back up, not a revival .

More like getting the big guns.

 

[Vietthai96]

I disagree with everything because there is still no sequel

Anyway I'm fine with 5-D thing, i'm still not sure about 6-D via statement about multiple Temporal Dimensions, but i can see a Possibly rating for it here

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

5-D seems alright, neutral on 6-D.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Bump

 

[PrinceofPein]

Just saying that Ultima will come here soon.

I will wait to hear what dumb shit he thinks I said.

 

[Antvasima]

What Medeus and Maverick have accepted here can probably be applied.

 

[StrymULTRA]

What Medeus and Maverick have accepted here can probably be applied.

We're waiting @Ultima_Reality though, given he said he's gonna be here.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. No problem.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Okay. No problem.

Given that Ultima is taking too much time, can I apply the "5D, possibly 6D" thing please?

 

[Bobsican]

Only a single mod directly agreed with "possibly 6-D", which feels a bit lacking as we're dealing with tier 1, just 5-D should apply for now TBH, even I don't feel too confident on 6-D.

And Ultima got covid, please give him some time.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Only a single mod directly agreed with "possibly 6-D", which feels a bit lacking as we're dealing with tier 1, just 5-D should apply for now TBH, even I don't feel too confident on 6-D.

And Ultima got covid, please give him some time.

Waiting for a whole month is bad tho

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Eh, better late than never.

The Darkness Beyond Time being Low 1-C is fine to me. What with it being the infinite void beyond the multiverse to which discarded timelines are ejected, and blah blah blah. You can actually see some of those timelines floating around as little bubbles inside of it, as shown in the gallery here, so I guess that helps too. Same applies to Zurvan, which the DBT receives scaling from, given the description of one of the Dream Devourer's attacks.

As for the bit with multiple temporal dimensions: I'm fine with it if that's the translation we end up deeming valid. Belthasar's Nu mentioning temporal "axes" is nice supporting evidence as well, but I'd check that more closely, too, seeing as it got translated into the singular in the localizations: "The time axis is out of order."

They do not work as transcendent to each other, they are simply different directions of time, not some sort of higher D,
As an example, 1D and 1D are not superior to each other, but bring them together you have 2D.
Same here, each time dimension are 1D, but together they are 2D, not that one of them is transcendent of the other

This is an extremely vapid argument because no one is really arguing that 6-D would be off of transcending a single, lone dimension, but off of transcending a multiverse that is 5-D by virtue of having 3 spatial dimensions + 2 temporal. At the very best this argument is just nitpicking what Strym said when he said "temporal dimensions are automatically qualitatively superior on the wiki."

And even humoring the logic here, the point itself doesn't really hold any water. The basic construction of a space with n dimensions is a Cartesian Product, A x B, which is basically just taking all of B and attaching a copy of it to each point of A (As in this table, which you can find on Wikipedia). In the case of a space with 3 spatial dimensions and 1 temporal, this would be R x R³, which means attaching a copy of R³ to each point of R. This is to say that the time dimension is the direction along which infinite instances of the universe are lined up. If you remove this direction, you eliminate all those instances, save for one.

Same thing applies to a setting with higher temporal dimensions. Only in place of R x R³ it would be R x R⁴. So, a copy of R⁴ (4-dimensional space) attached to every point of another line. Removing this additional line would, in fact, be removing all these copies of R⁴, save for one, just as in the case above.

 

[Mr.Cinos15]

Eh, better late than never.

The Darkness Beyond Time being Low 1-C is fine to me. What with it being the infinite void beyond the multiverse to which discarded timelines are ejected, and blah blah blah. You can actually see some of those timelines floating around as little bubbles inside of it, as shown in the gallery here, so I guess that helps too. Same applies to Zurvan, which the DBT receives scaling from, given the description of one of the Dream Devourer's attacks.

As for the bit with multiple temporal dimensions: I'm fine with it if that's the translation we end up deeming valid. Belthasar's Nu mentioning temporal "axes" is nice supporting evidence as well, but I'd check that more closely, too, seeing as it got translated into the singular in the localizations: "The time axis is out of order."


This is an extremely vapid argument because no one is really arguing that 6-D would be off of transcending a single, lone dimension, but off of transcending a multiverse that is 5-D by virtue of having 3 spatial dimensions + 2 temporal. At the very best this argument is just nitpicking what Strym said when he said "temporal dimensions are automatically qualitatively superior on the wiki."

And even humoring the logic here, the point itself doesn't really hold any water. The basic construction of a space with n dimensions is a Cartesian Product, A x B, which is basically just taking all of B and attaching a copy of it to each point of A (As in this table, which you can find on Wikipedia). In the case of a space with 3 spatial dimensions and 1 temporal, this would be R x R³, which means attaching a copy of R³ to each point of R. This is to say that the time dimension is the direction along which infinite instances of the universe are lined up. If you remove this direction, you eliminate all those instances, save for one.

Same thing applies to a setting with higher temporal dimensions. Only in place of R x R³ it would be R x R⁴. So, a copy of R⁴ (4-dimensional space) attached to every point of another line. Removing this additional line would, in fact, be removing all these copies of R⁴, save for one, just as in the case above.

Just asking from curiosity since this kind of stuff interests me.

So is R temporal dimensions and R^3 spatial dimensions? And if so, would multiple temporal dimensions end up being R x R x R^3, R^2 x R^3, or would it still end up being R x R^4?

 

[StrymULTRA]

Just asking from curiosity since this kind of stuff interests me.

So is R temporal dimensions and R^3 spatial dimensions? And if so, would multiple temporal dimensions end up being R x R x R^3, R^2 x R^3, or would it still end up being R x R^4?

I think the simpliest way is just R^2 x R^3, with former being temporal and latter spatial.

 

[PrinceofPein]

This is an extremely vapid argument because no one is really arguing that 6-D would be off of transcending a single, lone dimension, but off of transcending a multiverse that is 5-D by virtue of having 3 spatial dimensions + 2 temporal. At the very best this argument is just nitpicking what Strym said when he said "temporal dimensions are automatically qualitatively superior on the wiki."

And even humoring the logic here, the point itself doesn't really hold any water. The basic construction of a space with n dimensions is a Cartesian Product, A x B, which is basically just taking all of B and attaching a copy of it to each point of A (As in this table, which you can find on Wikipedia). In the case of a space with 3 spatial dimensions and 1 temporal, this would be R x R³, which means attaching a copy of R³ to each point of R. This is to say that the time dimension is the direction along which infinite instances of the universe are lined up. If you remove this direction, you eliminate all those instances, save for one.

Same thing applies to a setting with higher temporal dimensions. Only in place of R x R³ it would be R x R⁴. So, a copy of R⁴ (4-dimensional space) attached to every point of another line. Removing this additional line would, in fact, be removing all these copies of R⁴, save for one, just as in the case above.

So what I am getting from this is that I did not say anything stupid like you claimed and I was right, or you could not read the arguments right or you cannot comprehend it? cause I am damn sure we are saying the same thing, so that must mean you are also dumb and goofy.
Cause R is not superior to R, but R x R x R³ tiering wise is superior to just R³ or R x R³ or just R, which was the point of my arguments there, so what is wrong in what I said?

In fact the whole transcending arguments has nothing to do with 5D or 6D per say, he said temporal dimensions are automatically superior on the wiki, and I said they are not but rather it is the combination of an extra temporal dimension with an existing spacetime or space that is transcendent to an ordinary space-time. Which is literally what you said.
You know I really thought I said something dumb, I cannot believe I waited days only for you to say the same dumb thing you claim I said too, unless you are misreading my arguments, we are both goofy.

Edit: I guess what I am trying to say is that next time before you attack someone at least understand their point or at least make sure you get what they are saying, Sorry if I was harsh in the message above but really we are saying the same thing at least that is how I see it, so it could only mean you did not understand what I am saying and decided to call it out.