Chris Jericho vs Junko Hokaze (Chris Jericho World Heavyweight Championship Open Challenge)

[DemonicDude]

How do tag team matches go ? Both characters needs to 9-B ? or we can choose a 9-B with 9-C partner lol

 

[RandomGuy2345]

How do tag team matches go ? Both characters needs to 9-B ? or we can choose a 9-B with 9-C partner lol

I think all characters need to be 9-B.

 

[DemonicDude]

Pls upgrade NJPW wrestlers to 9-B

 

[RandomGuy2345]

Alright, let me respond to these comments. I've been getting lazy.

 

[Pikaman]

I think all characters need to be 9-B.

You could do a mixed gender type match where you could have a team of 2 characters of different tiers, and then another team with the same tiers, and you are only permitted to face someone in the same tier

 

[DemonicDude]

Ooooo very interesting #SmartPika

 

[RandomGuy2345]

If you have to know: Tables technically cushion the fall. Due to them breaking the deacceleration is more gradual than when falling on an unrelenting stone floor, which diminishes the force acting on the body.

It barely cushions the fall. It's not the same as landing on a bouncy castle to cushion your fall. It's still going to hurt like shit to the point where there's hardly a difference, especially if it's a high fall.

If you are in a hold, a good way of freeing yourself is hitting the opponent until they let you go. Typical holds make it harder to do effective hits, but not impossible. And if you have an AP advantage what's usually lesser hits would still be effective.

With the way Jericho's submission moves (Walls of Jericho and Liontamer) position the opponent, it's going to be very hard to find a way to hit your opponent. It really depends on what kind of hold you're in. Only really experienced wrestlers like Jericho would know how to escape holds that are almost impossible for a normal human to escape.

To that comes the LS thing. Like, say he has her in a hold that blocks an arm and both legs (somehow). Then Junko could still use her remaining hand to lift the both up or even throw them into the air. And from there she can basically repeatedly crash him (well, them both, but with him below) into the ground, which would continue to deal lots of damage each time.

The thing is that the way the Walls of Jericho and Liontamer will position Junko, she won't be able to hit him by normal means. Jericho's entire body weight is going to be on her back (and a knee is going to be pressed right on her head with the Liontamer). Unless Junko has shown to deal with wrestling holds, I find it hard to believe she can escape those submission moves. Of course, there's no doubt in my mind that she can escape from a hold as simple as a headlock, but the Walls of Jericho and Liontamer? Eh, I don't know.

I still don't understand how a wrestling hold will negate regen.

Regen lower than mid level won't help when it comes to passing out/getting KO'd. That's what I'm basically saying here. Junko's regen will help with Chris' normal attacks, but some of his stronger moves, as well as his signature submission maneuvers will pay dividends for him here.

What the pain is concerned... that will immediately stop as her body regenerates the damage?

Mid-Low: The ability to heal wounds that would normally leave large scars, such as severe burns or deep injuries. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think a submission move can leave a large scar, severe burns, or deep injuries. Neither does any of Jericho's moves in his arsenal. Only weapons like a kendo stick or a steel chair would deal this kind of damage. Tbf, Jericho can potentially leave a bruise on Junko, so she'll likely regenerate from that, but other than that, the only time I can think of a scenario where Junko's regen will help is if she's getting hit by the weapons Jericho finds under the ring.

The Liontamer is a hold that will not work here, in any case. If you brought Junko into the upside down position, she would just push herself and Chris up with her hands, as her LS is superior to their combined weight. (unless you can anchor yourself to the ground or fly you can't push something down with more force than your weight)

How is Junko going to push herself and Jericho up with her hands when she can barely see what's going on since a knee is getting pressed on her head? I showed you an image of it in my earlier comments, so I highly doubt Junko can escape the hold like this.

What kind of damage does Codebreaker deal?

Literally what Pika said earlier in the thread. If used in the beginning of the match or early on (which wrestlers will do), then the opponent will either be stunned or extremely vulnerable. If used after a decent time of fighting, then the move will either incap or KO the opponent. While there's no visible damage done to the opponent, it effects the opponent depending on how early the move is used.

Eh, I see her getting in a good hit or two.

Of course. It's far from impossible for Junko to hit Jericho, especially with her feints, which Jericho won't be prepared for at first.

I think countering won't be as easy as Chris will will have some serious knockback whenever he blocks one of her blows.

1. The ropes will be there for leverage, which can Jericho can use to hit a move on Junko
2. Jericho is more likely to dodge than block when it comes to his IR (most IR I've seen works that way)

Why won't Junko see Codebreaker coming? It's not exactly the most stealthy move nor a very surprising technique in principle. He has to outright grab her head first and then bring it to the knee.

He can hit it when his opponents least expect it.

To answer the question why it isn't suited as a feint counter... well, I don't think the posutre of Junko gives a good opportunity there. While her fist is between them grabbing her head and then doing the knee kick would be impossible. He would hardly be able to grab unto the head on that distance

Eh. That depends on what Junko would go for with her feints. If she goes for a feint where Jericho can't counter it into a Codebreaker, then that's fair, but if he can counter it into a Codebreaker, then GG.

and even if he somehow managed, she can use the arm between herself and Chris to interrupt the move by, for example, pushing/punching Chris away.

Um, no. The only time someone was ever shown to do that was Brock Lesnar, someone with higher LS than Jericho. Highly doubt Junko can just push or punch Jericho away.

Generally, Junko's fighting style isn't one where she allows opponents to get into that super close grappling range.

And Jericho is more than skilled enough to counter this. This is his home turf after all. If anything, Jericho is going to be controlling the pace of this matchup, and Junko would have to get accustomed to a location she is not familiar with in the slightest. Jericho has dealt with wrestlers whose fighting style isn't just straight grappling. He's fought luchadores who are notorious for their high-flying, fast-paced action (Rey Mysterio) on numerous occasions. Their whole shtick is making sure to not get into a grappling position with other wrestlers, as they almost always have the higher LS. This isn't anything new to Jericho.

So you give Junko something so durable that she can swing it full force without it breaking? She sure will be happy not to hold back for once.

Well, some of the weapons do break if they are used enough, or if the weapons are hit against hard enough material. I'm specifically talking about the kendo sticks and steel chairs. If they're used too much, they will break. Something like a ladder will be much harder to break (though it will be a bit harder to utilize). Also, this is assuming that Junko is going to hit Jericho every single time with said weapons. Jericho has decades of experience in that ring, and has used those weapons on numerous occasions. Dodging those attacks will be no problem for Jericho. Jericho has legit done the Codebreaker with a steel chair. Jericho is far more experienced with these weapons, so he'll know how to counter and use those weapons way better than Junko.

What I mean is that Junko's analysis and planning is good enough to even account for things beyond human capabilities. In fact, in ToAru analyzing how the opponent works is essential for any battle, as not understanding the power the opponent uses is a death sentence. So if she can do this analysis against unknown supernatural stuff, I'm confident she can comfortably figure out regular stuff.

Analyzing how the opponent works throughout the battle is something wrestlers do on a daily basis. If they've never faced the opponent before, they're going to get a feel of how the opponent works, and then they can find ways to counter their attacks. That's simple stuff for a WWE wrestler.

In a RL boxing match, someone fighting a twice as strong opponent probably has no chance. Just saiyan.

But this isn't a boxing matchup? Plus, if you have good reactions (or IR like Jericho does), then you can continuously dodge your opponent and pick the right spots. A wrestler is beating a boxer IRL, even if we assume said boxer is twice as strong. It's a proven fact. Wrestling is a far more versatile way of fighting than boxing. Using just strikes against a wrestler isn't going to cut it. Besides, Junko is 2x stronger if we round it. The AP is somewhat noticeable, but it's not a massive factor. Jericho (and WWE wrestlers in general) have dealt with fighting people with AP, Speed, LS, Skill/Experience, and Range advantages.

Overall, I got Jericho High diff. Junko is stronger, and her feints will be a lot of trouble for Jericho. However, Jericho has the Skill, Experience, IR, and the home field advantage to control the pace of the match. He also has the patent Codebreaker, Walls of Jericho, and Liontamer that will either leave Junko extremely vulnerable at best, or incapped/KO'd at worst.

 

[DemonicDude]

God level argument

 

[DemonicDude]

There are 9-C level character in this verse too I just checked. Maybe we can do Jericho and Kenny vs them in a Tag Team Match

 

[DemonicDude]

Jericho's submission hold is far deadlier especially in his AEW/NJPW key and his submission in Njpw should be comparable to his WWE key.
It was explained by NJPW commentary team that it took
"Every ounce of energy" for Kenny to escape the submission of Walls of Jericho and Lion Tamer, Both of them are still one of the best Pro Wrestling holds.
So it inflict high amount of pain and exert lot of energy far higher then what I inittially thought.

Unless Junko has specific holds and grapple trainning as far as grappling goes in Close Quarter Combat I'm almost certain Jericho would be at his best combined that with his home turf and skill advantage I will vote for Jericho for now.

 

[RandomGuy2345]

Using clips from AEW/NJPW should be fine as long as you aren't talking about Jericho's character in that promotion, different techniques he used in that promotion, as well as his different abilities.

Talking about a time when Jericho used the Walls of Jericho and/or Liontamer in a different promotion (specifically AEW/NJPW) is just fine to do, as he made those moves famous in WWE.

 

[DemonicDude]

It's going to take a lot to escape from Walls of Jericho and it doesnt seem to be the case for Junko here.
Jericho's move being escaped by someone who can wrestle Non-Stop for 70 minutes goes to show, You need to be the best of the very best to escape that
By the time she would, Her back would be injured and
it seems to take incredible energy out of you which directly coorelates to Stamina-Draining.
Jericho character is Pain-Maker in NJPW and it's evident here because it simply refers to the damage his holds does in combat crippling Stamina.

 

[DontTalkDT]

It barely cushions the fall. It's not the same as landing on a bouncy castle to cushion your fall. It's still going to hurt like shit to the point where there's hardly a difference, especially if it's a high fall.

Eh, not really debating the validity of the feat. I was asked so I gave a reason.

With the way Jericho's submission moves (Walls of Jericho and Liontamer) position the opponent, it's going to be very hard to find a way to hit your opponent. It really depends on what kind of hold you're in. Only really experienced wrestlers like Jericho would know how to escape holds that are almost impossible for a normal human to escape.

The thing is that the way the Walls of Jericho and Liontamer will position Junko, she won't be able to hit him by normal means. Jericho's entire body weight is going to be on her back (and a knee is going to be pressed right on her head with the Liontamer). Unless Junko has shown to deal with wrestling holds, I find it hard to believe she can escape those submission moves. Of course, there's no doubt in my mind that she can escape from a hold as simple as a headlock, but the Walls of Jericho and Liontamer? Eh, I don't know.

The thing you are not considering is that Junko is much much stronger than a regular human. Jericho's entire body weight is on her back? Junko can lift up over ten times that. She can lift him and herself from the ground to escape these holds.

Given the LS advantage of Chris she can't easily free herself from holds where he can use his strength to pin her down, but she herself has enough LS that holds where he pins her down with his weight, like Liontamer and Wall of Jericho, are basically ineffective as his weight is just so much less than her LS.

I can see him holding on to her, buth I can't see him keeping her to the ground.

(She has feats of jumping several meters without startup and while carrying a person btw. In Astral Buddy Chapter 1 to be specific)

Regen lower than mid level won't help when it comes to passing out/getting KO'd. That's what I'm basically saying here. Junko's regen will help with Chris' normal attacks, but some of his stronger moves, as well as his signature submission maneuvers will pay dividends for him here.

Depends on how they make her pass out... so how do they make her pass out?

Mid-Low: The ability to heal wounds that would normally leave large scars, such as severe burns or deep injuries. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think a submission move can leave a large scar, severe burns, or deep injuries. Neither does any of Jericho's moves in his arsenal. Only weapons like a kendo stick or a steel chair would deal this kind of damage. Tbf, Jericho can potentially leave a bruise on Junko, so she'll likely regenerate from that, but other than that, the only time I can think of a scenario where Junko's regen will help is if she's getting hit by the weapons Jericho finds under the ring.

A submission move also doesn't deal damage as far as I am aware. Since getting pinned down isn't a wincon in this match, and incap needs 24 hours which definitely ain't happening, I fail to see what Chris gains from that.

Like, a move that deals no damage can't be regenerated from, sure. But... it also deals no damage, so you can't use it to win.

How is Junko going to push herself and Jericho up with her hands when she can barely see what's going on since a knee is getting pressed on her head? I showed you an image of it in my earlier comments, so I highly doubt Junko can escape the hold like this.

Why would she need to be able to see? To push herself up she only needs to know where the floor is and I think she can figure that one out.

Like, in terms of weight/LS comparison imagine you were held in that hold by an incredibly strong cat. Like, just a normal housecat. Even if the cat is so strong that you can't shake them off, it standing on your neck won't prevent you from getting up. And the situation with Junko is worse since, other than a normal person like us, she can push her own weight up with a single arm.

Literally what Pika said earlier in the thread. If used in the beginning of the match or early on (which wrestlers will do), then the opponent will either be stunned or extremely vulnerable. If used after a decent time of fighting, then the move will either incap or KO the opponent. While there's no visible damage done to the opponent, it effects the opponent depending on how early the move is used.

Like, as a supernatural effect or just because later in the fight opponents are more damaged/exhausted?

Anyway, that still doesn't really answer my question. From what it sounds like we are talking a concussion here, by hitting the head hard, aren't we?

1. The ropes will be there for leverage, which can Jericho can use to hit a move on Junko
2. Jericho is more likely to dodge than block when it comes to his IR (most IR I've seen works that way)

1. With how hard Junko hits ropes won't be there for long. Expect the ring to get decimated.

2. Alright, but then he can't counter and dodging a feint leaves you vulnerable to the real hit.

He can hit it when his opponents least expect it.

And when would that be in this match? Like, I would assume Junko won't stop attacking until he's unconscious, so no helping him up stuff. And she generally has super senses so she can pick up on tricks better than regular people.

Eh. That depends on what Junko would go for with her feints. If she goes for a feint where Jericho can't counter it into a Codebreaker, then that's fair, but if he can counter it into a Codebreaker, then GG.

Well, as said, Junko doesn't really fight in grappling range. She is more of a punch/kick fighter.

Um, no. The only time someone was ever shown to do that was Brock Lesnar, someone with higher LS than Jericho. Highly doubt Junko can just push or punch Jericho away.

Until he has a grip on her she can definitely do that. Like, even if she literally couldn't move him at all (which is unlikely unless Chris can anchor himself to the ground. Given, many characters have that as implicit power) she would then push herself backwards by pushing on him which would end up with the same effect: Distance being created between them.

And Jericho is more than skilled enough to counter this. This is his home turf after all. If anything, Jericho is going to be controlling the pace of this matchup, and Junko would have to get accustomed to a location she is not familiar with in the slightest. Jericho has dealt with wrestlers whose fighting style isn't just straight grappling. He's fought luchadores who are notorious for their high-flying, fast-paced action (Rey Mysterio) on numerous occasions. Their whole shtick is making sure to not get into a grappling position with other wrestlers, as they almost always have the higher LS. This isn't anything new to Jericho.

I think you overestimate the home advantage here... especially since the ring almost certainly won't be standing for long.

Anyway, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Lucha libre still grappling focussed rather than punch/kick focussed?

Well, some of the weapons do break if they are used enough, or if the weapons are hit against hard enough material. I'm specifically talking about the kendo sticks and steel chairs. If they're used too much, they will break. Something like a ladder will be much harder to break (though it will be a bit harder to utilize). Also, this is assuming that Junko is going to hit Jericho every single time with said weapons. Jericho has decades of experience in that ring, and has used those weapons on numerous occasions. Dodging those attacks will be no problem for Jericho. Jericho has legit done the Codebreaker with a steel chair. Jericho is far more experienced with these weapons, so he'll know how to counter and use those weapons way better than Junko.

Junko has swung steal beams around before... and I don't think blunt weapons differ much. And, has Chris displayed mastery of the weapons in any form? I don't think years of experience just swinging them around is going to be much of an advantage. Junko almost certainly also has years of mastery in using whichever objects in her surroundings to fight.

Analyzing how the opponent works throughout the battle is something wrestlers do on a daily basis. If they've never faced the opponent before, they're going to get a feel of how the opponent works, and then they can find ways to counter their attacks. That's simple stuff for a WWE wrestler.

Yeah, they might be about equal there. The only thing he might be slower on the uptake of are supernatural powers, but in Junko's case that's essentially only the regen and super senses.

But this isn't a boxing matchup? Plus, if you have good reactions (or IR like Jericho does), then you can continuously dodge your opponent and pick the right spots. A wrestler is beating a boxer IRL, even if we assume said boxer is twice as strong. It's a proven fact. Wrestling is a far more versatile way of fighting than boxing. Using just strikes against a wrestler isn't going to cut it. Besides, Junko is 2x stronger if we round it. The AP is somewhat noticeable, but it's not a massive factor. Jericho (and WWE wrestlers in general) have dealt with fighting people with AP, Speed, LS, Skill/Experience, and Range advantages.

Junko's gonna make it a boxing match. Or a kickboxing match, I guess. Don't think wrestling is generally better than that... especially not for superhumans.

And I don't really have to say how Chris winning against people with advantage in everything is either a fluke or PIS, right? Obviously doesn't make sense to consistently win against people better at everything than you.

Let me add one more thing not yet brought up: Junko is really good at dodging. Aim dodging to be specific, possibly aided by her super senses. She was able to fight Iruka Yumiya for extended amounts of time and defeat her, despite the fact that Yumiya spams actual lightspeed lasers as attacks. (and is skilled enough to include feints in that as well) Houjo also found it very difficult to land any hits on her, although that's less impressive. I don't think it's Chris with the dodging advantage in this fight.

I also want to add that Junko has deadly aim with her super senses. Better than real life archers. If she throws stuff it will probably hit incredibly precisely.

TL;DR Junko is stronger, has range with deadly precision, aside from giving her a concussion I don't see any moves from Chris that deal permanent damage (and if he is restricted to just one damaging moves it will become incredibly predictable), and his favourite ground locks don't work well against an opponent that can lifter their and Chris' combined weight with ease. So I still see Junko take it.

 

[DontTalkDT]

It's going to take a lot to escape from Walls of Jericho and it doesnt seem to be the case for Junko here.
Jericho's move being escaped by someone who can wrestle Non-Stop for 70 minutes goes to show, You need to be the best of the very best to escape that
By the time she would, Her back would be injured and
it seems to take incredible energy out of you which directly coorelates to Stamina-Draining.
Jericho character is Pain-Maker in NJPW and it's evident here because it simply refers to the damage his holds does in combat crippling Stamina.

Her back would instantly heal.

Unless you are suggesting supernatural stamina drain, I doubt the stamina thing applies to Junko. She probably escapes the grip quite differently than that dude, although I don't know since the clip doesn't show how he escapes and after how much struggle.

 

[DemonicDude]

I probably don't have enough arguments for supernatural stamina drain but not only does it drain stamina,
Move is said out to break someone in half here's how Kenny escaped

But then again having a strong will to not give up is part of Kenny's character's ages ago since 2015ish so maybe he broke out of it because of willpower even if he does.
Junko does not have will power and healing does not equal to that.
I'll let Random make the next counter argument.

 

[RandomGuy2345]

DT, why are you so persistent

 

[DontTalkDT]

I probably don't have enough arguments for supernatural stamina drain but not only does it drain stamina,
Move is said out to break someone in half here's how Kenny escaped

But then again having a strong will to not give up is part of Kenny's character's ages ago since 2015ish so maybe he broke out of it because of willpower even if he does.
Junko does not have will power and healing does not equal to that.
I'll let Random make the next counter argument.

What makes you think Junko has no willpower?

And I'm gonna doubt that 'breaking in half' think´g until I see it... not that it would even work as Junko has higher durability.

Anyway, Kenny seems to have difficulty here because he can't just keep laying on the ground and has trouble lifting Chris off. Same doesn't apply to Junko.

---

Extra argument time: Did you think Junko would just stay around and play fair the whole time? Nope!

As her intelligence makes you think she is actually pretty smart and, if finding herself in a bad position, will retreat and come back with a clever plan.

For example: When fighting Iruka she found herself at a disadvantage, as she couldn't safely get close to her due to her sound-based attacks. So she fought her on range, throwing heavy stuff at her until she ran out of stuff to throw. So what then? Close in despite being at a disadvantage there?

Nope! Tactical retreat time. She used a chance and ran away. And then quickly came up with a trap:

Spoiler: scans

And we were talking about surprise attacks... here is her casually reacting to a surprise attack conducted via teleportation while she was in a non-combat situation:

Spoiler: scans

And another thing not brought up yet: Junko going all out doesn't just make her stronger... but also faster. So she can get a speed advantage once the fight reaches its peak. So much for the late game Code Breaker.

She also has some good advantage in athletics:

Spoiler: scans

 

[RandomGuy2345]

So... Much... Info...

 

[DontTalkDT]

DT, why are you so persistent

You should be glad the ToAru crowd ain't as active anymore. A year or two ago this would be a flame war by now.

 

[DemonicDude]

You are supposed to have difficulty escaping Walls of Jericho, That just further proves my point, Everyone has willpower for Kenny it's different it's mentioned on his profile he was assaulted and violated by Chris Jericho off screen too, He's persistent even when knowing you're gonna be beaten up by dozens of people where you don't have a chance to fight back he still would not.

What makes you think Junko has no willpower?

Because I don't see scans of it or it being "on the same level as someone like Kenny, Why do you think it's even on the same level saying my character has will power does NOT equal to it being on the same level of others.
If fact Kenny has grappled and overpowered people who can lift wrestlers who are 360 pounds it's not an LS issue infact not only that but he can lift people with one hand, When your stamina is being drained and pain is being inflicted by a master of holds like Chris Jericho there is obviously gonna be struggle.

 

[DemonicDude]

What's the conclusion here ?

 

[RandomGuy2345]

What's the conclusion here ?

I'll make a refute later on.

 

[Pikaman]

You could do a mixed gender type match where you could have a team of 2 characters of different tiers, and then another team with the same tiers, and you are only permitted to face someone in the same tier

Well, this tournament has come and went with The Demon Finn Bálor and Jericho reigning victorious!

so.... back to this match...

I’ve definitely learnt more about Junko through the tag tournament, and do lean towards her here after hearing everything, while still keeping in mind what was discussed on this thread. I won’t vote yet though

I will say the Walls of Jericho as a submission manoeuvre could be the perfect counter to Junko’s insane regen, how’s her willpower?

 

[DontTalkDT]

I will say the Walls of Jericho as a submission manoeuvre could be the perfect counter to Junko’s insane regen, how’s her willpower?

That hold doesn't work, as Junko's LS is higher than her and Chris' combined weight. I.e. pinning her to the ground doesn't work because she can lift whatever is pinning her. Or, to not get back into the loop of me explaining why that's the case, alternatively, Junko is strong enough to destroy the ground below her to stop being pinned against it.

Anyways, her willpower is probably rather high. She's willing to endure the pain of injuries and generally likes fighting.

 

[RandomGuy2345]

That hold doesn't work, as Junko's LS is higher than her and Chris' combined weight. I.e. pinning her to the ground doesn't work because she can lift whatever is pinning her.

That literally does not matter. Junko has no experience dealing with submission holds. I can certainly believe Junko can escape something as simple as a headlock, but the Walls of Jericho? Literally the best of the best in the WWE struggle to get out of this submission hold, and if they do, they are extremely worn out. Keep in mind those exact people are more skilled than Junko, add on the fact that Junko has no experience dealing with submission holds.

Or, to not get back into the loop of me explaining why that's the case, alternatively, Junko is strong enough to destroy the ground below her to stop being pinned against it.

1. She's going to be in excruciating pain to the point where I highly doubt she can destroy the ground, especially the way she'll be positioned.
2. Junko has no experience dealing with these type of holds.
3. Jericho has put people more skilled than Junko in the Walls of Jericho.
4. Those exact same people struggled greatly in getting out of the hold.

Anyways, her willpower is probably rather high. She's willing to endure the pain of injuries and generally likes fighting.

The same can be said for Jericho. He has Immense Pain Tolerance after all.

Plus, what can Junko do to Jericho offensively? We keep on talking about how Junko counters everything Jericho pulls out (which is 100% wrong), but what can Junko do to Jericho?

Her feints are helpful, but those will only get her so far before Jericho starts to counter those feints. Not to mention Jericho has IR that works both offensively and defensively, which will make him a tough guy to hit, which is already relatively difficult with the solid skill advantage Jericho holds here.

Also, Jericho is getting upgraded to 492 Kilojoules, so the AP gap is 100% negligible (though the gap wasn't even anything crazy to begin with).