Chaos Force Low 1-C Upgrade?

[Trumpty_Dumpty]

?

Don't question, just accept

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

He was not considered in a tenure but Merlin states once Mogul was freed from the Master Emerald, he used the last of his power to deal a fatal blow to the ancient walkers. When the Master Emerald was formed, Mogul's life force was fused with the power for 13 Emeralds to make the Master Emerald.

Mogul couldn't have done wounded the Ancient Walkers in Base, or else he wouldn't have waited his immortal life for the power of Enerjak's avatar. After being unfused with the Master Emerald, that statement of Mogul using the last of that power he holds to attack the Ancient Walkers appears correct, considering the context of what Mogul does later in the comic, such as using Turbo Tails as a power supply to recover his form. (Mogul is a very cool Sonic Villain)

How about Ultra Sonic? Is he a legit L1-C character?

 

[TheShieldToronto76]

How about Ultra Sonic? Is he a legit L1-C character?

It just increases his power, that is it like nothing suggests he can be a straight up Low 1-C, just reaches likely.


I always knew Archie Sonic characters and Sonic himself can reach Low 1-C before, just was doubted but here we are, maybe I might side with Low 1-C Sonic once again

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

It just increases his power, that is it like nothing suggests he can be a straight up Low 1-C, just reaches likely.


I always knew Archie Sonic characters and Sonic himself can reach Low 1-C before, just was doubted but here we are, maybe I might side with Low 1-C Sonic once again

I'm pretty sure that Ultra Sonic used the Master Emerald to transform that should be Superior to Mogul, I maybe wrong tho

 

[GreatIskandar14045]

We shouldn't rely on Ultima since I doubt he will even comment here, at least he looks like a typical busy person, he ignored my TTGL CRT even though he's been tagged like many many times before (Although most stuffs of my CRT are ended accepted). So the best way I think right now is, we call Ant here so he can inform the other staffs.

 

[Planck69]

Let's just get this accepted before discussing the scaling.

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

Let's just get this accepted before discussing the scaling.

Agree

 

[Delta333]

He solos the verse now

UKG's still there and no one in sonic can interact with NEP type 2

 

[ElixirBlue]

UKG's still there and no one in sonic can interact with NEP type 2

Sadly, facts

I'm pretty sure that Ultra Sonic used the Master Emerald to transform that should be Superior to Mogul, I maybe wrong tho

Yep, you are wrong on that. Ultra Sonic using the Master Emerald never happened. Sonic only transformed into Ultra using a Super Emerald and Power Rings.

 

[Delta333]

Anyways I'm neutral since there is no evidence about inhabitants in higher plane trivialize everything below them into insignificance,but leaning toward possibly low 1-C since they transcend 4-D reality

 

[ElixirBlue]

Pretty sure a higher plane and being beyond one's comprehension qualifies enough. The emphasis on being infinitely superior is more for dimensional differences, which isn't the case here.

 

[Delta333]

As far as I'm aware being beyond one's comprehension has nothing to do with low 1-C,I mean one character in same dimension can still be beyond others's comprehension too

 

[ElixirBlue]

They’re not talking about characters, they’re talking about a higher plane of existence.

Beyond Comprehension is how a character from that Higher Plane of Existence describes the Chaos Force to a lower plane existence, Tails.

 

[My_area]

Going to address the points soon

 

[Gabs22_Gamer]

Hmmmm...

Well, the OP seems fine, agree with it.

 

[GreatIskandar14045]

I trust @Maverick_Zero_X's sense of judgement.

 

[My_area]

It seems like a lot of people noticed the “outside of space-time” and “higher plane of reality” statements but somehow not the “they transcended into the Chaos Force” bit. I’ll respond later.

Well,we did notice transcended in it which is fine and all but we have issue with the degree of the transcendence which doesn't look to be at level of Low 1-C

There's a barrier and a World that think the Archie Sonic world as mere fiction it seems to be

Eh doesn't this seem like 4th wall breaking rather than just evidence for reality-fiction difference?

And there's seem to be a Transdimensional Barrier too, and since this elemt is tied to Ken Penders, these Barrier and possibly the real world is also gone by the SGW

I mean transdimensional barrier doesn't automatically mean higher dimensional barrier though

Transcending 4D spacetime in 1 dimensional gap is 5D simply because 4+1 = 5.

Transcending 4D with no degree of transcendence given is just 4D though,transcendence doesn't by default refer 1 spatial dimension jump

Sir, Grandfather Mathias is Transcendence over the very concept of time, and it's stated that the plane is where the Brotherhood Echidnas goes

Just evaluating based on the scans it seemed to me that concept of time doesn't apply to them hence they are ageless but it doesn't mean 5D because time can exist in 5D in form of 4 spatial and 1 temporal dimension(4D+1D)

Unless I’m missing something, spaces qualitatively superior to space-time quantify for Tier 1.

I can’t find anything on our Tiering System page that states a “reality-fiction difference" is an absolute necessity for a realm to quantify for Low 1-C. Your dissent seems to hinge entirely on this point, but from my experience not all Low 1-C reasoning on the site revolves around “sees X as fiction”.

Ex:

Takamagahara System: Low Complex Multiverse level (Is made with the sole intent of being the replacement for the Master Unit, is capable of controlling the flow of information from the boundary, a realm that transcends the multiverse)

By qualitatively I assumed its referring to Inaccessible jump between the Low 1-C space and infinite number of space and time

I mean,reality-fiction difference isn't absolutely necessary for tier 1 you are right.Its one of the ways to enter Low 1-C. The other ways being preeence of the brane cosmology in the verse or Inaccessible( No matter how much "finity" is stacked,it can't reach it) gap between higher to lower dimensions. So while all Low 1-C wont have reality-fiction difference as a reasoning which is fine,it should atleast have something closely resembling these reasons in order to qualify for Low 1-C and transcending(The degree of transcending not being degree of infinity) space and time doesn't qualify for Low 1-C I believe

I checked the description and seeing other comments there seems to be more context then whats listen in the description for AP because simply transcending time and space doesn't look enough for Low 1-C.

Hmmm, I don't remember this exist.

When did it get added?

It got added quite recently it seems.

Such a thing does matter when the Chaos Force has statements that would let it transcend the multiverse's space-time.

Simply transcending space and time doesn't equate to transcending the space and time by degree of infinity which is what the entire "transcending space and time of Chaos force" seems to base around.

Outside, as a preposition, can refer to transcendence too. Not sure where you got the idea it cannot.

What the definition just shows as a preposition doesn't mean transcendence
Just look at the example they gave for the 2nd usage in the preposition
"the switchboard is not staffed outside normal office hours"
Here outside is just being used to show that switchboard isn't staffed when beyond the scope of office hours not that it transcends the normal office hours.

Nothing about the scans posted is vague. For one, the beyond space-time scan is in reference to it being above the multiverse, it's that simple. Pretty easy to accept when there are scans showing how it's described as literally transcending (something you somehow managed to ignore as Mav even pointed out). Secondly, the others are just talking about how it's a superior or inconceivable plane of existence. Saying things are "vague" as a means to discredit them is you literally just trying to dog whistle to people who aren't certain about the context of the panels being used for the upgrade. Describe why they are vague instead of just labeling it as such.

They are vague in the sense of talking about degree of transcendence.Its not beyond,its outside space and time.Outside space and time =/= Beyond space and time.Outside building =/= Beyond building,the same is the case here.You can show the word transcendence innumerable times and it still wouldn't explain the degree of the transcendence on level of Low 1-C until relevant scans explaining the degree of transcendence is posted.Thats quite a accusation you put on her when she is merely disagreeing with the reasoning of transcendence being used on par with low 1-C and calling it vague.

I was originally going to address My area's stuff too, but it's literally just repeating these arguments over and over again or repeating his own point about an incorrect take about site policies. It's somewhat disappointing to see that the bandwagon of reasons to deny this CRT came from people literally just repeating their points ad nauseum, refusing to look at things in a wider context, misrepresenting numerous ideas, or using non-arguments as a way to deny something that most people agree is straightforwa

It appears as repetition to you because I have been addressing the same points made by others which would also come under standard of repetition which you of course didn't mention.No,I am not having a incorrect take on sites policies,Its literally how Low 1-C was used to be dealt and this amount of evidence would never have warrant for Low 1-C upgrade but now it appears that as if policies for Low 1-C has loosened up.Also no it isn't ad naueseum,its simply arguing with multitude of reasoning being present here by people,that isn't ad nauesum.Except that peoppe are looking at the wider context presented by the op and it still doesn't warrant Low 1-C.There isn't much misinterpretion going on here,just commenting based on what the scans has shown and these "non arguments" aren't really getting refuted,rather just ignored some of the times.

Cool, that doesn't change the fact you were looking at only a specific section of the upgrade and trying to act like that was the only reason so you could deny it. You only didn't look at it in isolation once you were called out on that. Mav has already shown the transcending part as being adequate with the additional context for Low 1-C via site standards.

No,she has been addressing the arguments based on looking at them completely.Except we are literally explaining with reasoning as to how it isn't enough for Low 1-C unless it has changed or loosened up which might be the case here.

We've already been over how that's not a refute. Outside is being used as a preposition, and it can mean to be above or transcendent to something as a preposition. When things like Chaos Emeralds have to manifest in order to be present in their reality, I'm pretty sure the context is explicit enough to assume that definition.

Except the fact that definition wasn't even being used in a way which you ascribed it as such as I have explained.Preposition usage of outside literally means that you aren't in the structure rather out of the structure or beyond the boundaries of the structure.Like I am outside of the house.Here outside being used as a preposition means that I am beyond the boundary of the house hence I am outside of the house.Manifesting into reality just means its outside of the reality bounds which doesn't mean it acts as degree of infinity transcendence over the reality.

Its kinda difficult to figure out if the ppl who are disagreeing have a valid reason to do so, as users have pointed out, the ones disagreeing have taken one piece of evidence and saying its not enough, while not looking at all the evidence together at once.

How is it not valid reason to disagree when we are literally explaining by detail as to how it doesn't qualify for Low 1-C.I am not sure where you are getting this from but we are literally evaluating based on all of the evidences given in this thread.

“Transcendence is more like the first step in the right direction”

Archie’s Multiverse = Infinite

The Chaos Force:

* Transcendence statements, which describes the process of going from one plane of existence to another

* Higher Plane of Existence (x2) statements

* Beyond statements by the Brotherhood of Guardians to Knuckles

* 7 Chaos Emeralds have no limitations to rewriting Space/Time, 3D and 4D of the infinite multiverse, and the Chaos Force exist Beyond that.

1 single Post Harmony Chaos Emerald rewrote Space/Time, 3D and 4D, for the Prime Zone during the first Genesis Wave, but didn’t effect Zonic who existed outside of the Prime Zone’s universe, and the Chaos Force exist beyond Zonic.

* Althair describes the Chaos Force to 3D Tails it’s beyond comprehension, another beyond statement, as 3dimensional Tails can comprehend space and time, 3D and 4D

* “Outside of Time and Space” is not a ceiling cap term, as downplayers of this thread has tried to use it as. But it indicates it’s outside of the chaos emeralds initial influence, which their applications have no limitations with 3-D and 4D.

This is just literally quoting transcendence again and again which doesn't explain the degree of the transcendence here.Also I am not sure chaos emeralds suddenly have no limitations in 4D?Also labelling us as downplayers is uncalled for,we aren't disagreeing just for disagreeing saie but because evidence presented just doesn't look sufficient for us.We aren't calling you guys highballers or wwankers right? Then no need to call us downplayers as it only invites toxicity thank you.

Yes but im asking if your evidence proves they're infinitely superior. Not just superior, but infinitely superior.

This in short is my question to all of pro Low 1-C supporters and yet to get any evidences for that.

Pretty sure a higher plane and being beyond one's comprehension qualifies enough. The emphasis on being infinitely superior is more for dimensional differences, which isn't the case here

Being beyond one comprehension just means that power is beyond the understanding,how this means degree of infinity jump is something I cant understand.

You legit don't need emphasis on infinitely superiority

Not a direct statement but the implication through any means for it is necessary.

That said, this isn't really dimensions coming into play more so levels of existence. In which case enough confirmation of qualitative superiority, such as being beyond a layer's comprehension and being able to do to a lower realm as you please, would be enough to point to transcendence

Its not about higher dimension specifically,its about the gap between 2-A and Low 1-C which is that of qualitative superiority which being beyond comprehension or doing anything in lower realm isn't going to prove it.

This... has been debunked over and over that you don't need a verse to be described on such level in order to bypass Tier 2 when it comes with "transcending time and space" as in the context. I can name a lot of verses which don't have said reality-fiction difference or being described as infinitely transcendence but they do in fact rated as Tier 1, our standards are not that strict. Is this seriously the only argument left to oppose the upgrade? Please read the Tiering System FAQ.

Q: What tier is transcending space and time?​ A: As said above, "transcending space and time" is a very vague statement by itself and can mean multiple things depending on the context in which it is made, as well as how this characteristic is portrayed in the first place. It is perfectly possible for such a statement to mean that a character is simply "untied" from the universe's spacetime, and is thus unaffected by alterations in the timeline and similar meddlings. Likewise, it's not exactly uncommon for time travel (Or any action / process that affects something through different points in time) to be described as "transcending time and space." However, if it is specified that they "transcend space and time" in the sense that they exist on some higher level of reality that is outright superior to a spacetime continuum in nature, then they should be put at Low 1-C, assuming the continuum in question is one comprised of four dimensions. The answer may vary depending on this factor. It should also be noted that simply existing in some alternate state of existence that lacks time and/or space is not really grounds for any tier in particular, as lacking such things does not translate to being superior to them, and would most often overlap with abilities like Acausality or Nonexistent Physiology. A good example of a case like this is Dormammu (Marvel Cinematic Universe), who is stated to exist in a realm "far beyond time," yet never actually displays any superiority over it, and is in fact vulnerable to time-based abilities due to his timeless nature.

Actually last time I checked in order to enter Low 1-C the transcendence on degree of order of infinity is needed,whether its fulfilled by reality-fiction Inaccessible jump or by any other means depends on standards of the verse and the wiki was always this strict since 1 to 2 years back.However it seems that standards might have changed due to posting of faq saying that simply existing on higher level than space and time is enough for Low 1-C when preciously it was just higher degree of 2-A.This argument is literally the only reason why we disagree with tier 1 upgrade otherwise we have no qualm against Low 1-C Archie Sonic especially not me who used to put them at Low 1-C 2 to 3 years back.

Whew that took a hour

 

[My_area]

While I was addressing the arguments,it appeared to me as if Low 1-C standards has changed and got less strict as shown by newly made FAQ page.If thats the case may I see where the Low 1-C standards were changed since if it really did get changed into what FAQ is stating then I can agree to Low 1-C upgrade

 

[Delta333]

In tiering system page currently it still says that infinitely superiority is necessary to qualify solid tier 1

 

[Planck69]

Which transcending space and time is enough for. This isn't that hard.

The FAQ was made by the same people who made the Tiering System anyway.

 

[My_area]

Transcending time and space was previously not supporting evidence for Low 1-C,it even used to be in notes of tiering system.Guess it must have changed or something?

I know,which is why I am asking if its possible to get a thread where standards for Low 1-C were changed?

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

While I was addressing the arguments,it appeared to me as if Low 1-C standards has changed and got less strict as shown by newly made FAQ page.If thats the case may I see where the Low 1-C standards were changed since if it really did get changed into what FAQ is stating then I can agree to Low 1-C upgrade

Tl;dr It's more to do with high 2-A and low 1-C merging than anything also a few 2-Bs became low 1-C for being above/superior to the 4D without needing the word "infinity" to be mentioned at all (which previously would've prevented them from being upgraded via the old standards).

 

[My_area]

Tl;dr It's more to do with high 2-A and low 1-C merging than anything also a few 2-Bs became low 1-C for being above/superior to the 4D without needing the word "infinity" to be mentioned at all (which previously would've prevented them from being upgraded via the old standards).

Yeah I remember High 2-A being changed to Low 1-C but that was at that time where standards were still tight for Low 1-C.So was there any thread which loosened up the standards for Low 1-C during when High 2-A merged with Low 1-C? Because what the newly created FAQ is stating appears to be as if some standards have recently been changed

 

[Delta333]

The FAQ still mentions to superiority
"However, if it is specified that they "transcend space and time" in the sense that they exist on some higher level of reality that is outright superior to a spacetime continuum in nature, then they should be put at Low 1-C"

 

[Planck69]

.....Which is the case here. They transcend to a higher plane of reality than the infinite multiverse. The word "superior" doesn't need to be mentioned for it to be inferred with enough context.

 

[My_area]

The FAQ still mentions to superiority
"However, if it is specified that they "transcend space and time" in the sense that they exist on some higher level of reality that is outright superior to a spacetime continuum in nature, then they should be put at Low 1-C"

The thing is that chaos force is on higher level of reality than 2-A multiverse which is then supported by them beyond the comprehension.So if what FAQ stating is how the standards for Low 1-C is now,then Low 1-C Archie Sonic verse is viable

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

Yeah I remember High 2-A being changed to Low 1-C but that was at that time where standards were still tight for Low 1-C.So was there any thread which loosened up the standards for Low 1-C during when High 2-A merged with Low 1-C? Because what the newly created FAQ is stating appears to be as if some standards have recently been changed

From what I can remember the old standards were essentially you had to be above an infinite multiverse plus be 5D or at least have the feats/statements that prove you're above the 4D but the new standards removed the infinite multiverse rule plus made it so you can't reach Low 1-C or increase AP in 2-A via infinity X infinity iirc.

Also "superior" is just a word example, it's the context that matters and the context within Archie Comics shows the cosmology is low 1-C.

Either way until either Ultima or Ex reply on this CRT further discussion is kinda pointless since it's just arguing from personal perspective at this point which will only lead to circular arguments and derailment.

 

[My_area]

From what I can remember the old standards were essentially you had to be above an infinite multiverse plus be 5D or at least have the feats/statements that prove you're above the 4D but the new standards removed the infinite multiverse rule plus made it so you can't reach Low 1-C or increase AP in 2-A via infinity X infinity iirc.

Also "superior" is just a word example, it's the context that matters and the context within Archie Comics shows the cosmology is low 1-C.

Either way until either Ultima or Ex reply on this CRT further discussion is kinda pointless since it's just arguing from personal perspective at this point which will only lead to circular arguments and derailment.

Wow that infinite multiverse part totally doesn't make sense since you can be Low 1-C without having infinite multiverse since it essentially relies on transcending 4D by 2 orders of infinity but anyways I see.So there was no thread made for degree of transcendence required for Low 1-C?

It all comes down to what superior is.It can make or break this CRT if you will

Okay,fair enough

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

Sadly, facts


Yep, you are wrong on that. Ultra Sonic using the Master Emerald never happened. Sonic only transformed into Ultra using a Super Emerald and Power Rings.

I got the Super Emerald and Master Master Emerald swapped sorry

So Ultra Sonic still isn't Superior to Mogul?

 

[My_area]

I am pretty sure Ultra Sonic is superior to Master Mogul,could be wrong though.

 

[Saiyan40009]

I suppose we will wait until it will be ex and last since this is turning circular discussion

 

[Saiyan40009]

I suppose we will wait until it will be ex and last since this is turning circular discussion

 

[My_area]

Double post happened by mistake but yes you are right

 

[Gabs22_Gamer]

I am pretty sure Ultra Sonic is superior to Master Mogul,could be wrong though.

Ultra Sonic is more powerful than Ugly Naugus.

And Master Mogul receives a power source superior to the emeralds by it´s own by the way.(Aka one Super Emerald is derived as a direct boost from it)

 

[My_area]

So basically Ultra Sonic>Master Mogul yes?

 

[Planck69]

Let's just get this accepted before discussing the scaling.

 

[Gabs22_Gamer]

So basically Ultra Sonic>Master Mogul yes?

I would say that his power comes close but not equal to Mogul in some regards.

Mogul in that state is already more powerful than 3 super forms sooooo... yeah.(It would come pretty close from it, since the Ultra Form boost is pretty much a single Super Emerald plus a lot of power rings if I recall correctly.

 

[My_area]

I would say that his power comes close but not equal to Mogul in some regards.

Mogul in that state is already more powerful than 3 super forms sooooo... yeah.(It would come pretty close from it, since the Ultra Form boost is pretty much a single Super Emerald plus a lot of power rings if I recall correctly.

Fair enough,thanks for the answers.

 

[Greenshifter]

@My_area You good with Low 1-C?

 

[My_area]

@My_area You good with Low 1-C?

I would rather prefer to wait for Sera and Ultima reply on clarifying on standards required for Low 1-C tier because if the standards have changed to become same as what the FAQ is stating then I see no further reasons for denying Low 1-C upgrade and that its fair to agree with the upgrade