Chaos Force Low 1-C Upgrade?

[OnsokunoSonic]

I don't know if these will help but

There's a barrier and a World that think the Archie Sonic world as mere fiction it seems to be

And there's seem to be a Transdimensional Barrier too, and since this elemt is tied to Ken Penders, these Barrier and possibly the real world is also gone by the SGW

I don't know if this will help but hey, it's something worth noticing for 5D Archie Sonic

 

[Beast_Zero_Gudako]

My dear, 3D+1D is what the standard 4-dimensional manifold spacetime is, by intertwining 3-dimensional Euclidean space and 1-dimensional time.

Ummm no, at least not in the context of this thread.

Those Echidnas were occupying 3 dimensional space before becoming one with Chaos Force. Them stating have moving into higher plane means that they are moving to 4 dimensional space.

 

[Ned_the_outer_god]

I don't know if these will help but

There's a barrier and a World that think the Archie Sonic world as mere fiction it seems to be

And there's seem to be a Transdimensional Barrier too, and since this elemt is tied to Ken Penders, these Barrier and possibly the real world is also gone by the SGW

I don't know if this will help but hey, it's something worth noticing for 5D Archie Sonic

Simply just a reality fiction interaction, if anything, Sonic interacting with the higher plane is an anti feat for the higher plane

 

[GreatIskandar14045]

Ummm no, at least not in the context of this thread.

Those Echidnas were occupying 3 dimensional space before becoming one with Chaos Force. Them stating have moving into higher plane means that they are moving to 4 dimensional space.

The context literally said "time and space" so limiting its transcendence to only over 3-dimensional space is not a smart move, in my opinion. Even if we assume it is indeed 4-dimensional space which most likely has it's own time dimension, it means 5-dimensional spacetime.

 

[Beast_Zero_Gudako]

The context literally said "time and space" so limiting its transcendence to only over 3-dimensional space is not a smart move, in my opinion. Even if we assume it is indeed 4-dimensional space which most likely has it's own time dimension, it means 5-dimensional spacetime.

Transcending basic space-time is nowhere near being 5-D.

Like if our standard is really this low, many verses would be Low 1-C already.

 

[GreatIskandar14045]

Transcending basic space-time is nowhere near being 5-D.

Transcending 4D spacetime in 1 dimensional gap is 5D simply because 4+1 = 5.

Like if our standard is really this low, many verses would be Low 1-C already.

Except "many" verses you are talking about have nowhere context as close as this, "transcending time space" is tricky, often a flowery words so we evaluate it case by case.

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

Ummm no, at least not in the context of this thread.

Those Echidnas were occupying 3 dimensional space before becoming one with Chaos Force. Them stating have moving into higher plane means that they are moving to 4 dimensional space.

Sir, Grandfather Mathias is Transcendence over the very concept of time, and it's stated that the plane is where the Brotherhood Echidnas goes

So in my perspective the Higher Plane is indeed 5D

 

[Beast_Zero_Gudako]

Transcending 4D spacetime in 1 dimensional gap is 5D simply because 4+1 = 5.

That's not how it work here. This isn't simple math where you can just add number like that.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Neutral here, but towards agreeing for "possibly Low 2-C"

 

[Ned_the_outer_god]

That's not how it work here. This isn't simple math where you can just add number like that.

Actually, Dimensions do have something to do with math and physics

 

[Planck69]

Neutral here, but towards agreeing for "possibly Low 2-C"

Hmmmm?

 

[Ned_the_outer_god]

Neutral here, but towards agreeing for "possibly Low 2-C"

Actually, Sonic is 11-A due to being a fictional character UwU

 

[GreatIskandar14045]

That's not how it work here. This isn't simple math where you can just add number like that.

I'm not going to elaborate why you are wrong, but if you disagree with our standards you better discuss it with our prominent Tiering System figures.

 

[GreatIskandar14045]

Neutral here, but towards agreeing for "possibly Low 2-C"

It's Low 1-C you dummy

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Neutral here, but towards agreeing for "possibly Low 2-C"

I'm sorry what. Sonic is already 2-A

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

I agree with 5D Archie Sonic btw

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Iike i said, i know about transcendence this and that, outside of space and time this and that, i'm not mean to be rude, but that just it, if this is enough for tier 1, then i think a lot of verse will be tier 1. Anyway, i'm here to agree or disagree, just have some opinion regard this upgrade

pretty sure higher plane is not enough for low 1-C

But the main problem is because Outside Space Time is not enough to reach tier 1, and the transcendence envolves the higher plane of reality that is just a place outside time and space

It seems like the counter argument a bulk of opposition is presenting boils down to “outside of space-time doesn’t mean transcendence”.

I also don’t think “outside” should just equate to “transcend”, unless it’s contextually proven as such. Which I’m pretty sure the scans I’ve presented do:

When one enters the Chaos Force they transcend into it, surpassing space and time. Our standards state this on the matter:
Tiering System FAQ

Q: What tier is transcending space and time?​ A: As said above, "transcending space and time" is a very vague statement by itself and can mean multiple things depending on the context in which it is made, as well as how this characteristic is portrayed in the first place. It is perfectly possible for such a statement to mean that a character is simply "untied" from the universe's spacetime, and is thus unaffected by alterations in the timeline and similar meddlings. Likewise, it's not exactly uncommon for time travel (Or any action / process that affects something through different points in time) to be described as "transcending time and space." However, if it is specified that they "transcend space and time" in the sense that they exist on some higher level of reality that is outright superior to a spacetime continuum in nature, then they should be put at Low 1-C, assuming the continuum in question is one comprised of four dimensions. The answer may vary depending on this factor. It should also be noted that simply existing in some alternate state of existence that lacks time and/or space is not really grounds for any tier in particular, as lacking such things does not translate to being superior to them, and would most often overlap with abilities like Acausality or Nonexistent Physiology. A good example of a case like this is Dormammu (Marvel Cinematic Universe), who is stated to exist in a realm "far beyond time," yet never actually displays any superiority over it, and is in fact vulnerable to time-based abilities due to his timeless nature.

Disagreed with the upgrade

To be honest I am not how some claims like "transcending" or "being in higher plane of reality" even remotely implies Low 1-C or the fact that chaos force has never shown reality-fiction difference with the infinite universes or that it trascends infinite multiverse to such extent that no amount of infinite stacked over multiverse can reach it.As per the tiering system,for Low 1-C simply transcending statement alone doesn't suffice nor does transcendence to unknown degree.Transcendence to Inaccessible degree or that of reality-fiction is needed for low 1-C.All the evidences listed so far just points towards higher 2-A I am sorry.

It would be weird for this upgrade to pass through considering that I am very sure that vs battle wiki is very strict with the transcendence in relation to being used for Low 1-C.So yeah thats my input for this thread.

Unless I’m missing something, spaces qualitatively superior to space-time quantify for Tier 1.

I can’t find anything on our Tiering System page that states a “reality-fiction difference" is an absolute necessity for a realm to quantify for Low 1-C. Your dissent seems to hinge entirely on this point, but from my experience not all Low 1-C reasoning on the site revolves around “sees X as fiction”.

Ex:

Takamagahara System: Low Complex Multiverse level (Is made with the sole intent of being the replacement for the Master Unit, is capable of controlling the flow of information from the boundary, a realm that transcends the multiverse)

 

[Greenshifter]

That's not how it work here. This isn't simple math where you can just add number like that.

It is actually.

Neutral here, but towards agreeing for "possibly Low 2-C"

Seems a bit to the low side but I dig it.

 

[StrymULTRA]

What a Typo does

Tho seriously, possibly Low 1-C seems legit at 1st glance

 

[Planck69]

A lot of the counter-arguments seem to forget that the core part of the qualification is qualitative superiority. Dimensions, layers and the like are just vessels for this point.

 

[GreatIskandar14045]

What a Typo does

That's why you have no friends

 

[Everything12]

We probably need a Higher Dimensional expert like Ultima to give their opinion on this.

 

[Ned_the_outer_god]

We probably need a Higher Dimensional expert like Ultima to give their opinion on this.

I can summon him OwO
Edit: Done

 

[Greenshifter]

It is time to summon the almighty Ultima!

x2ap5nlhy56r.gif (496×280) (v-cdn.net)

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Yaldabaoth: Low Complex Multiverse level (As its administrator, Yaldabaoth holds full control over the Collective Unconscious, a multiversal structure that transcends space and time)

I had a feeling somehow Persona would get thrown in here.

Just to clarify, the Collective Unconscious is superior to the entire Persona multiverse, containing an infinite amount of physical and mental physical realities, transcending it entirely. Just a fraction of it, Enlil’s Theater (the CU created it), was able to view the Akashic Records - which houses the infinite multiverse - as mere film projections that are able to be physically stepped on and edited, quite literally flat.

Yaldabaoth is a superior Administrator than Enlil, manipulating the entire thing.

 

[Ned_the_outer_god]

Calling Ultima at 3AM! Gone wrong, almost died

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

That's quick

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

.

Ah, bad comparison then. I’ll remove that part.

 

[Beast_Zero_Gudako]

Q: What tier is transcending space and time?
A: As said above, "transcending space and time" is a very vague statement by itself and can mean multiple things depending on the context in which it is made, as well as how this characteristic is portrayed in the first place. It is perfectly possible for such a statement to mean that a character is simply "untied" from the universe's spacetime, and is thus unaffected by alterations in the timeline and similar meddlings. Likewise, it's not exactly uncommon for time travel (Or any action / process that affects something through different points in time) to be described as "transcending time and space."

However, if it is specified that they "transcend space and time" in the sense that they exist on some higher level of reality that is outright superior to a spacetime continuum in nature, then they should be put at Low 1-C, assuming the continuum in question is one comprised of four dimensions. The answer may vary depending on this factor.

Hmmm, I don't remember this exist.

When did it get added?

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

There's a lot to say here, so I'm going to reply to the key points people are using to oppose the upgrade (not everything because a lot of it involves stating things ad nauseum).

Higher planes aren't enough to Low 1-C, Madoka Magica is a example of it

"Higher plane" isn't the only thing being used to give the verse Low 1-C. Looking at this detail in isolation from the other respective aspects that demonstrate Low 1-C is an incredibly dishonest tactic to make what's being proposed seem bad. The analogy itself is a false equivalence regardless. Madoka's case of ascending to a "higher plane" is strictly in regard to her conceptual nature when the OP has shown there is obviously more than just that here.

Also, none of this "What about another verse?" unless you can show it was rejected for reasons akin to or greater to the ones provided here. Something not being on the profiles doesn't necessarily mean it got rejected; it could just be a case of negligence.

and ur scan to the characters not being able to see doesnt means nothing, because we directly can see that they are exactly on the same place as the grandfather, which can justify that when someone reaches the chaos force, they become abstract, or maybe even less than it, but none of these things justify a Low 1-C argument, and the context of it pretty much is similar to Stands being able to affect with people but people can't affect/interact with stands

Such a thing does matter when the Chaos Force has statements that would let it transcend the multiverse's space-time. Higher planes aren't contextually such by default, these are characteristics we ascribe to dimensionality typically.

Outside space and time its different than Transcend it

Outside, as a preposition, can refer to transcendence too. Not sure where you got the idea it cannot.

vague things like Beyond space and time aren't enough to it, because the scans are also vague, and as I showed previously, it does not meet the things enough to 5-D

Nothing about the scans posted is vague. For one, the beyond space-time scan is in reference to it being above the multiverse, it's that simple. Pretty easy to accept when there are scans showing how it's described as literally transcending (something you somehow managed to ignore as Mav even pointed out). Secondly, the others are just talking about how it's a superior or inconceivable plane of existence. Saying things are "vague" as a means to discredit them is you literally just trying to dog whistle to people who aren't certain about the context of the panels being used for the upgrade. Describe why they are vague instead of just labeling it as such.

Then could you bring out the supporting evidence? cause just higher plane of exitence and outside of space and time, i don't think it is enough

The supporting evidence is listed in the OP. You guys are focusing on one or two aspects (devoid of context might I add) of this entire upgrade in your entire reply to say it's wrong. The fact that people have to ask all of you to stop doing this is incredibly telling of this issue.

Why i'm not familiar with Sonic, i disagree cause you need more evident than just some Higher Plane of Existence context, cause if we go by this logic, DBH will also get Tier 1

That's a horrible reason to reject a CRT. Saying "it will affect this verse" is literally not an argument. Okay, sure, let's say that it does give DBH Low 1-C? What now, huh? Absolutely nothing because this "point" adds absolutely no substance to this thread, moving on.

Iike i said, i know about transcendence this and that, outside of space and time this and that, i'm not mean to be rude, but that just it, if this is enough for tier 1, then i think a lot of verse will be tier 1. Anyway, i'm here to agree or disagree, just have some opinion regard this upgrade

Once again, looking at something in isolation and being willfully ignorant of other aspects that support the idea. Also, yet another "it will affect more verses!" argument.

pretty sure higher plane is not enough for low 1-C

That's not the entire reason for it to be Low 1-C. Read. the. post.

---

I was originally going to address My area's stuff too, but it's literally just repeating these arguments over and over again or repeating his own point about an incorrect take about site policies. It's somewhat disappointing to see that the bandwagon of reasons to deny this CRT came from people literally just repeating their points ad nauseum, refusing to look at things in a wider context, misrepresenting numerous ideas, or using non-arguments as a way to deny something that most people agree is straightforward.

 

[Ned_the_outer_god]

Hmmm, I don't remember this exist.

When did it get added?

HEre

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Ah, bad comparison then. I’ll remove that part.

Yeah, Ultima hammered in the reality-fiction dichotomy for the main evidence, and transcending space and time as supporting evidence. I cannot argue for BlazBlue, though.

Thank you for pointing this out, gonna try and beef up the justification.

 

[Bernkastelll]

There's a lot to say here, so I'm going to reply to the key points people are using to oppose the upgrade (not everything because a lot of it involves stating things ad nauseum).

"Higher plane" isn't the only thing being used to give the verse Low 1-C. Looking at this detail in isolation from the other respective aspects that demonstrate Low 1-C is an incredibly dishonest tactic to make what's being proposed seem bad. The analogy itself is a false equivalence regardless. Madoka's case of ascending to a "higher plane" is strictly in regard to her conceptual nature when the OP has shown there is obviously more than just that here.

Also, none of this "What about another verse?" unless you can show it was rejected for reasons akin to or greater to the ones provided here. Something not being on the profiles doesn't necessarily mean it got rejected; it could just be a case of negligence.

Such a thing does matter when the Chaos Force has statements that would let it transcend the multiverse's space-time. Higher planes aren't contextually such by default, these are characteristics we ascribe to dimensionality typically.

Outside, as a preposition, can refer to transcendence too. Not sure where you got the idea it cannot.

Nothing about the scans posted is vague. For one, the beyond space-time scan is in reference to it being above the multiverse, it's that simple. Pretty easy to accept when there are scans showing how it's described as literally transcending (something you somehow managed to ignore as Mav even pointed out). Secondly, the others are just talking about how it's a superior or inconceivable plane of existence. Saying things are "vague" as a means to discredit them is you literally just trying to dog whistle to people who aren't certain about the context of the panels being used for the upgrade. Describe why they are vague instead of just labeling it as such.

The supporting evidence is listed in the OP. You guys are focusing on one or two aspects (devoid of context might I add) of this entire upgrade in your entire reply to say it's wrong. The fact that people have to ask all of you to stop doing this is incredibly telling of this issue.

That's a horrible reason to reject a CRT. Saying "it will affect this verse" is literally not an argument. Okay, sure, let's say that it does give DBH Low 1-C? What now, huh? Absolutely nothing because this "point" adds absolutely no substance to this thread, moving on.

Once again, looking at something in isolation and being willfully ignorant of other aspects that support the idea. Also, yet another "it will affect more verses!" argument.

That's not the entire reason for it to be Low 1-C. Read. the. post.

---

I was originally going to address My area's stuff too, but it's literally just repeating these arguments over and over again or repeating his own point about an incorrect take about site policies. It's somewhat disappointing to see that the bandwagon of reasons to deny this CRT came from people literally just repeating their points ad nauseum, refusing to look at things in a wider context, misrepresenting numerous ideas, or using non-arguments as a way to deny something that most people agree is straightforward.

Im too lazy to delete the parts that u only tag me, so, the entire text will appear, again, I already said that I read the scan, it just doesnt match because even transcending isnt enough, and the context is just to a place outside space time

 

[Bernkastelll]

It seems like the counter argument a bulk of opposition is presenting boils down to “outside of space-time doesn’t mean transcendence”.

I also don’t think “outside” should just equate to “transcend”, unless it’s contextually proven as such. Which I’m pretty sure the scans I’ve presented do:

When one enters the Chaos Force they transcend into it, surpassing space and time. Our standards state this on the matter:
Tiering System FAQ

Q: What tier is transcending space and time?​ A: As said above, "transcending space and time" is a very vague statement by itself and can mean multiple things depending on the context in which it is made, as well as how this characteristic is portrayed in the first place. It is perfectly possible for such a statement to mean that a character is simply "untied" from the universe's spacetime, and is thus unaffected by alterations in the timeline and similar meddlings. Likewise, it's not exactly uncommon for time travel (Or any action / process that affects something through different points in time) to be described as "transcending time and space." However, if it is specified that they "transcend space and time" in the sense that they exist on some higher level of reality that is outright superior to a spacetime continuum in nature, then they should be put at Low 1-C, assuming the continuum in question is one comprised of four dimensions. The answer may vary depending on this factor. It should also be noted that simply existing in some alternate state of existence that lacks time and/or space is not really grounds for any tier in particular, as lacking such things does not translate to being superior to them, and would most often overlap with abilities like Acausality or Nonexistent Physiology. A good example of a case like this is Dormammu (Marvel Cinematic Universe), who is stated to exist in a realm "far beyond time," yet never actually displays any superiority over it, and is in fact vulnerable to time-based abilities due to his timeless nature.

Unless I’m missing something, spaces qualitatively superior to space-time quantify for Tier 1.

I can’t find anything on our Tiering System page that states a “reality-fiction difference" is an absolute necessity for a realm to quantify for Low 1-C. Your dissent seems to hinge entirely on this point, but from my experience not all Low 1-C reasoning on the site revolves around “sees X as fiction”.

Ex:

Takamagahara System: Low Complex Multiverse level (Is made with the sole intent of being the replacement for the Master Unit, is capable of controlling the flow of information from the boundary, a realm that transcends the multiverse)

Except that transcending on the context is just outside space and time, it being stated a lot of times won't change nothing here

 

[Planck69]

Let's just wait for staff. The majority seem to agree and now, judgement shall be passed.

 

[Bernkastelll]

Let's just wait for staff. The majority seem to agree and now, judgement shall be passed.

Perhaps

 

[Bernkastelll]

I don't know if these will help but

There's a barrier and a World that think the Archie Sonic world as mere fiction it seems to be

And there's seem to be a Transdimensional Barrier too, and since this elemt is tied to Ken Penders, these Barrier and possibly the real world is also gone by the SGW

I don't know if this will help but hey, it's something worth noticing for 5D Archie Sonic

i dont think so, these IRL humans are 3-D, and reaching to it is also 3-D, but I will use it to argue tier 0 archie sonic outside vsb

 

[Ned_the_outer_god]

i dont think so, these IRL humans are 3-D, and reaching to it is also 3-D, but I will use it to argue tier 0 archie sonic outside vsb

Or 11-A archie sonic depending on your view point >: )

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

judgement shall be passed.

That sounds a little melodramatic don't ya think? Like a certain god llama is about to obliterate someone.

Either way like I already mentioned as well as been highlighted by others on this CRT the jurisdiction clearly meets the VBW standards for 5-D regardless of personal interpretations.

It's up to those who are knowledgeable about those standards to decide and/or if more evidence needs to be provided incase of rebuttals from Cyber/Shreks crew.

Please let's not derail the thread with the same old drawn out nonsense that plagues popular verses CRTs and aim to be fair but concise.

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

I already said that I read the scan, it just doesnt match because even transcending isnt enough

Cool, that doesn't change the fact you were looking at only a specific section of the upgrade and trying to act like that was the only reason so you could deny it. You only didn't look at it in isolation once you were called out on that. Mav has already shown the transcending part as being adequate with the additional context for Low 1-C via site standards.

and the context is just to a place outside space time

We've already been over how that's not a refute. Outside is being used as a preposition, and it can mean to be above or transcendent to something as a preposition. When things like Chaos Emeralds have to manifest in order to be present in their reality, I'm pretty sure the context is explicit enough to assume that definition.