Space-Time? That's Small!..... What now? | Type 2 Beyond Dimensional Existence/1-A Pre-Genesis Archie Sonic and Post Genesis Wave Downgrade

[Ultima_Reality]

Even if it is in reference to "Time doesnt pass for me" doesnt the usage of "Concept of Time" imply The Concept of Time exist

I mean, yeah, "The mental notion of time" obviously exists, but that doesn't mean anything for the purposes of scaling a character who is the source of everything.

Alright maybe that scan wasent the best scan to use, but theres this one saying everything originated from The Source. Also in the same scan it's said to be everything, not just the foundation

Makes no difference, really.

 

[Eseseso]

So...can this be closed?

 

[FaceOff81]

I said the exact opposite. A realm being non-physical and also being referred to as "higher" in some way doesn't fit the bill. Why would it?

If I recall correctly, you said:

Depends entirely on what the "superiority" in question consists of. All that's been shown so far only indicates that the Chaos Force is more powerful than everything else in the cosmology, which is a necessary condition for 1-A but obviously not a sufficient one.

That's why I thought you said it was one of the necessary conditions for being 1-A.
I also recall you saying:

Largely, being 1-A necessitates being of a different nature from anything in a lower reality, and this difference in nature being the cause of your superiority over it (e.g. A realm being aspatial and atemporal, and being portrayed as in some way "vaster" or "larger" than spatiotemporal objects due to that nature). Nothing here in particular suggests as much.

What do you qualify as "vaster" or "larger" in this context in being classified as 1-A let alone Low 1-A?

How exactly would "Is aspatial and atemporal + Big AP feats" help prove 1-A? This is just a non-sequitur.

With what has been accepted in the cosmology so far along with the amount of statements depicting the beings of the Next Evolution and the Chaos Force viewing the concept of time and residing in a plane where time is irrelevant to them along with beings residing in the Chaos Force being able to break reality as a whole, I'd figure they would at least qualify as Low 1-A.

Depends on the exact content of said WoG.

What context and what conent would be acceptable in this case?

The exact statement says that it exists "outside time-space." There is no information there on whether that refers to space and time in general or to the spacetime continuum of the multiverse, as said. "Spacetime" can conceivably refer to both, but in lieu of further context (Which is absent here), we go with the latter reading.

What further exactly and why are you assuming we should go with th elatter reading?

No, not really. A realm being incomprehensible doesn't really mean that it fits the bill for the type of superiority required for 1-A. Why would it? What would said can also be true of anything with basic Type 1 BDE.

But in order for that realm to be "vaster" or "larger" along with being incomprehensible would fit the bill fir 1-A?

 

[FaceOff81]

I mean, yeah, "The mental notion of time" obviously exists, but that doesn't mean anything for the purposes of scaling a character who is the source of everything.

How?

Makes no difference, really.

Why?

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Not that I disagree with Ultima. However, he clearly needs to differentiate and explain better what he means for what does qualify for “superiority” because it looks like it goes both ways unless he’s purposefully cherry-picking.

 

[Brogeefrong]

I mean, yeah, "The mental notion of time" obviously exists, but that doesn't mean anything for the purposes of scaling a character who is the source of everything.

Why? Wouldnt the Source be responsible for Time? Also isnt Mental Notion a more specific thing, while Concept is more General

Makes no difference, really.

I mean it says everything came from the source of all, and I dont see why cant be considered so

And if it's any notable, The Source of All created Maginaryworld which is a Type 1 Concept

 

[Ultima_Reality]

That's why I thought you said it was one of the necessary conditions for being 1-A.

A necessary condition, not a sufficient one.

With what has been accepted in the cosmology so far along with the amount of statements depicting the beings of the Next Evolution and the Chaos Force viewing the concept of time and residing in a plane where time is irrelevant to them along with beings residing in the Chaos Force being able to break reality as a whole, I'd figure they would at least qualify as Low 1-A.

Why would it? The "Concept of time is irrelevant" business is something that has already long been addressed as of no worth, so I'm not sure why it keeps being brought up.

What do you qualify as "vaster" or "larger" in this context in being classified as 1-A let alone Low 1-A?

I already said as much:

It's really something that you'd only get through statements, the vast majority of the time. If the Chaos Force was described as aspatial, atemporal, etc. and there was also a statement analogizing its relationship to normal reality to a size-like one (e.g. It's described as rendering reality as tiny in comparison), that'd be more or less a slam dunk.

And from the BDE page:

Furthermore, keep in mind that Type 2 Beyond-Dimensional Existence (In particular the latter variant) is not simply a combination of a non-dimensional state of existence and greater raw power than all dimensional structures in a cosmology – Though that is a necessary condition to qualify for it, it is not a sufficient one. Instead, the non-dimensional state of existence must be the direct cause of the character/realm's superiority over dimensions. A simple example being voids of nothingness that lack space, time and physicality entirely, but are nonetheless "vaster" than physical reality in some way, with common imagery being the universe as a small object encompassed in such a backdrop.

What context and what conent would be acceptable in this case?

Point me to the WoG statements in question and we'll figure out whether they have anything of interest.

What further exactly and why are you assuming we should go with th elatter reading?

Why exactly would you assume the higher-end reading of the text when the lower-end one is equally plausible? There's nothing indicating that it's referring to spacetime as a general attribute as opposed to the spatiotemporal structure of the multiverse alone.

But in order for that realm to be "vaster" or "larger" along with being incomprehensible would fit the bill fir 1-A?

I don't understand the question. Can you rephrase it?

Why? Wouldnt the Source be responsible for Time? Also isnt Mental Notion a more specific thing, while Concept is more General

I mean it says everything came from the source of all, and I dont see why cant be considered

Yeah, the contention is whether time in general comes from it or just the particular temporal structure of the universe/multiverse.

"A mental notion" is also just what the word "Concept" means.

And if it's any notable, The Source of All created Maginaryworld which is a Type 1 Concept

Can you direct me to scans relating to that?

 

[Livinmeme]

Furthermore, keep in mind that Type 2 Beyond-Dimensional Existence (In particular the latter variant) is not simply a combination of a non-dimensional state of existence and greater raw power than all dimensional structures in a cosmology – Though that is a necessary condition to qualify for it, it is not a sufficient one. Instead, the non-dimensional state of existence must be the direct cause of the character/realm's superiority over dimensions. A simple example being voids of nothingness that lack space, time and physicality entirely, but are nonetheless "vaster" than physical reality in some way, with common imagery being the universe as a small object encompassed in such a backdrop.

You just contradicted yourself, you said that to have BDE2, and outversal you need to be dimensionless, and of greater power than the hierarchy of dimensions, while also being trascendental...Uh...The reasons the Chaos force is 7-D is because it is absolutely transcendental over everything in Sanic cosmology (except the r>f plane whose name I have forgotten), anyways, I agree

 

[Ultima_Reality]

You just contradicted yourself, you said that to have BDE2, and be outversal you need to be dimensionless, and of greater power than the hierarchy of dimensions, while also being trascendental...Uh...The reasons the Chaos force is 7-D is because it is absolutely transcendental over everything in Sanic cosmology

How exactly am I contradicting myself? What I said and what I quoted from the BDE page are basically the exact same thing.

And I mean. I won't lie, if this is the same evidence used for 1-C, then I'd say even that is unwarranted. But regardless, the type of "transcendence" required of 1-A is different from the type required of the lower stuff in Tier 1, so it doesn't matter whether the Chaos Force is accepted as 7-D for the same reasons, really.

 

[Peptocoptr27]

(except the r>f plane whose name I have forgotten), anyways, I agree

Off-Panel

 

[Theuser789]

If this was rejected, then can this be closed? I don't see any progress being done.

 

[McFriesGuy075]

Stop trying to rush the thread's closure, let it finish naturally, there's still things being argued here.

 

[Brogeefrong]

Yeah, the contention is whether time in general comes from it or just the particular temporal structure of the universe/multiverse.

The term "Concept of Time" is used, rather then just Time, at worst I think it should still fall under a Possibly/Likely

Can you direct me to scans relating to that?

This Profile and This blog

 

[Starsprite53]

The term "Concept of Time" is used, rather then just Time, at worst I think it should still fall under a Possibly/Likely

This is misleading because the "concept of time" was used ina different scenerio and context.
Your argument is a clear overreach. This phrase, in reality, doesn't imply any conceptual transcendence over time. When Knuckles apologized for making Mathias wait, and the echidna responded that time is irrelevant, it's more likely an expression of detachment from physical concerns after ascending to the astral plane (because he said he did that in another issue) Rather than what are you trying to argue here, because dis satement reflects a common metaphor used in everyday language to suggest that time no longer holds the same importance for a being who has left behind their physical body.

 

[Brogeefrong]

This is misleading because the "concept of time" was used ina different scenerio and context.
Your argument is a clear overreach. This phrase, in reality, doesn't imply any conceptual transcendence over time. When Knuckles apologized for making Mathias wait, and the echidna responded that time is irrelevant, it's more likely an expression of detachment from physical concerns after ascending to the astral plane (because he said he did that in another issue) Rather than what are you trying to argue here, because dis satement reflects a common metaphor used in everyday language to suggest that time no longer holds the same importance for a being who has left behind their physical body.

I'm not using that statement for Conceptual Transcendence, rather I'm using that scan to prove the Concept of Time is in the cosmology, and instead getting transcendence via the Chaos Force being referred to as superior to everything in the verse

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

I'm not using that statement for Conceptual Transcendence, rather I'm using that scan to prove the Concept of Time is in the cosmology, and instead getting transcendence via the Chaos Force being referred to as superior to everything in the verse

in the cosmology as much as the idea of time flowing and aging exists in the minds of the people