Chainsaw Man discussion thread

[GunshyFever]

Question for you specifically. I've seen your thread regarding on how weakened would Pochita to scale to the full AP of the Bat Devil due to the fact that he can defeat all the hybrids, but this seems to entail that the hybrids > the full AP of the Bat Devil. How is this the case? What did they do?

The idea of the thread is that a select few Mid Tiers and some High Tiers are stronger than the Bat Devil’s full AP. Mid tiers, like Quanxi, Reze and Katana Man, consistently show they’re far above the baseline 8.04 Tons of TNT. For example, Quanxi has blocked attacks from Pochita’s clone and even managed to harm him, which is an impressive feat for her scaling chain considering the clone is way stronger than the Bat Devil and can one shot character's who scale leagues above him as well. Take Reze and Katana Man, both been able to fatally damage a stronger version of Chainsaw Man, who is superior to his pre-training counterpart, who could survive a part of the Bat Devil’s sonic attack, but was damaged so badly that he chose to regenerate. Then there’s Santa Claus in her night form, powered by a piece of flesh from the Darkness Devil and the Blood Devil, whose abilities scale way above the Bat Devil thanks to having the same power source (and probably an even stronger one) as a Weakened Pochita. It all ties back to how fear scaling works in general. Makima scales because she can one-shot a Weakened Pochita, who far out scales the full AP of the blast.

That was the summary of that thread. However, new scaling in the near future will propose that anyone scaling to Post-Training Chainsaw Man will also scale to the full AP of the Bat Devil. Why? Because of Kishibe’s daily and then weekly training sessions, Chainsaw Man went from struggling to take the Bat Devil’s sonic attack head on to being able to tank punches from beings far stronger, like a Darkness-empowered Santa Claus. Santa Claus scales to transformed Quanxi’s arrows, which can pierce through a Weakened Pochita, who in turn, was strong enough to physically snap those arrows like twigs. I’m not going to explain the scaling fully yet, but that’s the basis of the scaling to come.

Also, if the Falling Devil created Multi-Continent levels of gravity fluctuations on Earth, why wouldn't this scale to Makima or Pochita? Pochita is implied to be a devil that's feared more than her, or at least on the same level, and so, shouldn't he have more power than her and thus have Multi-Continent levels of output? Same for Typhoon Devil creating Small City+ storms.

Because it's environmental destruction that doesn't even scale to herself.

And also, Justice Devil reacted to Falling Devil's gravity attacks and gravitational waves are the speed of light. So, would this be relativistic+ something?

I brought this up before but dropped it because I’ve never seen this get accepted on the wiki. Plus, it creates a huge outlier, as a weakened Chainsaw Man would be clocking MFTL calcs from being able to statue the Justice Devil while low on blood, which is just inconsistent with the Hypersonic+ to Sub-Relativistic showings in the series, especially for a mid-tier character, it would be a different story of Pochita did it, since we have reasoning behind him being that fast, but a weakened Chainsaw Man? nah.

 

[ElajRuengies]

Also the fact that the panel of the Justice Devil "reacting" to an incoming attack is just it drooling while staying still.

 

[GunshyFever]

Also the fact that the panel of the Justice Devil "reacting" to an incoming attack is just it drooling while staying still.

Nah, he moved a few inches to the right in an attempt to save himself from the attack going for his head, he succeeded but the attack landed on his guts instead.

 

[ElajRuengies]

Nah, he moved a few inches to the right in an attempt to save himself from the attack going for his head, he succeeded but the attack landed on his guts instead.

Or it's just funky perspective

 

[Aaaaa11112222]

Thank you for the reply, it helped me immensely.

Because it's environmental destruction that doesn't even scale to herself.

But isn't this through "power?" Falling Devil's power is only through environmental destruction, but Pochita's power is only through AP, right?

I brought this up before but dropped it because I’ve never seen this get accepted on the wiki. Plus, it creates a huge outlier, as a weakened Chainsaw Man would be clocking MFTL calcs from being able to statue the Justice Devil while low on blood, which is just inconsistent with the Hypersonic+ to Sub-Relativistic showings in the series, especially for a mid-tier character, it would be a different story of Pochita did it, since we have reasoning behind him being that fast, but a weakened Chainsaw Man? nah.

I see. What about Makima, would it scale to her? And also, is she Sub-Relativistic?

 

[Epiccheev]

landed on his guts

 

[GunshyFever]

Or it's just funky perspective

It works the best considering that if I saw a huge ass blast heading my direction, I would try my best not to get hit, even instinctively. But, it doesn't even seem like he reacted, it's more of an aim dodge, as we see him give to light at her finger's a good stare before he attempted to dodge it in the next panel, but he was obviously too slow.

 

[GunshyFever]

But isn't this through "power?" Falling Devil's power is only through environmental destruction, but Pochita's power is only through AP, right?

Yes, and that power would be her gravity manipulation, she has other form's of "power" like physical power or the "power" of her other abilities, it's not limited to only her environmental destruction. Regarding Pochita's power, his most notable form of "power" is in his ability to erase concepts from existence, but he also possesses alot of physical "power" as well.

 

[ElajRuengies]

I see. What about Makima, would it scale to her? And also, is she Sub-Relativistic?

...Technically speaking if we say that Darkness is Sub-Relativistic by Fear Scaling, then there's an argument for that, but that creates a problem where Part 1 Pochita is faster than her, yet in Part 2 he gets wrecked by the Gun Goddess, when he should be even faster than before.

So no, Makima isn't Sub-Relativistic. Either Darkness is just 10x slower than Aging for some reason, or Makima had plot armor. Either way, she doesn't scale to the Gun Goddess.

 

[GunshyFever]

Part 1 Pochita is faster than her, yet in Part 2 he gets wrecked by the Gun Goddess, when he should be even faster than before.

He was kinda off gaurd and not even looking in the direction of the bullet. Every instance Yoru got a hit on Pochita is because he was off gaurd. Either way, she would end up scaling to it via her reaction speeds and it would simply be on outlier and plothole for Darkenss to be 10x slower than Pochita.

 

[ElajRuengies]

He was kinda off gaurd and not even looking in the direction of the bullet. Every instance Yoru got a hit on Pochita is because he was off gaurd. Either way, she would end up scaling to it via her reaction speeds and it would simply be on outlier and plothole for Darkenss to be 10x slower than Pochita.

Part 2 Pochita definitely doesn't scale to the Gun Goddess's Speed. We get a solid look at the narrative implying what his speed's supposed to be like when Aging says he'll arrive in less than a minute, and taking even ten seconds to cross Japan would still put him well below the Gun Goddess's Intercontinental Sniper Round.

If you want Darkness to be that fast, then fine, but Pochita isn't, even in Part 2.

 

[GunshyFever]

Part 2 Pochita definitely doesn't scale to the Gun Goddess's Speed. We get a solid look at the narrative implying what his speed's supposed to be like when Aging says he'll arrive in less than a minute, and taking even ten seconds to cross Japan would still put him well below the Gun Goddess's Intercontinental Sniper Round.

That's travel speed, that's how fast they can travel. That's the only narrative they can imply because the Gun Goddess doesn't have arm's and legs to fight. Not to mention Pochita is clearly faster than Aging. And if it was the case that Aging was 10x faster, he wouldn't have gotten hit by Pochita here. If someone where to calc this, they would be eligible to use snail speed. Pochita also sliced off his wrists meaning the punch couldn't even reach him initially.

 

[ElajRuengies]

That's travel speed, that's how fast they can travel.

[deep breaths]

That's the only narrative they can imply because the Gun Goddess doesn't have arm's and legs to fight. Not to mention Pochita is clearly faster than Aging. And if it was the case that Aging was 10x faster, he wouldn't have gotten hit by Pochita here. If someone where to calc this, they would be eligible to use snail speed. Pochita also sliced off his wrists meaning the punch couldn't even reach him initially.

If someone were to make a calc based on that scene, Yoru and Katana Man's Quick Draw are as fast as Aging. That scene doesn't mean jack when it comes to speed.

 

[GunshyFever]

If someone were to make a calc based on that scene, Yoru and Katana Man's Quick Draw are as fast as Aging. That scene doesn't mean jack when it comes to speed.

No, it's just the matter that none of them could land a hit on Pochita, some attacked before, some after. We cant just turn a blind eye to the clear speed feat here, hell, that very moment is a testament to Pochita's speed, to just show the reader that he is too fast for his opponents. And even if we didnt go that route, Pochita will always end up scaling to Aging since, both of them are relatively feared and we were also distinctively shown that fear amplifications affect speed as well.

 

[ElajRuengies]

No, it's just the matter that none of them could land a hit on Pochita, some attacked before, some after.

Which makes it even worse for scaling Pochita to Aging stopping the Gun Goddess's shot. Yoru is shown after Aging's been contracted and they start to attack Pochita, and yet despite being a similar distance away, she reaches Pochita at the same time as Aging does, meaning Yoru's  faster than Aging in this scene.

We cant just turn a blind eye to the clear speed feat here, hell, that very moment is a testament to Pochita's speed, to just show the reader that he is too fast for his opponents.

Yeah Pochita's too fast. Doesn't mean that was Aging's full speed.

And even if we didnt go that route, Pochita will always end up scaling to Aging since, both of them are relatively feared and we were also distinctively shown that fear amplifications affect speed as well.

Or Barem was just full of shit.

Granted, Pochita did tear apart Aging in 187, but Darkness puked blood against Makima. Primals are really spongey..

 

[GunshyFever]

Which makes it even worse for scaling Pochita to Aging stopping the Gun Goddess's shot. Yoru is shown after Aging's been contracted and they start to attack Pochita, and yet despite being a similar distance away, she reaches Pochita at the same time as Aging does, meaning Yoru's  faster than Aging in this scene.

Fair

Yeah Pochita's too fast. Doesn't mean that was Aging's full speed.

Fair as well for that scene.

Or Barem was just full of shit.

Sure, if we can prove Barem, who is the constructor of the empowerment of Pochita would make such a claim for no reason, we can disregard it. But why not do that for every statement in the series? let's not cherry pick here.

Edit: I'm sure what Fujimoto did for that statement was completely intentional, considering we didn't even know the Aging Devil or if he was even a Primal Fear at the time.

 

[ElajRuengies]

Sure, if we can prove Barem, who is the constructor of the empowerment of Pochita would make such a claim for no reason, we can disregard it. But why not do that for every statement in the series? let's not cherry pick here.

Technically that was Fami. Admittedly you're right in that there's nothing that can concretely diminish Barem's statement besides that characters aren't omniscient in general.

Aging's best stuff being hax based makes scaling them annoying. They didn't physically stop/destroy the Gun Goddess shot, they stopped time and aged it to dust. They didn't physically stop Pochita, they turned him into a tree.

But also like, Aging made a whole freaking world. It's not too strange to think they blow Yoru out of the water. Which then makes Yoru blowing a whole through Pochita weird, and blah blah blah.

Whatever, it's past 11, I'm going to bed.

 

[GunshyFever]

Technically that was Fami. Admittedly you're right in that there's nothing that can concretely diminish Barem's statement besides that characters aren't omniscient in general.

Aging's best stuff being hax based makes scaling them annoying. They didn't physically stop/destroy the Gun Goddess shot, they stopped time and aged it to dust. They didn't physically stop Pochita, they turned him into a tree.

But also like, Aging made a whole freaking world. It's not too strange to think they blow Yoru out of the water. Which then makes Yoru blowing a whole through Pochita weird, and blah blah blah.

Yeah, it is annoying to think about, that's why I halt myself from thinking too deep until Part 2 ends.

Whatever, it's past 11, I'm going to bed.

12 for me, I'm gonna head to bed as well. Sleep well.

 

[Pearly0nsams]

it would be a different story of Pochita did it, since we have reasoning behind him being that fast, but a weakened Chainsaw Man? nah.

I always thought that part 2 Denji is stronger than part 1 Denji. Especially after fully eating a powerhouse like Control Devil, considering how much stronger human Santa became after eating a piece of DD flesh.

 

[Rez]

Also, if the Falling Devil created Multi-Continent levels of gravity fluctuations on Earth, why wouldn't this scale to Makima or Pochita? Pochita is implied to be a devil that's feared more than her, or at least on the same level, and so, shouldn't he have more power than her and thus have Multi-Continent levels of output? Same for Typhoon Devil creating Small City+ storms.

What, Pochita is not implied to be more feared or even be at the same level of fear as falling, falling is a primal devil devils whose concept is feared by all at a subconscious level, pochita is no where near that he is the devil that other devils fear the most but that doesn't scale him to falling not in terms of fear scaling at least.

Primal's have already been established to be the strongest of the devil's cause of their nature.

 

[ElajRuengies]

What, Pochita is not implied to be more feared or even be at the same level of fear as falling, falling is a primal devil devils whose concept is feared by all at a subconscious level, pochita is no where near that he is the devil that other devils fear the most but that doesn't scale him to falling not in terms of fear scaling at least.

Primal's have already been established to be the strongest of the devil's cause of their nature.

Barem in Ch. 170 explicitly states that Chainsaw Man has become as feared as everyday objects of fear like "sickness and aging." Aging is a Primal Fear, hence this statements puts current Pochita at Primal level, assuming it's correct.

 

[Aaaaa11112222]

...Technically speaking if we say that Darkness is Sub-Relativistic by Fear Scaling,

Wait, why would Darkness and God Goddess be Sub-Relativistic to begin with? Did Yoru and her minions do some crazy shit that I missed?

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

Wait, why would Darkness and God Goddess be Sub-Relativistic to begin with? Did Yoru and her minions do some crazy shit that I missed?

The bullet.

Also I suggest all of you not to take Pochita hitting Aging too literally, because here's the thing:
1: Aging wasn't giving a sh*t (like the whole time)
2: Aging was only trying to "hit", and because of that, it wasn't really trying at all, and that's not even reaction speed either because it's just punching, it wouldn't pull it's punch to dodge Pochita's attack for literally any reason because it's trying to "hit" nor would it's punching speed that most likely wasn't even it trying it's best would necessarily scale anywhere near to it's real reaction speed. Also as we've seen, when you're at mid attacking state, you're likely to not be able to react to a counterattack, it happens all the time in csm unless you're literally blitzing your opponent like Katana man.

 

[GunshyFever]

Wait, why would Darkness and God Goddess be Sub-Relativistic to begin with? Did Yoru and her minions do some crazy shit that I missed?

Chainsaw Man: Yoru Bang Speed and KE

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Rez]

Barem in Ch. 170 explicitly states that Chainsaw Man has become as feared as everyday objects of fear like "sickness and aging." Aging is a Primal Fear, hence this statements puts current Pochita at Primal level, assuming it's correct.

I won't take that statment at face value, considering the fact that aging has show itself to be vastly superior to pochita and that is when it is actively holding back since it wants pochita to eat itself

 

[GunshyFever]

I won't take that statment at face value, considering the fact that aging has show itself to be vastly superior to pochita and that is when it is actively holding back since it wants pochita to eat itself

That's because Aging is a devil with the name of a Primal Fear and Pochita is just feared on that level. It's pretty clear that they are relative is physical power, the only thing aging is superior to Pochita in is his hax, which does not account for a contest of strength.

I'm sure what Fujimoto did for that statement was completely intentional, considering we didn't even know the Aging Devil or if he was even a Primal Fear at the time.

 

[ElajRuengies]

I won't take that statment at face value, considering the fact that aging has show itself to be vastly superior to pochita and that is when it is actively holding back since it wants pochita to eat itself

That's because Aging is a devil with the name of a Primal Fear and Pochita is just feared on that level. It's pretty clear that they are relative is physical power, the only thing aging is superior to Pochita in is his hax, which does not account for a contest of strength.

It's weird because on one hand, Fami's scheme would be really dumb if after she started the Chainsaw Man Zombie Apocalypse, Pochita and Yoru still weren't Primal Fear level when they're supposed to take on Death.

On the other, Fami could've been leaving out some details to Nayuta when she said Yoru might be able to be made to fight Death. And Nayuta came to the conclusion Fami was trying to make Pochita and War more feared than Death on her own, so she might've missed the bull's eye.

On the other-other hand, Gunshy's totally right about this statement-

I'm sure what Fujimoto did for that statement was completely intentional, considering we didn't even know the Aging Devil or if he was even a Primal Fear at the time.

There's no point in namedropping "aging" with regards to fear level, and then revealing the Aging Devil is a Primal Fear, if it was just for a "Sike, gotcha! The statement was wrong!" later. Like, why even be that specific to begin with?

On the other-other-other hand, Pochita being physically superior to Aging, and Aging only having hax over Pochita is still sorta weird, because then that contradicts Yoru's statement about her strength- not power but strength- being no match for Aging Devil's. And while Yoru could just be stupid (very likely honestly), it seems like Aging deadass created its own separate world that isn't a mental construct, but a physical place, as Devil's can be puked up in there and blood from the tree people heals Pochita in reality.

TL;DR: Gunshy's got the right idea in waiting for Part 2 to end to see what's up.

 

[ElajRuengies]

In honor of Reze's plot revelance.

 

[Aaaaa11112222]

Chainsaw Man: Yoru Bang Speed and KE

vsbattles.fandom.com

Why would Pochita or other characters scale to this via reaction timing? Isn't this just an attack speed feat?

 

[DrGreyman]

Why would Pochita or other characters scale to this via reaction timing? Isn't this just an attack speed feat?

as the bullet was flying in, Pochita was fast enough to sense something coming and turn around with a confused expression before getting absolutely blasted

so ehhh idk, he visibly turned his head at least
and of course Old Age fully reacted to it and timestopped or whatever right before it hit

 

[Pearly0nsams]

Why would Pochita or other characters scale to this via reaction timing? Isn't this just an attack speed feat?

Because they reacted it?

Aging Devil reacts and stops the attack along with the owl

 

[ElajRuengies]

Because they reacted it?

Aging Devil reacts and stops the attack along with the owl

Actually Yoru's a potoo

 

[Aaaaa11112222]

I brought this up before but dropped it because I’ve never seen this get accepted on the wiki. Plus, it creates a huge outlier, as a weakened Chainsaw Man would be clocking MFTL calcs from being able to statue the Justice Devil while low on blood, which is just inconsistent with the Hypersonic+ to Sub-Relativistic showings in the series, especially for a mid-tier character, it would be a different story of Pochita did it, since we have reasoning behind him being that fast, but a weakened Chainsaw Man? nah.

For this again, can't you argue that Denji had immensely grew in speed ever since the previous feats he's done in the manga, like all the hypersonic+ ones? There hasn't been any attack that's calculated or stated to be hypersonic or above and Denji struggled to react to it or failed to react to in the same arc where the Justice Devil reacted to the beam, right?

 

[Pearly0nsams]

it's almost like attack speed statued yoru

 

[ElajRuengies]

For this again, can't you argue that Denji had immensely grew in speed ever since the previous feats he's done in the manga, like all the hypersonic+ ones? There hasn't been any attack that's calculated or stated to be hypersonic or above and Denji struggled to react to it or failed to react to in the same arc where the Justice Devil reacted to the beam, right?

Because Part 2 Denji being thousands of times faster than Part 1 Denji for no reason would just be absurdly stupid.

Not to mention, we have stated timeframes and distances for Top Tiers (mostly the Gun Devil) that show where the high end of speed for the verse is, and it's nowhere near lightspeed.

Also also, there's nothing stating that Falling's attack is a gravitational wave when it just looks like a glowy energy beam.

 

[Epiccheev]

Ah yes, super edge murder mini Gojo, the being that primal devils fear most.

 

[DrGreyman]

honestly i'm done trying to comprehend what the Chainsawfolk sub is going through
I think they've gone mad from reze withdrawals

 

[Epiccheev]

Pochita: We need someone who can put a hit on a primordial devil, and i happen to know one devil...
Who's quite the "Hit"ler.

 

[DrGreyman]

Honestly
im hoping pochita dredges up literally any other devil than octopus
it would be infinitely more interesting to see yoru get like, 20 powerups in a row by ww2, the nuke, and that bit of yoru pochita bit off all get reborn at once
and I don't want to see him again anytime soon

 

[GunshyFever]

Because Part 2 Denji being thousands of times faster than Part 1 Denji for no reason would just be absurdly stupid.

Not to mention, we have stated timeframes and distances for Top Tiers (mostly the Gun Devil) that show where the high end of speed for the verse is, and it's nowhere near lightspeed.

Also also, there's nothing stating that Falling's attack is a gravitational wave when it just looks like a glowy energy beam.

To add another layer of inconsistent, that same Denji is at his weakest.