Cell is getting nerfed. (Dragon Ball)

[Damage3245]

Because Goku can do also do Kamehameha.

The Father-Son Kamehameha was also amped by Gohan's rage. Goku wouldn't necessarily be able to produce a Kamehameha as strong.


I think we're quibbling at this point. DDM has indicated he's okay with the proposal, so the main change can go ahead @Nullflowerblush

 

[TiltedFN]

No I'm fine with him being stronger than Gohan's full power state pre Kamehameha
I'm just questioning why are we assuming the Kamehameha was being referenced

Why does it have to be referenced? Why can't it just be gohan and whatever he can throw out?

 

[RedReaper616]

SSJ2 Gohan was repeatedly stated to be superior to cell but would've died to his damn semi-perfect self destruct, and Goku (who's stronger than that same Semi-Perfect Cell) died from it too

…
Uh, dude, Semi-Perfect Cell’s self-destruct would’ve been effectively worthless. The problem is it was gonna annihilate the entire planet, which, you know, as established by the previous Saga the Saiyans need to breathe. Hell, Perfect Cell was gonna destroy the planet with a blast and Gohan didn’t care about that level of power.

 

[KingTempest]

Why does it have to be referenced? Why can't it just be gohan and whatever he can throw out?

Vegeta in base is the strongest saiyan in the saiyan saga yet Goku has stronger moves than him
It's the matter of "this isn't supported".
It's not like we still have power levels, we're working completely off of statements and guesswork

…
Uh, dude, Semi-Perfect Cell’s self-destruct would’ve been effectively worthless. The problem is it was gonna annihilate the entire planet, which, you know, as established by the previous Saga the Saiyans need to breathe. Hell, Perfect Cell was gonna destroy the planet with a blast and Gohan didn’t care about that level of power.

I'm not about to argue with you but this is quite literally entirely comprised of headcanon on how it would've went down

 

[MeiouHades]

I'm not about to argue with you but this is quite literally entirely comprised of headcanon on how it would've went down

If this is your way of saying that you want split durability, or sub-planetary durability for SSJ2 Gohan and Goku, you can make a CRT on that

 

[RedReaper616]

How is it Headcanon?

Cell outright says the Planet will be no more. Cell tries to destroy the planet to “win” before this as Perfect Cell. In fact, Cell outright states “he’s stronger than me, but it doesn’t mean I LOSE.” DIRECTLY COMMUNICATING to the audience that his Planet Destroying Maneuver (in his vastly more powerful form) is NOT about overpowering Gohan. It’s about destroying the planet, and then in effect removing Gohan without having to be more powerful (and considering the circumstances, this is literally likely an identical strategy in his Semi-Perfect Form).

Even other characters who could have easily creamed Semi-Perfect Cell, like Vegeta and Trunks, could do nothing. Not because the blast would overpower them, but because the EARTH would be doomed.

 

[CloverDragon03]

How is it Headcanon?

Cell outright says the Planet will be no more. Cell tries to destroy the planet to “win” before this as Perfect Cell. In fact, Cell outright states “he’s stronger than me, but it doesn’t mean I LOSE.” DIRECTLY COMMUNICATING to the audience that his Planet Destroying Maneuver (in his vastly more powerful form) is NOT about overpowering Gohan. It’s about destroying the planet, and then in effect removing Gohan without having to be more powerful.

Even other characters who could have easily creamed Semi-Perfect Cell, like Vegeta and Trunks, could no nothing. Not because the blast would overpower them, but because the EARTH would be doomed.

I'd say this is true for SSJ2 Gohan, but Vegeta and Trunks were weaker than Goku, so if Cell's Self-Destruction killed Goku, it most definitely would've killed Vegeta and Trunks

 

[RedReaper616]

I'd say this is true for SSJ2 Gohan, but Vegeta and Trunks were weaker than Goku, so if Cell's Self-Destruction killed Goku, it most definitely would've killed Vegeta and Trunks

I meant killing Cell. Like, they could’ve blasted him to bits and been done with it (had Cell not been in Self-Destruct Mode). That said, true, Goku DID die, but it was after fighting a Cell Jr. (and beaten down into the ground almost unable to move) and not getting a heal post his initial Cell fight if I recall correctly, so it’s dubious to count that against them.

 

[KingTempest]

If this is your way of saying that you want split durability, or sub-planetary durability for SSJ2 Gohan and Goku, you can make a CRT on that

All because they mention the planet being destroyed and somebody dying to that doesn't mean that they're sub-planet level
SSJ2 Gohan was scared of destroying the planet with his Kamehameha, does that mean everybody weaker than him is Sub-Planet level?

Nobody is saying that bs, don't put words in my mouth. I'm saying that "stronger" ≠ "stronger than everything I can muster"

How is it Headcanon?

Cell outright says the Planet will be no more. Cell tries to destroy the planet to “win” before this as Perfect Cell. In fact, Cell outright states “he’s stronger than me, but it doesn’t mean I LOSE.” DIRECTLY COMMUNICATING to the audience that his Planet Destroying Maneuver (in his vastly more powerful form) is NOT about overpowering Gohan. It’s about destroying the planet, and then in effect removing Gohan without having to be more powerful (and considering the circumstances, this is literally likely an identical strategy in his Semi-Perfect Form).

So headcanon.
You're tying "earth will be destroyed" to "they would suffocate" when nothing says that. All that's implied is that they'd die one way or another

Even other characters who could have easily creamed Semi-Perfect Cell, like Vegeta and Trunks, could do nothing. Not because the blast would overpower them, but because the EARTH would be doomed.

But Goku died to the explosion right, and he's the 2nd strongest person there

 

[RedReaper616]

So headcanon.
You're tying "earth will be destroyed" to "they would suffocate" when nothing says that. All that's implied is that they'd die one way or another

Cell: I literally can’t overpower them, so my strat to win is destroying the planet. {Similar to a previous antagonist, (Frieza), who establishes Saiyans cannot breathe. As it is literally about him unable to overpower the max it is not about his power killing them—Living one other option. Suffocation}.
You: Yeah nah, that’s Headcanon.

But Goku died to the explosion right, and he's the 2nd strongest person there

Again, after he fought Cell initially (and was nearly completely tired out), then fought a Cell Jr. {with equal power to Cell} (who beat him so hard he could barely move), he then died to this attack. Yes.

 

[KingTempest]

Cell: I literally can’t overpower them, so my strat to win is destroying the planet. {Similar to a previous antagonist, (Frieza), who establishes Saiyans cannot breathe. As it is literally about him unable to overpower the max it is not about his power killing them—Living one other option. Suffocation}.
You: Yeah nah, that’s Headcanon.

Cell: I'm weaker than them, so I'll kill myself in order to kill them
"I can't beat them" ≠ "Everything in my arsenal hits weaker than him"

Again, after he fought Cell initially (and was nearly completely tired out), then fought a Cell Jr. {with equal power to Cell} (who beat him so hard he could barely move), he then died to this attack. Yes.

https://media.**********.net/attachments/863171196035661834/1141487301030072441/Screen_Shot_2023-08-16_at_5.41.06_PM.png?width=1841&height=1005

 

[Axxtentacle]

I meant killing Cell. Like, they could’ve blasted him to bits and been done with it (had Cell not been in Self-Destruct Mode). That said, true, Goku DID die, but it was after fighting a Cell Jr. (and beaten down into the ground almost unable to move) and not getting a heal post his initial Cell fight if I recall correctly, so it’s dubious to count that against them.

Making an assumption like "he didn't get healed" and just running with it instead of looking at the source material when arguing about the source material is a WILD way to go about arguing this. I know it's not related to the CRT but c'mon man that's one of the only things you can do to basically confirm you're biased towards this to an unreasonable extent.

Though I will say, Goku and Perfect Cell are supposed to be comparable to the point they can fight for an extended period of time without any real damage permanent damage from physical hits, right? Doesn't Goku then use a relatively normal Kamehameha and blow Cell almost in half? Kamehamehas obviously don't scale to base stats. A lot of the ki attacks in the verse are stronger than base attacks because that's the point. They're supposed to be. "I condensed my ki into a bigger attack to do more damage than I could with a punch" is the premise of ki blasts in general. It makes sense that using all of your energy in a single attack is a higher tier than you.

 

[RedReaper616]

Cell: I'm weaker than them, so I'll kill myself in order to kill them
"I can't beat them" ≠ "Everything in my arsenal hits weaker than him"

By this logic Daimao Piccolo shouldn’t scale above Max Power Roshi.

https://media.**********.net/attachments/863171196035661834/1141487301030072441/Screen_Shot_2023-08-16_at_5.41.06_PM.png?width=1841&height=1005

I forgot Gohan gave Trunks the Senzu Beans to heal everyone again.

Making an assumption like "he didn't get healed" and just running with it instead of looking at the source material when arguing about the source material is a WILD way to go about arguing this. I know it's not related to the CRT but c'mon man that's one of the only things you can do to basically confirm you're biased towards this to an unreasonable extent.

I wasn’t making an assumption to run with, because usually my memory is pretty good on these matters. Such as literally earlier in the thread where I referenced me talking about Genki in the Tien thread (without linking it there) because I could trust my memory. Whilst it’s not foolproof (obviously, as you just saw), it’s not “unwavering amounts of bias.” It’s…someone being human and able to get things wrong.

If my jump was vast, yours is astronomical.

 

[KingTempest]

By this logic Daimao Piccolo shouldn’t scale above Max Power Roshi.

By this logic you should stop bringing in scenarios that don't matter, because I don't care about King Piccolo

I forgot Gohan gave Trunks the Senzu Beans to heal everyone again.

Yeah he did, and then everybody did nothing but watch the fight afterwards

How do you think he went from "I can barely stand" to "I can fly and teleport across the universe"

 

[Axxtentacle]

I wasn’t making an assumption to run with, because usually my memory is pretty good on these matters. Such as literally earlier in the thread where I referenced me talking about Genki in the Tien thread (without linking it there) because I could trust my memory. Whilst it’s not foolproof (obviously, as you just saw), it’s not “unwavering amounts of bias.” It’s…someone being human and able to get things wrong.

If my jump was vast, yours is astronomical.

I trust my memory on things as well. But I like to confirm what I remember before I make arguments about it because it's safer for the argument and doesn't harm credibility. My jump isn't anywhere near astronomical. You just didn't do what you should've done.

 

[RedReaper616]

By this logic you should stop bringing in scenarios that don't matter, because I don't care about King Piccolo

They’re literally identical scenarios though-?

Yeah he did, and then everybody did nothing but watch the fight afterwards


How do you think he went from "I can barely stand" to "I can fly and teleport across the universe"

Willpower, considering Goku has done similar before, honestly.

 

[Damage3245]

By this logic Daimao Piccolo shouldn’t scale above Max Power Roshi.

Don't tempt me.

 

[KingTempest]

They’re literally identical scenarios though-?

And the issue is that it's a scenario that isn't tied into this thread at all

Because now if I say "he should", you're gonna try to say "how do you believe A but you don't believe B"
And if I say "he shouldn't", you're gonna derail the thread about how I don't think he scales and then it'll be "King Piccolo vs Max Power Kamehameha"

This is about Cell, don't talk about others

 

[RedReaper616]

I trust my memory on things as well. But I like to confirm what I remember before I make arguments about it because it's safer for the argument and doesn't harm credibility. My jump isn't anywhere near astronomical. You just didn't do what you should've done.

And you do this 100% of the time with no mistakes ever? EVER? You can literally scroll up and see me sourcing things as well. Me not doing it once because I trust my memory is not nearly enough evidence to go “You’re unreasonably biased.”

(Especially since I’ve openly conceded to points before or various threads, or openly stated myself neutral on the Cosmology Thread because I don’t care that much. You’re taking one instance to create a label of extreme connotations Vs me making a flawed recollection based on not remembering a single panel from a story spanning a generation with 4 entries, a side manga, several movies, etc.)

 

[KingTempest]

Can yall please take that to the walls or something

 

[RedReaper616]

Don't tempt me.

Damn, I’m giving him ideas…

 

[AguilaR202]

I dunno I could see splitting AP only ending with far more inflated numbers because scaling makes ki attacks anywhere from 2-3x times at bare minimum above physical stats and there are a ton of scenes where characters just slap away ki attacks effortlessly and would also have access to those ki attacks as well to amp their stats.

 

[StekFence]

Why does it have to be referenced? Why can't it just be gohan and whatever he can throw out?

I mean, the father son is a pretty situational and non repeatable amp. Assuming that vegeta is referring to it when he just references gohan doesn’t make as much sense to me compared with referring to just gohan. That’s how I see it anyways.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

They’re literally identical scenarios though-?

No, they are not.

Roshi states that "even younger", he was insignificant to Piccolo ("even younger" implies he was stronger then, which the Daizenshuu 2 implies, too), and that, in the present, even if he, Goku, and Tien banded together, there was zero chance of victory.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Don't tempt me.

“Don’t tempt me to downgrade something because you brought it up” isn’t what I’d call the best mentality

 

[Damage3245]

“Don’t tempt me to downgrade something because you brought it up” isn’t what I’d call the best mentality

That post was a joke; not a reflection of any actual plans. I'm not big on humor in CRTs though so I'll refrain from making similar posts in future.

 

[KingNanaya]

I'm not big on humor in CRTs though so I'll refrain from making similar posts in future.

 

[Monkey_Dunno]

El manga legendario states that. If anyone knows Spanish they can help. I think it says the kamehameha not thrown only by Gohan.

Hola.

Gohan's left arm is injured and his energy has been reduced to less than a half, but Goku helps him from the Afterlife and overpowers Cell's Kamehame-ha with a more powerful one. This symbolic scene summarizes Dragon Ball's essence. On one side, we have the clash between two Kamehame-ha, the most emblematic technique; on another, a foe who's a mix of all of Goku's enemies. When father and son fire the Kamehame-ha, it’s not just Gohan who shots. Vegeta's reaction is worth noticing, who at the end, summoning strength through fatigue, fires a kikoha at Cell. He was a great contribution, as he managed to make Cell drop his guard.

 

[MeiouHades]

That post was a joke; but damn am I unfunny

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Quit being a twat.

Anyway,

"Hang on, Gohan!!! Hang on!!! You haven't used all your power yet!!! Let it rip!!!"; "I'm doing my best!!! I... can't do anymore..."; "You're holding back!! Trying not to destroy the planet!!! Let go!!! The Dragon Balls can fix it!!!"

---

"Hang on! Hang on, Gohan! You ain’t putting out all your power yet! Make your power explode!"; "I’m doing it at full force…! Any more than this is…"; "Somewhere in your mind you’re thinking of the damage to the Earth! Don’t worry about it! We’ll undo the damage with the dragonballs!"

"Cell tried to blow away the entire Earth, but a heartbroken Gohan is encouraged by Goku in the afterlife, and in his Kamehameha struggle with Cell he puts forth his strongest power."

"During the battle with Cell, he won with a Kamehameha that had all his might behind it."

"It looked like Gohan was being pushed back by the Kamehameha that Cell fired, but with Goku's advice he unleashes all his ki in one burst!"

 

[RedReaper616]

No, they are not.

Roshi states that "even younger", he was insignificant to Piccolo ("even younger" implies he was stronger then, which the Daizenshuu 2 implies, too), and that, in the present, even if he, Goku, and Tien banded together, there was zero chance of victory.

Uh, the example was about a character he couldn’t beat with any of his abilities short one maneuver he specifically had that sidestepped their superior power level—Mafuba, Destroying the Planet—And then using that logic to then dictate what other characters in response to that can or cannot do. The examples are incredibly similar.

 

[CloverDragon03]

That post was a joke; not a reflection of any actual plans. I'm not big on humor in CRTs though so I'll refrain from making similar posts in future.

No I’m just being a dumbass that’s all

 

[KingTempest]

How you kill a joke that was never alive

 

[Deagonx]

KT and Damage make the most sense to me here

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

I feel like "borrowing power from goku" just refers to it in a symbolic sense and inheriting his father's will to never give up, rather than literally using goku's power, that doesn't really make a lot of sense.

I feel like your judgement on a clear literal statement changes based on what it's proposing... It's a clear statement, we won't make theories about it

 

[KingTempest]

I'm assuming nobody in Cell Saga scales to the calc in the OP other than Cell's Kamehameha and Gohan's Father Son Kamehameha?

 

[Omegabronic]

I'm assuming nobody in Cell Saga scales to the calc in the OP other than Cell's Kamehameha and Gohan's Father Son Kamehameha?

speaking of this, if the kamehameha was done with goku helping, then it should be noted on the profile that gohan can't do this kamehameha without goku's assistance

 

[Nullflowerblush]

-snip-

 

[KingTempest]

speaking of this, if the kamehameha was done with goku helping, then it should be noted on the profile that gohan can't do this kamehameha without goku's assistance

Good point

 

[Axxtentacle]

Is it? Goku just helped him achieve his full power. All things considered, Gohan still is an undertrained teenager. It might just be an issue of experience that Goku was trying to help him overcome.