Cell is getting nerfed. (Dragon Ball)

[CloverDragon03]

I assume the interpretation here is that the Father-Son Kamehameha is formed from SSJ Goku + 1/2 SSJ2 Gohan, which would be less than a full-power SSJ2 Gohan?

 

[Damage3245]

I assume the interpretation here is that the Father-Son Kamehameha is formed from SSJ Goku + 1/2 SSJ2 Gohan, which would be less than a full-power SSJ2 Gohan?

The Father-Son Kamehameha is also stated to be the most powerful Kamehameha at the time though (possibly through Gohan rage amp), so I wouldn't rate it less than full-power SSJ2 Gohan. (Which makes sense since Gohan's earlier Kamehameha didn't fully destroy Cell, but the Father-Son Kamehameha fully destroyed Revived Cell)

The Buu Saga characters like SSJ2 Goku, Vegeta, etc are still going to be 4-B though even if they don't directly scale.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I was mainly just asking if that's what the interpretation was. SSJ2 Gohan after his transformation does do a Kamehameha that easily overpowers Cell, so the Father-Son Kamehameha would be superior to that

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

I assume the interpretation here is that the Father-Son Kamehameha is formed from SSJ Goku + 1/2 SSJ2 Gohan, which would be less than a full-power SSJ2 Gohan?

Yeah because we know Gohan had half ki and was helped by Goku and because we know nothing about Goku I figured let's just give him the full ssj Ki quantity.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

The Father-Son Kamehameha is also stated to be the most powerful Kamehameha at the time though (possibly through Gohan rage amp), so I wouldn't rate it less than full-power SSJ2 Gohan. (Which makes sense since Gohan's earlier Kamehameha didn't fully destroy Cell, but the Father-Son Kamehameha fully destroyed Revived Cell)

The Buu Saga characters like SSJ2 Goku, Vegeta, etc are still going to be 4-B though even if they don't directly scale.

It just seems weird for them not to scale to it despite Gohan having barely tapped into the form meanwhile Goku and Vegeta had both mastered it and Vegeta had the majin amp on top of that.

 

[RedReaper616]

I assume the interpretation here is that the Father-Son Kamehameha is formed from SSJ Goku + 1/2 SSJ2 Gohan, which would be less than a full-power SSJ2 Gohan?

Wouldn’t it be base Goku? SSJ was just tacked on by the Anime.

 

[MeiouHades]

Yeah:

Isn’t Vegeta saying that Goku SSJ2 is stronger than Gohan SSJ2 completely enough justification to scale them to it fully? Given that Vegeta did witness the Father-Son Kamehameha himself. His statement about Goku seems to be without any reservations

 

[AguilaR202]

That's one interpretation yeah, but the databook provides two statements that could also be interpreted very literally and the manga visual of Goku backs up that he is contributing energy.

Doesn’t really change anything here, because Base Gokus potential contribution is going to be extremely low when compared to SS2 Gohan.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Nah we should still take Goku as a Ssj. If he broke the rules of the Afterlife there ain't a way he isn't giving everything.

Isn’t Vegeta saying that Goku SSJ2 is stronger than Gohan SSJ2 completely enough justification to scale them to it fully? Given that Vegeta did witness the Father-Son Kamehameha himself. His statement about Goku seems to be without any reservations

But yes that would be enough proof even without Vegeta having personally witnessed that kamehameha. Do you by any chance have that scan on hand?

 

[pineappleman]

Yeah:

Oh neat who's gonna make the cell saga universal range Goku CRT?

 

[AguilaR202]

Nah we should still take Goku as a Ssj. If he broke the rules of the Afterlife there ain't a way he isn't giving everything.

But yes that would be enough proof even without Vegeta having personally witnessed that kamehameha. Do you by any chance have that scan on hand?

We are not going to take Goku as a SS1 when he is literally drawn to be in base, and even SS1 scales massively below SS2 Gohan at that point , his power even as a SS1 is quite literally not even a tenth of Gohans SS2.

 

[MeiouHades]

Nah we should still take Goku as a Ssj. If he broke the rules of the Afterlife there ain't a way he isn't giving everything.

But yes that would be enough proof even without Vegeta having personally witnessed that kamehameha. Do you by any chance have that scan on hand?

Edit: Now I can’t tell if he was referring to current Gohan (who’s weaker) or Cell saga Gohan

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

We are not going to take Goku as a SS1 when he is literally drawn to be in base, and even SS1 scales massively below SS2 Gohan at that point , his power even as a SS1 is quite literally not even a tenth of Gohans SS2.

Isn't a ssj2 just 2 times ssj1? Also yes at least for me that scan is enough. Problem is we can't be sure it's referring to past or present Gohan but he should scale above him due to all the training done.

 

[AguilaR202]

Isn't a ssj2 just 2 times ssj1?

Nope, at least for Gohan he scales above FP Cells buff state which is a 10x amp and even Cell at full power is too much for Goku.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

That's what I remember reading in the past. I think it was in the super exciting guide. But also since the manga shows base goku then yeah we go by base Goku's ki which would be much much lower.

Edit: Now I can’t tell if he was referring to current Gohan (who’s weaker) or Cell saga Gohan

That was my problem as well yes.

 

[Omegabronic]

That's what I remember reading in the past. I think it was in the super exciting guide. But also since the manga shows base goku then yeah we go by base Goku's ki which would be much much lower.


That was my problem as well yes.

we currently don't accept that multiplier here

 

[MeiouHades]

That was my problem as well yes.

The anime makes it much clearer that he’s taking about Cell saga Gohan. Are we allowed the use the anime in rare cases where the manga is unclear?

 

[KingTempest]

no

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Do I really have to search El manga legendario?

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

Yeah:

I’m pretty sure the manga and anime make it pretty clear that Goku gave Gohan the motivation to do it, but if we have 2 interpretations.

then this scan should be enough

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

That does change the matter. Where is that from?

 

[RedReaper616]

Is there any statement that goku gave energy? Always thought Goku's voice just hyped him up.

Goku hyping him up in itself is giving energy, according to Toriyama. Genki:


“Energy, Courage, and Right-Mindedness — The word ‘energy’ [genki] is well-known, but if one asks if you do not have energy if you have even one sickness [byōki], it is difficult to come up with an answer. There are people who are healthy yet do not have any energy, and there are people who are sick, yet full of energy. Plus, even among people who have roughly the same power, for example, there were people who gritted their teeth and stood their ground when Demon King Piccolo attacked them, yet there were also people who trembled and fled. Thinking about it this way, perhaps you will understand that a variety of different ‘Ki’ are indispensable in battle. In the world of Chinese martial arts, exemplified by T’ai-chi Ch’uan, kitraining and control is given great importance.

In Dragon Ball, the dark mage Bobbidi invented a machine that measures and absorbs ki, but current science cannot measure ki levels or store it anywhere. However, when someone cheers you on, you can ‘receive energy and courage [yūki]’ from them. ‘Ki’ is something that cannot be seen with the eyes, yet it is there.”

So you could reason the answer is both. Goku only encouraged Gohan -> Grants Gohan Genki/Confidence/Right-Mindness -> Amplifies Gohan’s Power + Releases More of Gohan’s Latent Power (as he was explicitly holding back out of fear).

 

[Damage3245]

then this scan should be enough

The source of that being what?

 

[Damage3245]

Goku hyping him up in itself is giving energy, according to Toriyama. Genki:


“Energy, Courage, and Right-Mindedness — The word ‘energy’ [genki] is well-known, but if one asks if you do not have energy if you have even one sickness [byōki], it is difficult to come up with an answer. There are people who are healthy yet do not have any energy, and there are people who are sick, yet full of energy. Plus, even among people who have roughly the same power, for example, there were people who gritted their teeth and stood their ground when Demon King Piccolo attacked them, yet there were also people who trembled and fled. Thinking about it this way, perhaps you will understand that a variety of different ‘Ki’ are indispensable in battle. In the world of Chinese martial arts, exemplified by T’ai-chi Ch’uan, kitraining and control is given great importance.

In Dragon Ball, the dark mage Bobbidi invented a machine that measures and absorbs ki, but current science cannot measure ki levels or store it anywhere. However, when someone cheers you on, you can ‘receive energy and courage [yūki]’ from them. ‘Ki’ is something that cannot be seen with the eyes, yet it is there.”

So you could reason the answer is both. Goku only encouraged Gohan -> Grants Gohan Genki/Confidence/Right-Mindness -> Amplifies Gohan’s Power + Releases More of Gohan’s Latent Power (as he was explicitly holding back out of fear).

Thanks; that settles it for me.

 

[RedReaper616]

Thanks; that settles it for me.

Although irrelevant, since you’re here, this is also what I was referencing in the Tien thread when it came to Master Roshi. By making Tien’s right mindedness (belief in self) waver, he made Tien “weaker.” (Just to clarify).

 

[MeiouHades]

T

Goku hyping him up in itself is giving energy, according to Toriyama. Genki:


“Energy, Courage, and Right-Mindedness — The word ‘energy’ [genki] is well-known, but if one asks if you do not have energy if you have even one sickness [byōki], it is difficult to come up with an answer. There are people who are healthy yet do not have any energy, and there are people who are sick, yet full of energy. Plus, even among people who have roughly the same power, for example, there were people who gritted their teeth and stood their ground when Demon King Piccolo attacked them, yet there were also people who trembled and fled. Thinking about it this way, perhaps you will understand that a variety of different ‘Ki’ are indispensable in battle. In the world of Chinese martial arts, exemplified by T’ai-chi Ch’uan, kitraining and control is given great importance.

In Dragon Ball, the dark mage Bobbidi invented a machine that measures and absorbs ki, but current science cannot measure ki levels or store it anywhere. However, when someone cheers you on, you can ‘receive energy and courage [yūki]’ from them. ‘Ki’ is something that cannot be seen with the eyes, yet it is there.”

So you could reason the answer is both. Goku only encouraged Gohan -> Grants Gohan Genki/Confidence/Right-Mindness -> Amplifies Gohan’s Power + Releases More of Gohan’s Latent Power (as he was explicitly holding back out of fear).

Thats still Gohan’s Ki then. Goku is helping him tap into power he already possesses, which ties in perfectly well with the whole premise of this encounter

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

That does change the matter. Where is that from?

The source of that being what?

A guide called DB forever

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Yeah seems like Goku's speech just released his inhibitions. So the kamehameha should scale to everyone Ssj2 and above for having a full ki as that was Gohan's half.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Yeah seems like Goku's speech just released his inhibitions. So the kamehameha should scale to everyone Ssj2 and above for having a full ki as that was Gohan's half.

The Kamehameha scaling far above the user's normal power is literally what this entire thread is based upon.

 

[KingTempest]

The Kamehameha scaling far above the user's normal power is literally what this entire thread is based upon.

They kinda quite literally do not care whatsoever

 

[MeiouHades]

The Kamehameha scaling far above the user's normal power is literally what this entire thread is based upon.

Thats not the conversation anymore. The conservation is about whether SSJ Goku and Vegeta scale to or above this Kamehameha

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Thats not the conversation anymore. The conservation is about whether SSJ Goku and Vegeta scale to or above this Kamehameha

Ssj 2 but yes. Also if they should scale at their strongest not their basic state of course. Just some people like jumping to conclusions.

 

[MeiouHades]

Ssj 2 but yes. Also if they should scale at their strongest not their basic state of course. Just some people like jumping to conclusions.

I don’t see what indication we have that only at their strongest would they scale to Father-Son Kamehameha. What do the scaling chains for SSJ2 Goku and Vegeta look like compared to Cell saga characters? That’s the only way we can decide

 

[CloverDragon03]

Why would regular SSJ Goku and Vegeta in the Buu Saga would scale? The only indication of scaling is for their SSJ2 forms, where Vegeta says Goku's SSJ2 form is stronger than Gohan's

 

[MeiouHades]

Why would regular SSJ Goku and Vegeta in the Buu Saga would scale? The only indication of scaling is for their SSJ2 forms, where Vegeta says Goku's SSJ2 form is stronger than Gohan's

I’m not saying their SSJ forms would scale. I’m asking why only their strongest attacks in their SSJ2 states would scale. If Vegeta is referring to Cell saga Gohan with his statement, then by merely seeing Goku power up to SSJ2 and confirmimg without reservation that he’s stronger, indicates to me that they might scale to it normally as SSJ2s and not just with their strongest attacks.

 

[KingTempest]

Question
Why wouldn't "stronger than SSJ2 Gohan" just mean "stronger than SSJ2 Gohan" and not "stronger than anything SSJ2 Gohan can muster"

SSJ2 Gohan was repeatedly stated to be superior to cell but would've died to his damn semi-perfect self destruct, and Goku (who's stronger than that same Semi-Perfect Cell) died from it too

Idk why it wouldn't just reference that specific form

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Nah he could be talking about goha's full powered state before amassing ki for an attack as this would still mean his attack would be above gohan's.

 

[KingTempest]

Nah he could be talking about goha's full powered state before amassing ki for an attack as this would still mean his attack would be above gohan's.

No I'm fine with him being stronger than Gohan's full power state pre Kamehameha
I'm just questioning why are we assuming the Kamehameha was being referenced

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Question
Why wouldn't "stronger than SSJ2 Gohan" just mean "stronger than SSJ2 Gohan" and not "stronger than anything SSJ2 Gohan can muster"

SSJ2 Gohan was repeatedly stated to be superior to cell but would've died to his damn semi-perfect self destruct, and Goku (who's stronger than that same Semi-Perfect Cell) died from it too

Idk why it wouldn't just reference that specific form

Because Ki. If the other opponent has more ki he has more power speed and everything. Even special technigues used by the two people the stronger one would still be superior. Also self destruct's are among the moves which surpass realms like final explosion and also again If I remember right everyone would have died due to oxygen. Well Gohan would.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

No I'm fine with him being stronger than Gohan's full power state pre Kamehameha
I'm just questioning why are we assuming the Kamehameha was being referenced

Because Goku can do also do Kamehameha.