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Cell cannot escape baseline yet! (Dragon Ball)

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Nullflowerblush

Nullflowerblush

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Introduction​

Currently, our understanding of Super Perfect Cell's ability to destroy the solar system is based upon the hypothetical destruction of the solar system depicted by Dragon Ball Kai: Ultimate Butōden, a Japan-only Nintendo DS game released in 2011 and based on the then-ongoing Dragon Ball Kai anime series. Bandai Namco Games Inc. developed the gameplay, powered by the graphical engine Game Republic Inc. developed for previous DS titles like Dragon Ball: Origins, and the game includes a Story Mode encompassing the story of Z, even introducing unique What If...? scenarios (e.g. Goku and Bardock meeting during the Otherworld Tournament, Yamcha facing Vegeta and Frieza head-on, Z Era Videl using Ki Blasts, etc.) and presents its story, combat, and various character elements through the early 2010's finest and most cutting-edge handheld technology.

Do not misunderstand, please, the game is far from bad. In fact, had you asked me a decade or so ago when I was in the second or third grade, I would have told you this was one of my favorite Dragon Ball games of all time; and, to be honest, even today, Ultimate Butōden may still be in my top ten. I loved playing it.

The problem is: Ultimate Butōden is outdated. In fact, Ultimate Butōden is outdated by both 14 years chronologically and two entire generations of gaming. The audiovisual technology in the hands of development back in the seventh generation is drops in the ocean that is modern audiovisual tech—hell, even the tech of 2010, the year of the 3DS's release. The visual model which Cell's rating currently relies upon is completely and utterly outdated. Information changes around us as quickly as the years pass by us, if not moreso, yet our interpretation of the Solar Kamehameha has remained stagnant for seven years. Fortunately, we do have a more contemporary model, utilizing more advanced and up-to-date audiovisual technology in a format more conducive to both analysis and representation of the World of Dragon Ball.

Enter Dokkan Battle.

As of 2025, our current interpretation is outdated.​

Based on Dragon Ball Kai: Ultimate Butōden, the Wiki currently accepts the idea that (1) Cell threatened to destroy the solar system, along with defeating Gohan; (2) if successful, Cell's Kamehameha detonates on top of Earth, and the resulting explosion quickly expands beyond the sun, engulfing and erasing the entire solar system; and (3) Ki Blasts even being capable of producing explosions of such a nature. However, firstly, not once does Cell ever threaten the solar system. Yes, Cell declares itself capable of [blowing] away the solar system, but Cell's only target was Gohan, along with the Earth. Cell repeatedly affirms its ultimate goal is destroying Earth and humanity, which is reiterated numerous times by supplementary material; meaning, Ultimate Butōden's idea of cosmic explosions annihilating the solar system contradicts Cell's motives and intentions. And secondly, the entire idea of Cell producing an omnidirectional explosion engulfing the Sun with the Earth in its epicenter is based upon Dragon Ball Kai: Ultimate Butōden and the English translation for Dragon Ball Z: Supersonic Warriors, a 2004 Gameboy Advance game developed by Banpresto.

Dokkan Battle provides a much better visual reference, though.



The True Value of Perfect Form Cell (Perfect Form), first debuting in 2019, is an INT unit of LR rarity. Through its Passive Skill, "A Serious Game", Cell (Perfect Form) can become Perfect Cell, and in its transformed state, Cell gains access to the Active Skill "Solar Kamehameha", featuring a modern re-interpretation of the Solar Kamehameha had Cell been successful.

Said modern re-interpretation depicts Cell gathering up Ki, preparing its blast, and then firing its Kamehameha as had occurred in the original story, but after the blast drags through the ground, suddenly the Earth is enveloped by a ring of blue energy, which then engulfs and ultimately blows the entire planet up.

The idea of Cell's Kamehameha immediately detonating upon winning the beam struggle and swallowing Gohan and producing an omnidirectional explosion capable of expanding throughout the entire solar system, as opposed to swallowing up Gohan, then continuing in its trajectory, before blasting into the depths of outer space (as depicted in Dragon Ball Z: Kakarot), is not only completely unprecedented but is also contradicted by the established precedent; when Goku's Super Kamehameha defeated Piccolo's Makōsen, or Goku's Kaio-ken x4 Kamehameha defeated Vegeta's Galick Gun, or Gohan's Ultimate Kamehameha defeated Cell's Earth-Destroying Kamehameha, the winner's blast continued in its trajectory, eventually entering the depths of outer space; and, even after Cell's Kamehameha escaped Earth's atmosphere, its energy did not detonate. In an energy clash, the only time explosions are created is when (a) the blasts involved are equally matched, as with Goku and Jackie Chun's Kamehamehas or Goku's Kamehameha and Nappa's Break Cannon or (b) one of the blasts's trajectory interacts with the environment, as with Goku's Angry Kamehameha and Frieza's Last Emperor. Again, Gohan's Kamehameha defeated Cell's Kamehameha, and the Kamehameha's trajectory did not directly interact with the environment, and so the Kamehameha continued into outer space; for the sake of comparison, take for example, Goku's Instant Kamehameha, which did directly interact with the mountainous environment, triggering its detonation. In all likelihood, Cell's Kamehameha would have behaved in a similiar manner.

Now, you may be asking: "How was the Earth destroyed in the Active Skill animation, then?"

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cM0WftF.png


The form of celestial destruction illustrated in Cell's Active Skill animation is not unprecedented, even if the exact mechanics are, scientifically speaking, absurd—for lack of a better word; which, effectively, means that the interpretation of the Solar Kamehameha's success in Dokkan Battle is not only more up-to-date and visually faithful (which is a valid argument, apparently) to the source material than the currently accepted interpretation, but the Active Skill's animation is also more consistent with Cell's intentions and with the representation of the mechanics of Ki Blasts and energy clashes in the DB World. Hell, Cell was not even aiming for the entire solar system.

What exactly does this even mean?​

Well, this means the calculation Cell currently scales to is invalid.
1.053 KiloFOE is no longer an acceptable result.
I dunno. Let's discuss this. I haven't made a thread in ages.
 
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So this should apply to Toei Cell as well? Unless in the anime, he actually makes threats to the earth AND the solar system as well to gohan

So far, I'm leaning towards agree. Neutral for now
 
I'll re-evaluate once proper counter-arguments have been given but for now my initial assessment is to agree with the OP.
 
I disagree

We have had far too many discussions, and even Toriyama has outright called the scene an accurate portrayal of what would have happened if Gohan lost the clash against Cell in an interview. "Having more than enough energy to destroy the Solar System" does not contradict the scene and the scene simply elaborates.
 
Disagree. The interpretation being old =/= it's invalid and newer interpretations can be wrong. Furthermore, other versions of Kamehamehas acting a certain way =/= Cell's would aswell and as DDM said above, Toriyama even agreed with this interpretation of Cell's Kamehameha.

Cell's goal being to destroy Earth/humanity also doesn't mean he can't have enough or more than enough energy to destroy the solar system, hell Cell can even have enough energy to destroy the Universe and accomplish the same thing, said Universal interpretation being repeated both in the manga and the anime (the latter of which we already accept as it's constantly re-iterated)
 
I was leaning towards agreeing, but if the current version was called by Toriyama to be an accurate what if, then I guess it should stay
 
Nullflowerblush said:
yap about a DS game apparently being old and bad and limited hardware
Click to expand...
All of this doesn't matter, Idk why you're yapping about hardware, and tech and stuff as if the hardware in question was somehow not powerful enough to depict what it wanted to. This isn't the NES, it showed the cutscene in a very straightforward and easy to comprehend way. This isn't even like a thing like "oh this game map isn't to scale because game and hardware limitations even though we have explicit size statements" or game cheats like Dark Souls' actual map layout being a tad *****, Majora's Moon being the most inconsistently sized thing known to man, etc. It's a legit easy and sufficient cutscene, no game or hardware problems affect it at all.

This is a nothing argument, in fact I legitimately don't think it should even be part of the OP, it's active bloating and more stuff to read for something that literally has no bearing on even a single thing.
Nullflowerblush said:
Enter Dokkan Battle.

As of 2025, our current interpretation is outdated.​

Click to expand...
It was never an interpretation. It was just taking a blatant showing and going "well yeah it probably meant this tbh".
Nullflowerblush said:
snip
Click to expand...
This is also not a legitimate argument.

Ignoring the fact that two games > one game, so if two games support the intent, as opposed to one, would that not make the opposing factor less consistent? I'd say so tbh.

But you're arguing Cell only intended to destroy Earth and Gohan, but blowing away the Solar System could, in fact, do the exact same thing? You're saying he only intended to blow up earth and Gohan, and because that was his goal, thus surely he didn't want to blow up the rest too. Why? We already know his next step was wreaking havoc on the universe? Your conclusion is just extrapolation off something that can co-exist together.

You're arguing he ONLY intended to destroy the earth, but why couldn't the blast he just glazed to now be capable of blowing away the whole solar system, do that while also destroying the very planet he's standing on? You'd think he meant both at the same time just based on casual linguistics.
This is anything but an actual concrete argument, it's simply an assumption based wording that doesn't actually single anything out to begin with.
Nullflowerblush said:
Dokkan Battle provides a much better visual reference, though.
Click to expand...
Not really, they're equally viable.
Nullflowerblush said:
Click to expand...

I'm not sure I actually like this. Because not only could you easily argue it still destroyed the solar system as the flash of light does engulf the whole screen yet we never see past it to confirm how far it actually extended, so it's actually vague in and of itself.

But keen eyed viewers would know that the "planet destruction" and aftermath scene, is actually taken from when Semi Perfect Cell blows up Kaio's planet. Which makes it seem less like a "this is what happens" and more them just combining two different Cell scenes together for a animation. Which I'd argue has far less thought and forethought put into it compared to other scenes portraying that same scene.
Nullflowerblush said:
snip
Click to expand...
I don't think I have to say that characters who actively do not want to blow up the earth, not blowing up the earth, is not good examples.
Nullflowerblush said:
Now, you may be asking: "How was the Earth destroyed in the Active Skill animation, then?"


[/SPOILER]
The form of celestial destruction illustrated in Cell's Active Skill animation is not unprecedented, even if the exact mechanics are, scientifically speaking, absurd—for lack of a better word; which, effectively, means that the interpretation of the Solar Kamehameha's success in Dokkan Battle is not only more up-to-date and visually faithful (which is a valid argument, apparently) to the source material than the currently accepted interpretation, but the Active Skill's animation is also more consistent with Cell's intentions and with the representation of the mechanics of Ki Blasts and energy clashes in the DB World. Hell, Cell was not even aiming for the entire solar system.
Click to expand...

This isn't even true? They don't look remotely similar, and you can't just argue "it doesn't work this way" and then argue "ok but it actually does because-". That's just double standards, if you JUST argued it has to work a highly specific way and doesn't veer off from that thus the current thing bad, you can't just 180 and go "oh but this thing here-", it's contradicting your own argument.

Plus, it's cherry picking, fact of the matter is you could easily find examples where the other type happens as well. Ki attacks have done everything from blow up on contact with shit, to blowing through and keep going, to how it's conveyed in BOTH types of cutscenes, and more. There's instances of everything, it's not one or the other, thus arguing it has to work a certain way based on precedence doesn't quite play out because there's precedence for literally everything and some I'm probably forgetting too.
Nullflowerblush said:

What exactly does this even mean?​

Well, this means the calculation Cell currently scales to is invalid.
1.053 KiloFOE is no longer an acceptable result.
I dunno. Let's discuss this. I haven't made a thread in ages.
Click to expand...
This is a whole lot of words lad for what amounts to just going "a diff game shows it in a different way", and then arguing the detonation method isn't consistent, only to backpedal and say it is, while ignoring the other many detonation methods that would coincide with the other

Honestly? Just say game bad, not supervised by Toriyama, if you want to downgrade stuff. Overcomplicating things with stuff that is just as bad, arguably worse even, just makes it look like grasping as opposed to a legitimate downgrade because it's wrong.

I'd also want to point out, if Cell makes a specific note about how his attack is capable of blowing away the whole solar system, and his ass is on earth when he says that, whether or not he goes through with having it detonate or explode or whatever to blow up the SS doesn't matter. You're arguing he simply says "capable", but for it to be capable of doing that, in that moment, on earth, still results in the exact same end result so really why even use the game anyway, basic context clues concludes that anyhow.

But nah



"すでに地球どころか太陽系すべてが 吹きとぶほどの気力が溜まっているぞ!!!" which is more like "Already, let alone Earth, even the entire Solar System, enough energy to blow it all away has built up!!" if we wanna be anal with a literal translation. He's not saying it's merely capable, he's straight up saying his current attack he is charging up right now, won't just blow away earth, but the WHOLE solar system, and yes whole. すべて means all or entire (with the particle attaching it to the SS), and 地球 どころか means "not just the earth" or "let alone the earth", whatever same shit, he's saying quite literally he's gonna blow away not JUST earth which kind of goes against your one argument. And obviously that's all concluded with 吹きとぶ (to be blown away, to be blasted away, to be blown up, etc) and ほど (meaning like "to the extent that", "so much that", etc, as in his ass is saying he's now gathered enough energy to the extent that he's going to blow away the entire solar system).

There's the scan, there's the text so you can check yourself, whatever.

It's minor, the general wording and what it conveys is more or less the same, but if one of the arguments is legit just "he isn't talking about blowing it up NOW", the nuance in the raw makes it pretty clear his attack is going to blow away not just earth but the whole solar system.
And the whole "beams do this, or that, or etc", don't work because by that logic he wouldn't even destroy the earth if it was just gonna go fly off into space.

I disagree, not even because of the game, but because it's pretty obvious that the intent is he can blow up the SS while being where earth is located.
 
TheGreatJedi13 said:
I want to bring up the Dokkan battle also have cases where they incorporated things animation that did not happen just to line up with how they want portray the characters and their abilities.
One example is Vegito Blue animation.
Click to expand...
There's been way more Dokkan original animations lately, yeah. Vegito Blue, Gogeta Blue, Super Vegito, Super Gogeta... wow all the best ones really are fusions
 
I disagree for DDM reasons, furthermore the very official website mentioned that the Cell could destroy the entire solar system and more It is once quoted as saying that it will destroy the entire solar system ( which in fact Cell had his target the entire solar system according to his own website ) , anyway... Cell blows up the solar system and that's it.
 
Chariot190 said:
But nah



"すでに地球どころか太陽系すべてが 吹きとぶほどの気力が溜まっているぞ!!!" which is more like "Already, let alone Earth, even the entire Solar System, enough energy to blow it all away has built up!!" if we wanna be anal with a literal translation. He's not saying it's merely capable, he's straight up saying his current attack he is charging up right now, won't just blow away earth, but the WHOLE solar system, and yes whole. すべて means all or entire (with the particle attaching it to the SS), and 地球 どころか means "not just the earth" or "let alone the earth", whatever same shit, he's saying quite literally he's gonna blow away not JUST earth which kind of goes against your one argument. And obviously that's all concluded with 吹きとぶ (to be blown away, to be blasted away, to be blown up, etc) and ほど (meaning like "to the extent that", "so much that", etc, as in his ass is saying he's now gathered enough energy to the extent that he's going to blow away the entire solar system).

There's the scan, there's the text so you can check yourself, whatever.

It's minor, the general wording and what it conveys is more or less the same, but if one of the arguments is legit just "he isn't talking about blowing it up NOW", the nuance in the raw makes it pretty clear his attack is going to blow away not just earth but the whole solar system.
And the whole "beams do this, or that, or etc", don't work because by that logic he wouldn't even destroy the earth if it was just gonna go fly off into space.

I disagree, not even because of the game, but because it's pretty obvious that the intent is he can blow up the SS while being where earth is located.
Click to expand...

If this adds anything but dbz kakarot has a similar statement where he says it has enough power to destroy earth and solar system



So yeah I don't think we should use dokkan for that
 
Mfw Cell Max Blows up Earth in his Active Skill but Dokkan doesn't give him the Planetary Destruction Category
 
It’s not a Dokkan original animation tho, since it’s based on previously existing stuff
 
Chariot190 said:
Ignoring the fact that two games > one game, so if two games support the intent, as opposed to one, would that not make the opposing factor less consistent? I'd say so tbh.
Click to expand...
Actually, in the JP version of Supersonic Warriors, Cell's dialogue is copied from the original story, verbatim. Only in the English localization does Cell declare itself capable of blowing up the Sun from the Earth. Which, like, genuinely could mean firing a Kamehameha into and then exploding from the Sun.
Chariot190 said:
You're arguing he ONLY intended to destroy the earth, but why couldn't the blast he just glazed to now be capable of blowing away the whole solar system, do that while also destroying the very planet he's standing on? You'd think he meant both at the same time just based on casual linguistics.
Click to expand...
Japanese is very much not a "based on casual linguistics" language, to my knowledge.
Chariot190 said:
I'm not sure I actually like this. Because not only could you easily argue it still destroyed the solar system as the flash of light does engulf the whole screen yet we never see past it to confirm how far it actually extended, so it's actually vague in and of itself.
Click to expand...
Except the only thing in the image affected by the explosion is the Earth.
Chariot190 said:
But keen eyed viewers would know that the "planet destruction" and aftermath scene, is actually taken from when Semi Perfect Cell blows up Kaio's planet.
Click to expand...
An even sharper eye could identify only the pink cloud of space dust originates from the scene of Cell's self-destruction. In fact, Cell's transformation animation depicts Cell's self-destruction, including the uniquely appearing explosion of King Kai's planet—noticeably distinct from Earth's explosion.
Chariot190 said:
This isn't even true? They don't look remotely similar, and you can't just argue "it doesn't work this way" and then argue "ok but it actually does because-".
Click to expand...
Fair. I suppose I was thinking of the Z anime's portrayal of events, rather than the original story or Kakarot's.
Chariot190 said:
Honestly? Just say game bad, not supervised by Toriyama, if you want to downgrade stuff.
Click to expand...
Sure, game bad, not supervised, based off of the Kai TV anime.
Chariot190 said:
"すでに地球どころか太陽系すべてが 吹きとぶほどの気力が溜まっているぞ!!!" which is more like "Already, let alone Earth, even the entire Solar System, enough energy to blow it all away has built up!!" if we wanna be anal with a literal translation. -snip- 地球 どころか means "not just the earth" or "let alone the earth", whatever same shit, he's saying quite literally he's gonna blow away not JUST earth which kind of goes against your one argument.
Click to expand...
Again, as I had already acknowledged, the particle どころか (dokoro ka) indicates a comparison (see JLPTSensei) (see Bunpro) (see Wiktionary) (see here) (see here) (see Takoboto); the particle ごと (goto) indicates relationship (see Jisho) (see Wiktionary) (see Kotobank) (see Bunpro) (see JLPTSensei) (see Cambridge). 地球どころか would literally mean "not just the Earth" or "let alone the Earth", which is what you yourself acknowledged? As opposed to when Cell openly threatened to destroy Gohan, along with the Earth using ごと, again, Cell declares itself capable of destroying Earth and further capable of even destroying the solar system, which どころか establishes is not a matter of relationship, but a matter of escalation and comparison. If I claimed "I can destroy not just the Moon, but the entire planet as well", would you assume I were merely both A and B scenarios to be fact, with scenario B simply being of greater magnitude, or would you assume I can create an explosion which expands to engulf both the Earth and its Moon simultaneously?
Chariot190 said:
It's minor, the general wording and what it conveys is more or less the same, but if one of the arguments is legit just "he isn't talking about blowing it up NOW", the nuance in the raw makes it pretty clear his attack is going to blow away not just earth but the whole solar system.
Click to expand...
What nuance? We have already established Cell can destroy the solar system. There is no nuance in the text suggesting Cell was intending on destroying the solar system, though. Cell only states that, with the amount of energy gathered up, the Kamehameha has the power to—not to produce an omnidirectional explosion capable of reaching the sun, of course, but just to destroy the solar system as a general statement. General statements equal baseline ratings.
Killerdrone123 said:
If this adds anything but dbz kakarot has a similar statement where he says it has enough power to destroy earth and solar system

Click to expand...

Actually, Cell says 地球どころか、太陽系すべてが吹き飛ぶの気力だぞ!!!!, which is roughly "This is the energy to blow away not just Earth, but the entire solar system!!!" Again, as expected, Cell uses どころか. Nothing about the dialogue ever changes.
StekFence said:
It’s not a Dokkan original animation tho, since it’s based on previously existing stuff
Click to expand...
What other elements was the animation based on? Do tell.
 
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