Honestly, 99% of 4-B feats aren't even baseline, it's not even that Cell is above baseline, just that our baseline is kinda misleadingly low because who tf blows up the SS starting with sun, most mfs and stories take place on earth, half the time the start is from there.
Actually, in the JP version of Supersonic Warriors, Cell's dialogue is
copied from the original story, verbatim. Only in the English localization does Cell declare itself capable of blowing up the Sun from the Earth.
Which, like, genuinely could mean firing a Kamehameha into and then exploding from the Sun.
Yeah and? He isn't saying what you're saying he is in that either?
Also why are we using games? And I really do mean that, why is this whole argument hinging on games and not what actually matters, that being the manga?
Also no, your spoiler is bad, "
could mean". Why the extra assumption? And also I don't think he's even facing toward the sun when he says that either. Looking at the manga panels, because we give a shit about shadows apparently if I've learned anything recently
In every panel, yes every I gave up after 2, you can check yourself, the shadows cast always go either to the left or behind Gohan's direction (Usually a bit angled to the left, like the squad laying on the ground for example). And from Cell, his shadows always go in front of him or a bit to the right (so Gohan's left). This means the sun is behind Cell, or off to the left, probably a bit inbetween, but pretty demonstrably not in the path of Cell's trajectory. Not that I think this is even a worthwhile argument, **** shadows and art, Toriyama can indeed mess up, not like it's foolproof, but, given your point is an assumption in and of itself, there needs to be some basis to it beyond just you throwing it out there.
Japanese is very much not a "based on casual linguistics" language, to my knowledge.
It very much is. The whole "erm context" shit is so overblown it's an actual meme.
Yeah it matters at times, and sometimes things don't get said because it's fundamentally obvious, but japanese isn't some secret language that's impossible to parse or understand that us filthy westerners will never comprehend. Shit ain't as bad as the internet would have you believe.
But the key words in the original text, are
not that mind you. They are explicitly strung together in a very straightforward meaning.
If it's "to your knowledge", don't waste everyone's time, go grab someone who is fluent even, surely we have a translation helper who can chime in as to not turn this thread into an "erm actually" back and forth, because I'm gonna be honest, I know enough to like barely read basic stuff in VN's and games, I sure as hell ain't fluent, practically the equivalent of reading english at a child's level, so while I'm confident it's enough to parse a literal basic sentence that is Cell's singular text bubble, at a glance even, someone actually helping to confirm would be beneficial, especially as it seems you aren't exactly the most reliable source for that either.
Except the only thing in the image affected by the explosion is the Earth.
Except "we don't see anything beyond that", as in "the explosion engulfs everything we can see, but it does go offscreen for a few frames".
The whole screen is engulfed at one point. You're concluding that because all we see is the earth, that must be the only thing that was affected, which would normally be true, we don't assume if we don't have to.
But that isn't how this works, we
have extra context here. The context of the attack having enough power to blow away not just the earth, but the whole solar system.
You are ignoring that caveat, saying because only earth was shown, that's all it did, notwithstanding it's a goddamn gatcha game cinematic, but the context in the very source material that says otherwise almost directly. In which case you just have a blast, that engulfs the whole screen at some point, which is said to not only blow away earth, but the entirety of the SS, so it very well could have extended further, especially because it does to at least some extent.
This isn't solid evidence in the slightest, it's vague at best. Don't base downgrades, or upgrades even, off vague evidence that is entirely "well it MIGHT be the case". And least of all, I legit don't care about Dokkan ngl, not like Toriyama had any involvement. I ALSO don't care about the DS game either btw, but the fact it exists kind of puts your Dokkan counterargument at a standstill.
An even sharper eye could identify only the pink cloud of space dust originates from
the scene of Cell's self-destruction. In fact, Cell's transformation animation
depicts Cell's self-destruction, including the uniquely appearing explosion of King Kai's planet—noticeably distinct from Earth's explosion.
Ya know, admitting
it's literally the case, isn't a good sign.
But no, it very much is, it's been spliced to shit, tweaked and modified to fit within a like 5 second cinematic, but there's so much overlap and even shared frames between them, that I'm not humoring this, especially as you concede it takes from it anyway.
Fair. I suppose I was thinking of
the Z anime's portrayal of events, rather than the
original story or
Kakarot's.
This is better, but we're not arguing the Z anime. The very fact the Z anime differs from other mediums of that exact same scene, shows it isn't actually concrete, it'd be cherry picking to use that among any of the others.
Sure, game bad, not supervised, based off of the Kai TV anime.
Then argue that instead of whatever the hell you have been.
Again, as I had already acknowledged, the particle どころか (
dokoro ka) indicates a comparison (see
JLPTSensei) (see
Bunpro) (see
Wiktionary) (see
here) (see
here) (see
Takoboto); the particle ごと (
goto) indicates relationship (see
Jisho) (see
Wiktionary) (see
Kotobank) (see
Bunpro) (see
JLPTSensei) (see
Cambridge). 地球どころか would
literally mean "not just the Earth" or "let alone the Earth", which is what
you yourself acknowledged?
Yeah? He's saying he's gathered enough energy to the extent it can blow away
not just the earth, but
the entire solar system.
What are you even arguing? It's a word used to escalate, it is NEVER used in the opposite direction either.
The word, coupled with the adjacent modifiers, clauses and slop, literally means he's not just going to destroy the earth, but the solar system too? You just posted a bunch links that don't even agree with you.
So uh, yep, "Ive gathered enough energy to blow away
not just the earth, but the entire solar system!". Seems pretty damn explicit. Why the mental gymnastics?
As opposed to when Cell openly threatened to destroy Gohan, along with the Earth using ごと, again, Cell declares itself capable of destroying Earth and further capable of even destroying the solar system, which どころか establishes is not a matter of relationship, but a matter of escalation and comparison.
I wrote a breakdown of this but realized it doesn't even matter. Are you arguing because Cell didn't say ごと in the SS line, he didn't mean simultaneously? He doesn't have too, remember that thing about fundamentally obvious shit not needing to be spoonfed in japanese? Yeah that.
If he can blow away the solar system with that attack, earth is obviously part of that, especially as he clarifies he means the
entire solar system. But him going "Gohan I'm gonna kill you AND the earth", not quite the same. The absence of that word, is not proof or even implication he means separately.
Plus Cell can threaten Gohan, the earth, and every mf on the planet, it isn't an argument. He can do both. In fact having the energy to blow away the solar system which he literally just finished saying, would, of course, encompass his goal of blowing away earth and Gohan too?
Cell uses a word that straight up denotes not only the earth will be destroyed. Why is it not only the earth? He says why, because his attack can now blow away the entire solar system too. You're quite literally missing the forest for the trees here because it's elaborated and clarified in the exact same sentence why it's the case.
If I claimed "I can destroy not just the Moon, but the entire planet as well", would you assume I were merely both A and B scenarios to be fact, with scenario B simply being of greater magnitude, or would you assume I can create an explosion which expands to engulf both the Earth and its Moon simultaneously?
Yes actually, if you charged up a huge attack to destroy the earth, after 20 seconds went "Haha! I've gathered enough energy to the extent that of not just destroying the earth, but the moon as well!", I would assume you mean both at once because the attack itself isn't changing, the circumstances isn't changing, and you're specifying what your attack in the now is capable of. if you fired it off, and it wouldn't destroy both, you'd be full of shit.
What nuance? We have already established Cell can destroy the solar system.
You're simply stating something as such, based on mere conjecture.
And yes he CAN destroy the Solar System, because his attack was strong enough to do so at that point now. That's what he says lad, you're adding in your own interpretation and mental gymnastics into a line, I don't even think you CAN interpret to mean anything but? You're trying to argue specifics that are never given, yes we've established he can destroy the SS, but you're going a step further and trying to establish extra things that simply do not exist.
The nuance, is the where, when, present tense, current accumulation, and how he specifies and modifies "energy" with it being not just earth destroying, but in fact will blow away the whole solar system too, which the words entail.
There is no nuance in the text suggesting Cell was intending on destroying the solar system, though.
Yes there is? In no world would someone say the very attack in their hands, at that exact moment, now has enough energy to blow away not just the earth, but the entire solar system, to mean what you're arguing.
He'd be a goddamn liar if we took your interpretation of the scene because he WOULDN'T be able to if it was only our arbitrary baseline of 4-B yield. If he let that bad boy loose, he would fail, he wouldn't be able to destroy the sun, along with the rest of the SS, this matters because the sentence actually does state the entire SS.
He's saying then, there, in that exact second, the attack he has would wipe out the whole solar system. You could argue nuh uh, he doesn't plan to, but not only is that headcanon and conjecture, but it wouldn't actually change anything because he just flatout said he could blow up the whole thing then and there with that attack. For your interpretation to work, he would only be capable if he flew his ass across the SS and did it, but he's on earth as he says it an is speaking in explicitly present tense and thus have also had to of meant only if he flew 150 million km to the sun and did it there, when really he's talking about right then.
Cell only states that, with the amount of energy gathered up, the Kamehameha has the power to—not to produce an omnidirectional explosion capable of reaching the sun, of course, but just to destroy the solar system as a general statement. General statements equal baseline ratings.
Dude who is charging up a super huge **** off energy attack suddenly exclaims "Haha! This attack now has enough energy to blow away not just the earth, but the entire solar system!", and you're going nuh uh actually?
What do you think he means? Like be real, for it to have the power to destroy the ENTIRE, because he explicitly states that, it's gonna HAVE to be omnidirectional, the only way it wouldn't is if his ass flew to like the very edge of the solar system, fired it off, and just deleted everything one way, but that would only make it much, much, stronger. If it wasn't omnidirectional, even if he did it where the sun is, he'd fail, because there's shit on all sides of the sun because orbits duh, given we know, for a fact, ki attacks can explode omnidirectionally, they can, they have, you can cherry pick instances where they don't but fact is they can so arguing secretly they can not, is a waste of both of our time.
And no this argument is bad, because you're ignoring context here. You're throwing out your own common sense due to wiki brainrot and legit arguing it is STILL omnidirectional mind you, but omnidirectional starting from the sun, not the earth, because that's what the baseline 4-B is, an omnidirectional explosion that destroys the SS starting from the sun.
And thinking on it, nope, he very clearly states "吹きとぶ", which means to blow away, and is very commonly used for explosions (Killer Queen's slop uses that phrasing all the time for example). So yes an explosion is involved, and explosions are omnidirectional, doubly so as he says the whole of the SS, so no matter where he fires it, it must expand omnidirectionally, otherwise he literally wouldn't be capable of blowing away the entirety of it, as shit would always be missed.
Actually, Cell says
地球どころか、太陽系すべてが吹き飛ぶの気力だぞ!!!!, which is roughly
"This is the energy to blow away not just Earth, but the entire solar system!!!" Again, as expected, Cell uses どころか. Nothing about the dialogue ever changes.
Which, still means the exact same thing?
Yes, dokoro means an escalation, comparative, but only in the sense of escalation comparative to the previous thing, which sure as hell doesn't help your case.
This is a whole lot of arguing for nothing that changes or proves your point. If Cell was saying what you're arguing, he wouldn't even use that to begin with, he'd use something more conditional like することも可能だ (is also possible) or something explicitly conditional like やろうと思えばできる (I could if I wanted to). What he says clearly states that the amount of gathered energy is sufficient to cause that level of destruction in the now, not that it just might hypothetically be possible.
Because again, words dude, ほどの (to the extent) clearly describes how immense the energy he has gathered is
then. He's straight up saying he's already at that point, in that moment, that his attack won't just blow away earth, but the entire SS.
Plus, japanese is a SOV language, which also helps make things a bit more explicit.
すでに地球どころか太陽系すべてが吹きとぶほどの気力が溜まっているぞ!!!
溜まっている is the core verb here, which "
is accumulated/gathered", present tense btw. This is at the very end of the sentence, due to how jpn is formatted. Next is 気力が (ki shit), which is marked by が, to denote what he gathered, that being the uh, energy.
Now, jpn says shit, usually, before the noun, to add descriptive clauses and other stuff to the noun to modify it or clarify stuff, which they do here. 地球どころか太陽系すべてが吹きとぶほどの, specifically 気力, specifies to the extent it's at, ie, "to the extent that not just Earth, but the entire Solar System will blow away".
You might be wondering why I even said this, but the
whole line "to the extent that not just Earth, but the entire Solar System will blow away", is acting
AS A MODIFIER, to the word "energy". Which makes it pretty explicitly not up for debate that he means now, with that very attack, not just earth, but the whole SS is going buh bye.
And then we got "すでに (already)", which is placed at the very start, which tells us he's already at that point in how much he's gathered.
Now that might all seem obvious, because it is, but why's that important? Because it
doesn't say what you're arguing it does. At no point ever is it made into a hypothetical, circumstantial, even just a "yeah i could if i wanted".
The very sentence structure is explicitly, not up for debate, that his attack is at the point it won't just blow away earth, but the entire solar system. Not
can mind you, but
will. And why's that matter? Because his ass is on earth, if his attack will blow away the whole SS, as he's on earth, then it is what it is.
I'm only going to ask this once, we don't need ten pages of dumb shit, prove it.
The raw at no point says anything that makes it simply a possibility or simply what he could do it if he chose to. The sentence of note is him hard stating his attack is at the point that it's strong to the extent of not just blowing away earth, but the whole SS. To arrive at your interpretation of the line, you have to shove in extra words, or add extra assumptions, which don't make sense because if it was a thing to begin with, he'd have said it. And everything else literally doesn't matter.
Games? There's games that very explicitly contradict your argument that are far more clear too, so it boils down to cherry picking if you go that route.
Threatening Gohan or earth? Literally don't matter, he could do so a hundred times and it wouldn't change his line, he doesn't need to say he can blow away the SS every time.
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