Cell is getting nerfed. (Dragon Ball)

[KingTempest]

Usually.
But they can also choose to use more or equal energy in their punches and kicks than Kamehamehas, therefore their physicals scale.

But they never do, so they don't

Even if they don't always do it, as long as they can do it with their physicals then it must be on their profiles.

Based on what exactly?

Unless you want to specify a character is 'Tier X, Y when punching really hard, Y with named technique' which would just be ridiculous.

If a character has never done so, then we won't note it.

For Kid Goku, we wouldn't say "Tier X (Speared through King Piccolo), Y with Kamehameha" when he and Piccolo were neck and neck.

What you're doing is misleading and wrong

 

[Damage3245]

Even if they don't always do it, as long as they can do it with their physicals then it must be on their profiles.
Unless you want to specify a character is 'Tier X, Y when punching really hard, Y with named technique' which would just be ridiculous.

We do similar things with Naruto profiles and even some of our DBZ profiles.

It's not exceptional to list when characters have special attacks that are noticeably more than their typical fighting capabilities.

 

[pineappleman]

We do similar things with Naruto profiles and even some of our DBZ profiles.

It's not exceptional to list when characters have special attacks that are noticeably more than their typical fighting capabilities.

I'm not referring to any special attacks, I'm specifically referring to really hard punches

 

[pineappleman]

But they never do, so they don't


Based on what exactly?

If a character has never done so, then we won't note it.

For Kid Goku, we wouldn't say "Tier X (Speared through King Piccolo), Y with Kamehameha" when he and Piccolo were neck and neck.

What you're doing is misleading and wrong

So basically, if I get you examples of physicals hitting approximately as hard as ki attacks in the series, you'll concede?

 

[KingTempest]

So basically, if I get you examples of physicals hitting approximately as hard as ki attacks in the series, you'll concede?

No, because you're giving exceptions to the rule.

Somebody who's average physicals hit as hard as their charged up ki attacks and not their regular small blasts is isolated scaling.
That would scale to them.

You can't make verse wide scaling of "average physicals = charged up ki attacks" because "I found 2 dudes who hit as hard as their own ki attacks".

And what now, would this make random slight ki attacks that barely have any ki put in them but are relative to their physicals scale to ultimate attacks?

 

[pineappleman]

No, because you're giving exceptions to the rule.

Somebody who's average physicals hit as hard as their charged up ki attacks and not their regular small blasts is isolated scaling.
That would scale to them.

You can't make verse wide scaling of "average physicals = charged up ki attacks" because "I found 2 dudes who hit as hard as their own ki attacks".

And what now, would this make random slight ki attacks that barely have any ki put in them but are relative to their physicals scale to ultimate attacks?

Why are you scaling characters below their peaks? If a character's peak unnamed punch is 4-A or whatever, then he should be 4-A physically. That is literally how it works

 

[TiltedFN]

Sherlock makes sense to me, disagree.

 

[Damage3245]

Why are you scaling characters below their peaks? If a character's peak unnamed punch is 4-A or whatever, then he should be 4-A physically. That is literally how it works

If a character fights with 5-C statistics for 99% of the time, but they can charge up an energy blast for several seconds that can build up to 5-B.

Then why wouldn't we put their statistics down as "5-C, 5-B with [name of energy blast here]".

That'd certainly make scaling other characters off of them a lot easier to decipher.

 

[KingTempest]

Why are you scaling characters below their peaks? If a character's peak unnamed punch is 4-A or whatever, then he should be 4-A physically. That is literally how it works

Go look at the DC and Marvel guys who hold back 24/7 and have separate ratings for it.

We don't scale to peaks. We scale to averages. If somebody's peak is far stronger than their average, then we note it.

This isn't their average, and for most people it isn't something they even show in canon.

I doubt you could find me 5 examples of people who canonically focus as much ki as their ultimate attacks in their fist, because they don't.

All because somebody can, doesn't mean somebody does or somebody will.

 

[pineappleman]

I doubt you could find me 5 examples of people who canonically focus as much ki as their ultimate attacks in their fist, because they don't.

In all available mediums? (movies/GT included)

 

[KingTempest]

In all available mediums? (movies/GT included)

We're talking about canon. We scale GT and movies separate from the manga canon

And please if you do decide to do so, don't expect me to change my opinion unless you have something that proves that the average person hits as hard as their focused ki blasts

 

[KingNanaya]

agree with OP so far

 

[Shadyboi0]

Are people saying Cell punches as hard as his Solar Kamehameha?

 

[StekFence]

Why don’t u just say Cell is X tier normally, and 4-B at peak. Peak would imply anything from all his ki in one punch, or one blast Right?

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Why don’t u just say Cell is X tier normally, and 4-B at peak. Peak would imply anything from all his ki in one punch, or one blast Right?

I have no problem with that personally. It's what I have been saying.

 

[RedReaper]

I don't think you get it

The UES law is flawed.

If they scale via feats, they scale via feats.

The people in the OP DON'T SCALE VIA FEATS, so they won't scale.

Stop bringing up unrelated incidents. It doesn't support the case

I find this very misleading. You're attempting to use an "unrelated" incident of how Ki works to justify the downgrade.

HE is using "unrelated" feats of people's durability scaling directly to beam attacks (Piccolo in the 23rd Tenkaichi, Goku training, etc.) via similar properties of how Ki works to justify why you SHOULDN'T downgrade them.

This has nothing to do with feats in general, and both are related.

This is solely based on how the properties of Ki Behave, which you can observe in any feat across the series because anyone of relevance uses it, and thus (unless explicitly stated otherwise, such as Krillin's Double Tsuibikidan, which unlike normal energy attacks that scale to the user's speed, move deceptively slower), would apply to anyone and everyone.

 

[TiltedFN]

Why don’t u just say Cell is X tier normally, and 4-B at peak. Peak would imply anything from all his ki in one punch, or one blast Right?

so 4-B

 

[StekFence]

If u just put 4-B, that would imply any of his attacks are as strong as… his strongest attack

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

If u just put 4-B, that would imply any of his attacks are as strong as… his strongest attack

I do think he can keep that output for a few seconds to be honestl. The beam wasn't a one of thing. But he for sure doesn't operate at these kinds of ap if the fight doesn't last a few seconds.

 

[Damage3245]

If u just put 4-B, that would imply any of his attacks are as strong as… his strongest attack

There are different levels of 4-B.

We're proposing that he be "4-B, higher with Kamehameha".

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

There are different levels of 4-B.

We're proposing that he be "4-B, higher with Kamehameha".

I would still prefer with fully charged attacks but whatever.

 

[Borutonarutodebunked]

Jiren actually doesn't catch them, he punches them on the flat part to break them and not the actual blade itself.

That's an anime filler feat so it doesn't count for the main continuity. The attack is described in the guides to cut through anything.

I never said, the cell example counts towards main continuity. The only time it was described to cut through anything are those 2 instances.

 

[Cropfist]

I agree with this.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Disagree with this, don't find it convincing enough honestly.

 

[Damage3245]

Disagree with this, don't find it convincing enough honestly.

Would you prefer if there was more evidence that the Kamehameha can be much more powerful than the user's typical attacks?

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Would you prefer if there was more evidence that the Kamehameha can be much more powerful than the user's typical attacks?

Should have made my stance more clear.

It's not that specifically. I do agree that a "lengthy" charge makes it more powerful but I don't agree with it being incredibly noticable in Cell's case. Don't have much interest in debating Dragon Ball anymore but I just wanted to make my stance clear. The attack "can" be stronger but when you apply other reasonings like characters surviving charged up attacks but then still being effected by punches, you need to ask "how long it the charge needed before it's too much for the characters themselves?". Events in the Black/Zamasu Arc had them charging attacks didn't do overtly more damage then their fists. So to generalize my point again, they can charge attacks like the kamahamaha to reach higher levels but I disagree with that being a general assumption it's noticeably different. I have other points but again, I can agree with 4-B, higher with kamahamaha. I just don't think it's as applicable to certain scenarios.

That's pretty much all I'll say on the matter.

 

[Damage3245]

I have other points but again, I can agree with 4-B, higher with kamahamaha.

Okay, thanks for clarifying. That's all that's being proposed.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

We're proposing that he be "4-B, higher with Kamehameha".

Agree with this.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

bump

 

[Vietthai96]

So, assume this is accepted SSJ2 Gohan and Super Perfect Cell gonna up scale from SSJ Gohan and Perfect Cell at best, which is....uh......High 4-C with 4-B Kamehameha then

 

[TiltedFN]

So, assume this is accepted SSJ2 Gohan and Super Perfect Cell gonna up scale from SSJ Gohan and Perfect Cell at best, which is....uh......High 4-C with 4-B Kamehameha then

its still 4-B

 

[Vietthai96]

its still 4-B

How you even know it still 4-B?? The 4-B is scale from the Solar Kamehameha, with it gone no more 4-B

 

[TiltedFN]

How you even know it still 4-B?? The 4-B is scale from the Solar Kamehameha, with it gone no more 4-B

they up scale from grade 3 i think, which is 4-B, scroll back some pages and you'll see

 

[ProudLearner]

I agree with the OP.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Can y'all at least call it "4-B, higher with Solar Kamehameha" since that's the name of the attack? Smh

 

[Vietthai96]

they up scale from grade 3 i think, which is 4-B, scroll back some pages and you'll see

Upscale alone isn't get you to 4-B, unless i forgot some multipliers and calcs

 

[CloverDragon03]

Upscale alone isn't get you to 4-B, unless i forgot some multipliers and calcs

Revived Cell > Powerhouse Cell who scales to 4-B via some multipliers

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

So this is what happens when your story doesn't have a properly established power system.
Also what does UES mean?

 

[Huesito88]

So this is what happens when your story doesn't have a properly established power system.
Also what does UES mean?

Universal Energy System basically the power system of energy in the verse. Which DBZ should have one by now....

 

[CloverDragon03]

So this is what happens when your story doesn't have a properly established power system.
Also what does UES mean?

UES = Universal Energy System