Broly vs. Vegito Blue.

[Sptflcrw]

Because the barrier, Frieza, and 17 weakened the blast beforehand.

 

[Omegas03]

Base Goku went in and overpowered the same blast that had Golden Freeza and 17 in a hurry.

Goku also fought in equal terms against Jiren with some help, meanwhile 17 in the first half of the fight got overpowered quickly meaning Base Goku is at least stronger than 17 who is SSJB Goku (Pre-UIS) level. Also 17 yeah was just throwing blast because if he went against Jiren like Goku was doing he would have been overpowered quickly.

Ninja'd^2

 

[Peter1129]

How did you even come to that conclusion? Their barrier was broken it didn't weaken at all since Jiren was still releasing energy at the time.

@Omegas03 Android 17 is actually Pre-UIS SSBKK lvl going by his showing in the tournament.

 

[AguilaR101]

Ultra Instinct -sign-

Post-ToP Base saiyans are much stronger because an Weakened Goku outperformed Golden Freeza and Android 17 who are SSJB Goku (pre-UIS) level or higher.

EDIT: Ninja'd

Freeza and Jiren were severely weakened by the end for that interpretation to be valid in the slightest, even if you try to play "but 17 is blue level and has unlimited stamina" it's far more reasonable to assume the statement of him having unlimited stamina simply not being legitimate than assuming 2 other characters (who aren't saiyans) got such a massive boost after a beatdown.

 

[Omegas03]

what has 17 done to show he's Pre-UIS SSJBKK level? his fight against Base Toppo?

 

[Peter1129]

@Omegas03 He was able to damage Base Toppo who could no sell attacks from Ultimate Gohan who is Pre-UIS SSB lvl. He was also able to hold back Ultimate Gohan's Kamehameha with one hand when he dropped his barrier after Toppo punched him.

 

[Omegas03]

@AguilaR101

So you are going to ignore the multiple statements of Androids having unlimited stamina just because you think the last fight in the series is illogical? doesn't make sense imo.

 

[AguilaR101]

No i'm willing to write off the scene and your interpretation of it as inconsistent like any reasonable person should, like you would write off the idea of wanking krillin to blue levels just because Goku felt the need to go into that form to overpower his KHH.

 

[Omegas03]

@Omegas03 He was able to damage Base Toppo who could no sell attacks from Ultimate Gohan who is Pre-UIS SSB lvl. He was also able to hold back Ultimate Gohan's Kamehameha with one hand when he dropped his barrier after Toppo punched him.

17 is still considerably weaker than Base Toppo as he was getting overpowered a lot by him and was like avoiding him 90% of the fight.

 

[Sptflcrw]

Post-UI Base Goku stopped Jiren blast that overpowered Golden Frieza and Android 17 by himself after their barrier shattered. The fight later on where Base Frieza kept up with him is an severe outlier.

lol how is that an outlier, yet a weak as shit base Goku being stronger than both Golden Frieza and Android 17 isn't an outlier? Actually stop.

 

[Peter1129]

@AguilaR101 Jiren was severely weakened cause he was fighting non stop and took a beating from UI Goku however Frieza wasn't. He wasn't even fighting for a couple of minutes. And we know that Dragon Ball characters recover their stamina and strength insanely quickly. After all Goku regain his stamina in the tournament in a couple of minutes multiple times.

 

[Peter1129]

17 is still considerably weaker than Base Toppo as he was getting overpowered a lot by him and was like avoiding him 90% of the fight.

He wasn't considerably weaker than Base Toppo. When Toppo decided to use his full power we see that 17 could hold it back in a Super Perfect Cell vs SS2 Gohan esque beam struggle which shows that he isn't overwhelmingly weaker than Base Toppo.

 

[Omegas03]

Post-UI Base Goku stopped Jiren blast that overpowered Golden Frieza and Android 17 by himself after their barrier shattered. The fight later on where Base Frieza kept up with him is an severe outlier.

lol how is that an outlier, yet a weak as shit base Goku being stronger than both Golden Frieza and Android 17 isn't an outlier? Actually stop.

Freeza is an outlier because he hasn't been shown to get any stronger throught the Tournament and remained Pre-UIS SSJB level in his Golden Form, so his Base Form doing better than his Golden (few moments prior) is clearly an outlier.

Meanwhile Goku has been consistently shown to surpass his previous power level a lot throught the ToP. after each UIS activation he was stronger so his feats aren't outliers. Unless you want to say Weakened Post-UIS1 Goku fighting Caulifla and then both Caulifla and Kale are outliers too.

 

[Peter1129]

@Sptflcrw It's not an outlier because the UIS limit breaking boosts is a thing.

 

[Sptflcrw]

@AguilaR101 Jiren was severely weakened cause he was fighting non stop and took a beating from UI Goku however Frieza wasn't. He wasn't even fighting for a couple of minutes. And we know that Dragon Ball characters recover their stamina and strength insanely quickly. After all Goku regain his stamina in the tournament in a couple of minutes multiple times.

Frieza was literally knocked the **** out by GoD Toppo. What do you mean he wasn't weakened?

 

[Peter1129]

He got time to rest unlike Jiren and Goku who were fighting non stop.

 

[AguilaR101]

Freeza most certainly was, we aren't going to assume he recovered to full strength between scenes after taking a heavy beatdown from Toppo and Jiren, heck he literally loses the form mid fight indicating he is nowhere at full power. It's like you think that just because he has the form he is ought to be fighting at full capacity.

 

[Omegas03]

No i'm willing to write off the scene and your interpretation of it as inconsistent like any reasonable person should, like you would write off the idea of wanking krillin to blue levels just because Goku felt the need to go into that form to overpower his KHH.

Except that was an sparring match and should by no means be compared to the last fight where Goku has been consistently shown to get stronger many times so his Base being comparable to his start of ToP SSJBKK level isn't far-fetched. I've thought of the whole Ep 131 being outlier the first times I saw it, though Goku has been getting stronger throught the whole ToP soo.. lol.

 

[Peter1129]

He lost his Golden form because he was straining himself trying to put even more energy than he could into the barrier to hold back Jiren energy wave. He was perfectly capable of repeatedly going into Golden Form to fight his enemies after resting for a few minutes.

Also Frieza doesn't even matter that much cause Android 17 doesn't get tired and Post-UI Base Goku was stronger than him.

 

[Peter1129]

@Omegas03 To be fair Episode 131 is pretty much outlier galore with only one feat being legit.

Outliers consist of Android 17 breaking his own Android Barrier which could no sell attacks from Anilaza and Base Frieza keeping up with an even stronger Jiren who overpowered his Golden form.

Only Goku being stronger than Frieza and 17 is consistent due to UIS limit breaking boosts.

 

[Omegas03]

Yeah, but Base Goku overpowering 17 isn't one of them. that was my point.

 

[Peter1129]

You ninja'd me before my edit.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

I have literally no clue what all this semi frenzied discussion is about and I doubt I wanna even find out seeing how deeply derailed the whole thread is. A little tip, taking that elsewhere may be good because it's becoming more and more tangentially related to the match up. I even forgot for a moment this was related at all to Broly and Vegito.

And my vote goes to Broly, unless his stated reasons where debunked at any moment and I couldn't see the justifications among the walls of chaining power growth and debate of unrelated things.

 

[Peter1129]

Well the thread is mostly derailed because the match is pretty much over. Also the reasoning is my first reply which is also the second comment on the thread.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

It still feels that whatever this all was could have easily gone somewhere else.

 

[Warren_Valion]

Well, the reason why Broly is winning is that of him scaling to Goku and Vegeta post ToP.

If people argue the scaling is inaccurate, then the votes could have on the chance of being voided.

So it is not derailing, it's on topic.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

It ended up discussing the validity of 17 and Freeza more than anything after the scaling chain was dropped, so... not really.

 

[Sptflcrw]

My point is, saying that Post-ToP SSJ Vegeta >>>>> Goku Black Arc SSJBKKx10 and SSJB Vegeta combined is absurd.

 

[Peter1129]

It's not absurd at all. Universe Survival Saga Pre-UIS SSB Goku alone can defeat both End of Future Trunks Saga SSBKKx10 Goku and SSB Vegeta by himself.

 

[Sptflcrw]

It's not absurd at all. Universe Survival Saga Pre-UIS SSB Goku alone can defeat both End of Future Trunks Saga SSBKKx10 Goku and SSB Vegeta by himself.

That's bullshit. Literally nothing supporting that.

 

[Peter1129]

Pre-UIS SSG Goku can keep up with Base Dyspo who was beating ToP Hit who stalemated End of Future Trunks Saga SSB Goku when he was weaker.

So Pre-UIS SSG Goku > End of Future Trunks Saga SSB Goku

Which means that Pre-UIS SSB Goku is at least 4x stronger than End of Future Trunks Saga SSBKKx10 Goku

 

[Sptflcrw]

At best that means ToP SSG Goku = Goku Black SSB Goku.

No it doesn't. How did you get to that conclusion? Actually, I don't care how you got to it.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

@Sptf Then .. Why are you debating ? If you didn't care you wouldn't have gone this far and ended it the moment he made the statement. Even so that's incredibly disrespectful and won't gain you any points during the debate.

 

[Warren_Valion]

At best that means ToP SSG Goku = Goku Black SSB Goku.
No it doesn't. How did you get to that conclusion? Actually, I don't care how you got to it.

Super Saiyan Blue is to Super Saiyan God what Super Saiyan is to Base.

It's considered an at least 40x difference on the wiki.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Wait a minute .... Couldn't you imply Post-UIO 2nd Base Goku > LSSJ2 Kefla ? After one of the LimIt Breaking Boosts he proceeded to, after being depowered to Base, being knocked around by multiple attacks which he stated outright to be stronger than anyone he fought prior, which would include LSSJ2 Kefla. This is before UIO3rd, MUI , and Enraged MUI.... Which all gave him incredible power-ups ? Not to mention when he was barely weak enough to go super saiyan (which suggest at that moment he was far weaker in Base then he was back when he tanked the hit from Jiren, and would likely be much stronger after fully recovering from the Tournament of Power) , he held back the blast that overpowered Blue-Level Allies such as 17.

 

[Peter1129]

Post-2nd UIS Base Goku being stronger than LSS2 Kefla via tanking attacks from Hint of True Power Jiren is definitely an outlier. He was getting beat up by this Jiren even while he was in Blue form. So him tanking attacks in base is definitely an outlier.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Likely.... But anyways:

SSJ1-2 Goku (Post-ToP) being > Pre-UI SSBKK Goku Level due to UIO3rd Boost being far more than merely a 40x boost is definitely believable. Toppo , Frieza , and even several characters felt Kale's power to be a threat [SSB Level characters], yet Base Goku took on SSJ2 Caulifilia in Base and actually was effecting her with his punches , Caulifilia and a Limit Broken Kale simultaneously while in SSJ2, made them fear his power by merely powering up to SSJ3 , and literally made her seem like a child as a SSG . This was after the first Ultra Instinct BTW, not the 2nd . Keep in mind the difference between SSJ2 and SSG to Blue is at bare minimum at a 80-100x increase without multipliers.

 

[Peter1129]

Post-UI Goku didn't fight LSS1 Kale as a SS2 or SS3 though. He only fought SS1 Kale as a SS2 and SS3 than fought LSS2 Kale as a SSG.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Okay. Thank you. But the point I'm making is that the power gained via each UIO boost is at bare minimum the equivalent of a Super Saiyan power-up, likely far more.

 

[Peter1129]

But yeah anyway I agree. SSG being merely stronger SSB after the third Limit breaking boosts is a huge low ball consider how big the previous two were.

The first one like you said is at least 80x-100x (depending on what the SS1 multiplier is) if not even higher scaling from Kale. The second one was double that since his SSBKK went from being almost as strong as the Spirit Bomb to being stronger than the Second UIS. So the third one logically should've been even bigger since not only did he break his limits with UIS but he also managed to tap into the Complete UI. Which means the third boost easily should've been the biggest out of all three of them.