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Bowser vs Joker Rematch

DatOneWeeb

DatOneWeeb

3,338
1,369
I took a look back at this thread here and saw that Joker's wincon had flaws. His wincon was with fear manipulation (Evil Smile) and then Ghastly Whail which kills anyone with fear. However Bowser resists fear manipulation as it's literally one of the aliments in Mario RPG. And that was the main reason for his win. Thus a rematch is needed.

Same rules as before.

Bowser has his Grand Stars and equipment.

Joker is in his end game key.

Speed is equalized.

Bowser:

Joker:

Inconclusive:
 
Not sure, he's just immune to it in-game which can affect all of his the other members. However I don't think the amount of people he affects will bypass his resistance.
 
Is there any kind of fearhax in the game that comes close to Universal+? If not, then even in-game immunity (which translates to resistance in this case) is NLF unless it's proven that he's actually immune.
 
Not exactly, however the ap to this is irrelevant because we don't usually say a character isn't resistant to a hax because a character of a certain tier didn't use them.
 
It's not a matter of AP. If there aren't feats of resisting mindhax of that scale, then they don't resist. All of Joker's hax are universal+ because of the way his powers work, so this just ends up the same as the last thread.
 
What do you mean by on that scale? His hax being universal+ doesn't negate Bowser's resistance, hax often bypasses someone's tier. Not to mention if Joker uses this ability even once, Bowser ressurects and removes Joker's ability to use fear manipulation.
 
It doesn't bypass Bowser's resistance. It plows right through it because of the sheer difference in scale. According to you, Bowser has no feats that has him resist mindhax on the level that Joker can use on him. His resistance is worth jack squat.

Actually, this reminds me. Bowser only resists because of the Safety Ring, but if that resistance is negligible compared to Joker's hax potency, then he can just as easily plow through Bowser's resistance to Death Manip since said resistance comes from there too. He doesn't need Ghastly Wail or fearhax. He just spams death AOEs everywhere.

Even if Bowser resurrects, Joker can just hax him into incapacitation with despair or sleep.
 
Different scale in terms of what? Again, Joker's hax being able to work on characters who are universal+ does not stop his resistances. This isn't exactly how we say if something plows through someones resistance.

Same reason as what I said above.

What stops Bowser from slowing down time, removing Joker's abilities, and sealing? Bowser can easily just passively resurrect himself, slow down time, remove Joker's Persona abilities, and seal him.
 
Joker's hax is universal+ via being directly powered by the same power that gave Big Baddie the ability to mindhax everything in the physical and cognitive universes, and works on characters that can resist that same level of mindhax. Bowser's resistance is incomparable because he has no resistance feats on that level. Thus, they get plowed through.

Joker's deathhax is one of his go-to spells, since the Curse element is his signature. The same applies to his debilitating ailments. Joker also resists power nullification since that's one of the ailments in P5 that are backed up by the power noted above. Resurrection just forces him to incap.

Time slow barely matters since it's resisted and most of Joker's stuff is AOE, all of his magic is thought-based, and he doesn't have to worry about hitting himself when spamming death spells all over the place. If Bowser gets close, he gets nailed by omnidirectional AOE around Joker. If Bowser stays still, he gets nailed by the spells manifesting at his location. Even moving around doesn't guarantee he doesn't get grazed, and that's all Joker needs for most of his hax to work.

Even if Bowser somehow dodges all of that, if he so much as touches Joker, he gets inflicted with Fear via Evil Touch. If he so much as looks at Joker, he gets inflicted with Fear via Evil Smile. Once he's afraid, he'll die to Ghastly Wail as long as he hears it.

Once Bowser resurrects and Joker figures he can't be killed normally, he'll resort to ailments.

- Dazzler will screw up his movements by making him severely dizzy, making it even harder to dodge everything and it only needs to be seen to work.

- Lullaby puts Bowser to sleep simply by being heard.

- Makajamaon makes Bowser forget how to fight.

- Joker speaks Ominous Words and Bowser suddenly wants to kill himself.

All of Joker's spells are thought-based activation and he can at least double his thought speed via Third Eye. Most of his go-to hax are either AOE or travel through sight or sound. How does Bowser make it through all of that?
 
Solacis:
No, we are not scaling Joker's abilites to Yaldy's hax/range. His "power source" does not allow us the scale their abilites at all. Everyone's resistance is also getting removed as well. You don't need feats of resisting an ability that worked on a universal+ character because hax is to supposed to bypass your tier. We don't scale it this way.

Same reasons as above + Bowser simply removes his ability to use death manipulation. Joker does not resist power nullification, not on his profile and even if it was, it's likely only due to the forget aliment which would only work as memory manipulation. One of his ways to resurrect is via time manipulation so there goes another chance even if incapped.

Joker only resists time stop, not time manipulation. This does matter because Bowser's sealing is going to be something very difficult for Joker to dodge. Bowser can also just completely bypass any of Joker's move via Slim as it works extremely similar to Mario's flip which flips you to another dimension, not allowing characters from other dimensions to interact with them. Bowser can also freely move while using this and still be able to use his hax. It's going to be very difficult for Joker to hurt Bowser.

Piccolo can restore anyone dizzy and asleep so that can be taken care of. Barry can also reflect projectiles. The forget aliment only stops people from being able to use Persona skills, so Bowser should still be able to use equipment.

Persona attacks aren't thought-based, he first summons then uses the move.

Bowser can easily just use slim to bypass any of his moves, slow down time, use a catch card to seal Joker, or transmute, remove his special moves, clone himself to keep Joker distraced/make all of the clones use the same move at the same time, transmute Joker into music notes by dancing (not something he can dodge), or use other equipment.
 
Catch Cards Are Soul Manipulation, not Sealing (Yes, I know they function exactly like Sealing) So I'm assuming his resurrection is through His time reversing items?
 
Catch Cards are both soul manipulation and sealing, it captures both your physical body and soul into the card. That's two of his ways to ressurect, retry clocks and earlier times restart the battle. Life Shroom will just continue the battle where he left off.
 
So if he revives with a retry clock then Ren won't even know that he killed Bowser in the first place, but Bowser will
 
Resisting time stop lets you resist time slow by default, since time stop's just a very potent time slow.
 
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