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Bowser vs Joker Rematch

Joker's mindhax extends to far more than just one.

I mean... don't we scale P5's mindhax and soulhax to cognition? And Yaldy mindhaxed nearly everyone in the universe. Ren and the PTs should be comparable via their own cognitions empowering their mindhax. That's well over 6 billion people. 6 billion people with at least a modicum of resistance due to being midhaxed via their Shadows?
~ Solacis​
Back to mindhax... The PTs' suits are products of their Willpower (Cognition), which specifically protects them from the effects of Cognition due to their personal wills of rebellion. All of Yaldy's hax is a product of Cognition. Yes, all of them, even the ones he didn't mindhax humanity into believing, as we later learn this is more than possible thanks to a certain someone's own cognition powers that he specifically inherited from Yaldy.
The PTs eventually strengthen their willpower enough to shrug off Yaldy's cognitions, so that would thus mean that they could shrug off his mindhax too. Which is just added resistance, since they could already do it before.

In P5R, they should be able to affect each other even with their level of resistance, so naturally, theirs would scale above Yaldy.
~ Solacis​
 
DatOneWeeb said:
Three if I'm correct, but Joker has only shown to affect one enemy. While yes, it is possible to affect all enemies with certain skills, the way Joker does it is by blasting several projectiles towards each enemy. Therfore it only works with one, but Joker affects several people by shooting a projectile to each enemy separately.
Click to expand...
I don't think status ailments can affect all three members of your party at once in RPG (Only 2), but that might just be game mechanics (Having all three of your party members turned into mushrooms in one attack would be pretty unfair after all)
 
Yeah, no. What Solaceo said is complete headcanon. Just because they have powers from the Metaverse does not mean they scale to the source at all. Power bestowal doesn't always mean you have the same powers from the source, and this is the case here. Nothing implies they have the exact same power at all. Hell, when has their suits ever been stated this? A lot of this just seems to be completely made up. Their clothing has never been stated nor implied to be the source of their resistances. Unless you have certain equipment, but we aren't reffering to those. The PT have not shown range similar to Yaldabaoth, nor the same abilites. I'd also say they do not resist his abilities. All of his empathic/mind manipulation related abilites always affect the PT. So overall, these arguments are pure headcanon.
 
1. One, Morgana states that their suits and awakening are a source of rebellion against the Palace's cognition. That's why literally every awakening takes place in a Palace, because they're rejecting that reality.

2. Not clothing, you're missing the point, it's the Cognition. Their clothing is just a physical manifestation of their rebellion.

3. The rest as he said are self explanatory, it is head canon.
 
Bowser resists his mind manipulation, I've already explained why shooting more than one projectile at your opponent =/= the range of affecting several people. The other argument was pure headcanon.
 
Er, no, not at all. You're trying to say Joker can simply stack his mind manipulation by firing the same spell more than once despite the fact that you can't stak mind manipulation in Persona 5.
 
I'm fine with the mental stuff bypassing, but everything else is a big no.

That said, didn't Joker win last time? Bowser is both, more mobile, and a better fighter, but Joker's hax outweighs his own.
 
Joker's argument for winning was with fear manipulation. Bowser resists this. Are we going to ignore how Bowser can just use things like Slim to just completely bypass any move he uses, literally suck away Joker's move which will nullify it, seal with a catch card, ressurect himself three times, etc.

The issues with Joker winning is that Bowser has his own ways to just bypass his moves and if ends up dying then a Retry Clock will start the battle over, giving Bowser more than one attempt + a bit of prior knowledge.
 
I think Bowser's best bet is a war of attrition. Create infinite space between the two and launch attacks, wearing down Joker.
 
Bowser resists: Fear, sleep, mind, death, empathic, and dizzy.

This means Joker at this point can only use the forget aliment. But that only makes Bowser forget how to use special moves, so items are still a thing. Even if Joker kills Bowser while in that state, he comes back, succs, no more forget aliment.


Meanwhile Bowser still has other options for harming Joker.
 
I think I might just vote for Bowser. I feel like the justification behind Joker's had potency is a bit flimsy because there just doesn't seem to be anything that logically backs up the idea that cognition gives the same amount of hax potency to everyone.
 
No, I'm saying Joker's mind manip alone surpasses his resistance via him shrugging off Yaldy's mindhax that got the entire planet. The very fact that their cognitions rebelled against his is why they weren't mindhaxed so easily?

Joker's attacks are thought-based, so he's not getting his attacks off first. Even if fearhax didn't work, Joker's attacks still hit the mind and soul. He could use Mudo/Hama and be done with it. Megidolaon would bypass all of his resistances.
 
That only applies to resistance, not their own power. Shrugging off his mind hax doesn't mean Joker himself has the exact same power. Especially since Yaldabaoth and Joker both mind hax differently.

Really? The entire "thought based" attack argument again? He can send out his attacks without saying it, but saying his attacks come out as fast as him thinking it is pretty doubtful as we never see that. Joker's attacks don't directly attack the soul, it's just that shadows are linked to their mind which Joker fights. Bowser resists death, so mudo/hama won't work. Megidoloan is just a standard almighty attack and doesn't bypass durability.
 
It's still classified under mindhax regardless, something they shrugged off. And again, considering Joker can hit the mind and soul it's no different.

Yes, because he does attack thought-based. And yes, we do see multiple times that Persona users can use their abilities without saying it, so the only thing left is thought. Everyone in Persona can attack the soul, as Shadows also come from the Sea of Souls, as stated when you talk to them in P5. Mudo might not, but Hama (a holy light) can. I never said Megidolan bypasses durabilty.
 
Pretty sure a grand total of zero attacking mind/soul examples regardless of fictions are treated as oneshots.
 
I'm sure that's what you're implying, right? That it plowing through mind/soul resistances means it insta-destroys them?
 
And that's still only a resistance, not something Joker himself can do. Joker's attacks do not directly attack the soul. Just because the enemies he fights are non-corporal does not mean he can attack the soul. I might as well say all of Bowser's attacks can also harm the soul because he has harmed ghosts.

And yet we have never seen Persona users attack thought based at all. Hama is still considered as death manipulation because while the attack looks different, it overall has the same results.
 
Like I said, as stated by Morgana Shadows have thoughts, minds, and feelings. That's all they are. Shadows also come from the Sea of Souls, like I've already said. So that's mind, and soul completely.

We have seen it before, Junpei did it, Yukari did it, and Makoto did it. Hama is still holy light, which he doesn't resist.
 
Yeah, that doesn't change what I said at all. Joker using his abilities against a non-corpeal only gives him non-physical interaction, it doesn't mean when Joker uses his attacks they directly go for the soul.

Holy light which gives him death manipulation. Again, it still does that same thing to the Curse equivalent. Just different elements.
 
DatOneWeeb is right, hitting an exposed soul/mind is very different from being able to attack on a mental/spiritual level.
 
In short, Bowser resists a large majority of Joker's durability neagting hax and that Joker does not attack the soul specifically.
 
Does he resist Joker's ability to mitigate his hax resistance?

Also Joker can directly attack the soul of something with his Almighty drains. Wouldn't work for other stuff though. He can attack the mind directly though.
 
Joker doesn't have resistance negation for his mind manipulation so he has no way to bypass Bowser's resistances.

Life Drain doesn't directly attack the soul, my reasons for this is for what I said above. Life Drain only takes away some HP which Bowser can just restore so it isn't good wincon. He can only attack the mind directly if he uses mind manipulation, or if he's fighting a cognitive shadow of someone which isn't the case here because this is the real Bowser.
 
Yes he does. Foul Breath/stagnant air mitigate the resistances on an opponent for all ailments, which includes physiological and mental attacks.

Spirit drain does directly attack the soul, and a case could be made for life drain as well.

Cognitive shadows are their own entities, I'm not sure why you are treating them as some weird off shoot in terms of mechanics.
 
Foul Breath does not negate your resistances, it only gives you a better chance to get affected by the aliment. This is because in the game, depending what move you're using, it has a higher or lower chance of that aliment actually working. Certain Persona's are resistant to certain aliments, Foul Breath does not break that resistance.

Spirit Drain only removes SP, you know, something that won't kill you if you run out. Life Drain only removes HP, it's a basic move in an RPG that removes someones HP and uses it themself.

Because Palace Owners/Shadows of people are linked to their minds. If their shadow is killed, they get a mental shutdown which won't happen here because this isn't Bowser's shadow.
 
Foul Breath makes them more susceptible to the ailment. Similar thing to IRL resistances to disease. If I have pretty good standard resistances to catching the flu but something makes me more susceptible, it will increase the odds of me getting hit. The net result is the ailment being stronger against the target. Unless Bowser's resistances completely blow Joker's potency out of the water, I fail to see how it be ineffective.

Being sapped of stamina is still pretty daming, I never said it was a one shot or anything like that.

Oh yeah of course, but Joker can still use his mind hax. I thought you were implying his moves won't work on anything but shadows.
 
That's a false equivalence. Certain Shadow's or Persona's are outright resistant to certain status aliments. Foul Breath does not break the resistances. The problem with that example is that shadows (with some exceptions) are not resistant to these aliments. It was agreed in a CRT that shadows aren't resistant to these aliments. So overall, you're saying that a certain disease can bypass your standard resistance when shadows aren't resistant to them. And when they are, Foul Breath does nothing. Bowser with his equipment is also immune (in-game) to these abilities, so it's essentially the same case. Especially since Joker can only affect one person at a time while Bowser resists 2-3 at a time.

Then why argue it? It's a bad wincon for Joker because it'll take a long time to drain his HP, and he has a lot more stamina than Joker does (Joker fights for hours, meanwhile Bowser has for several days).
 
Which CRT was this? Shadows have inherent resistances and that is the whole in game reasoning for ailments hitting their targets yet having no effect. The move doesn't just fizzle for no reason despite hitting its target. Foul breath increases the chances of any one ailment hitting it's target be increasing said things susceptibility to the ailment. It's not a false equivalence, in this scenario Bowser will become more susceptible to whatever ailment Joker plans to use after casting Foul Breath. That is literally what the move does "increase target's susceptibility.". The mechanics of the move aren't going to change and fizzle on Bowser, it will infect him and make him more susceptible.

No, Joker can affect up to 4-5 things at a time with his various hax. He possesses single target and multiple target variants on his spells.

Because it can contribute to Joker's chances of winning.
 
Bump

It was in DarkGrath's revisions. Shadows do not inherit resistances, the reason for the aliments not always working are purely game mechanics. Otherwise everyone in Pokémon or any other rpg gains an automatic resistance because status aliments don't always affect characters. Again, these are only game mechanics and not resistances. Foul Breath isn't resistance negating. It raises the probability of an aliment working but it still doesn't negate a shadow's resistance. If a shadow has resistance to say, sleep manipulation, then foul breath does not bypass it and any sleep based attacks will still not work. Hell, things like raising the probability of an aliment working is already common in RPG's, yet they still don't grant resistances. So no, Foul Breath won't do jack here. Bowser still resists his mind manipulation.

Look at the I have sent above. Joker's moves involve using the same attack on several opponents. If it was a large single blast then sure, but this isn't the case here. Joker shooting the same projectile to several enemies =/= affecting several enemies at once. This will basically just be Joker shooting the same move that only affects one person over and over with each one not affecting Bowser.

So let me once again adress Bowser's wincons.

Resistances: Self-explanatory

Slim: Bowser is able to flip his body, allowing him to completely bypass any attack Joker uses.

Perception Manipulation: Allows Bowser to have a higher success at dodging/hitting Joker.

Catch Cards: Seals Joker body and soul.

Duplication: Bowser can duplicate himself at least 4 times and potentially just grab Joker, making him immobile since Bowser is large enough to do this already and Joker won't break free due to his inferior lifting strength. He can also use the same item several times at once when doing this.

Power Nullification: If Bowser jumps on Joker, then one of his abilities gets removed. He can also just suck it away from if he sees it being used once.

Resurrection: Bowser can ressurect himself three times. Life Shroom, Retry Clock, and Earlier Times. Giving Bowser three attempts of this fight, with minor prior knowledge.

Transmutation: Can turn Joker into blocks or music notes.

Empathic Manipulation: Can make Joker feel sad and start crying.
 
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