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Bowser vs Joker Rematch

That's not how mindhax potency works at all. What's this shit about a blast or wave? As long as the mindhax comes from a single spell, it counts to the number of targets affected in total.

Besides that, Yaldabaoth's mindhax and cognition affected all of humanity, even affecting the Shadows in the Collective Unconscious. Joker and the Phantom Thieves resist that. Meanwhile, they can affect each other with their own mindhax in P5R. That's straight-up mindhax capable of affecting billions. Bowser isn't resisting that.

Perception Manip, resisted. Mind and soul manip, resisted. Empathic Manip, resisted.

The duplication argument hinges on Joker being unable to... what? Dodge? Or I dunno, equip Repel Phys or use Tetrakarn and Bowser bounces right off him.

Bowser can't jump on Joker. Joker is significantly more agile, and again, he has Repel Phys or Tetrakarn. Bowser would just hit himself.

Joker incaps with most of his ailments. Despair would make Bowser want to give up and kill himself. Forget would make Bowser forget his skills and arsenal.

Transmutation could work, but how is it applied?
 
It is. Stop making me repeat myself. It's literally just Joker shooting the exact same attack several times at each enemy. This is NOT affecting someone several times with a single attack. I need to see scans of characters resisting their own mind manipulation.

Perception Manipulation is resisted? How? I don't see resistance to perception manipulation anywhere. Never argued Bowser using mind manipulation, nor soul manipulation.

Ah yes, Joker is definitely going to have an easy times against 4 Bowser's, all of which can use perception manipulation or use any item. Grabbing isn't exactly hitting someone, but this is also assuming he has those equipped or starts using said move.

So we're just going to assume Joker will incap? He only spares when recruiting a shadow (which he kills if not working), negotiating (which doesn't work here), or in certain circumstances when affecting a real person. Joker will definitely not spare Bowser and instead go for the kill. Allowing Bowser to ressurect himself, have little prior knowledge, and ending the fight quicker.

As I've said already, he can also just suck away Joker's abilities which isn't an actual physical attack nor projectile. But Joker being more agile is definitely debatable. Bowser has shown to be very agile in Super Mario Galaxy.

Bowser can use dark magic, which affected the entire Mushroom Kingdom, or by dancing which doesn't need to actually hit the opponent. Bowser still has Catch Cards, which automatically lock on to an opponent which Joker won't be dodging. And again, Slim bypasses anything Joker does. He won't he able to see Bowser either.

Edit: Where does resistance to perception manipulation come from?
 
Again, it is not. Nothing you said disproves the fact.

The PT's already resist perception manipulation via being in a palace, a users personal subjective perception of the world, and resist it without cognition. So yes, he resists it. Four Bowsers means nothing in the face of AOES, AOE Multi-Hit attacks, along with him being able to summon multiple Personas. Along with the fact that Persona's are getting AE Type 1, good luck hitting them.

He's an RPG character, so whatever he does is unknowable. Regardless, there's no reason to assume he wouldn't simply place him under one of his many status ailments. Suck away his abilities? Sure, that could work, if that works on his soul. While Joker can physically nullify his physical, magic, and evasion attempts with Binds.

Joker's attacks spawn where he thinks, including AOES, so Joker spams attacks with no travel speed that Bowser cannot dodge.
 
Perception Manipulation is resisted because Joker and co. weren't affected by Yaldabaoth making all of humanity believe that bones erupting from the ground and raining blood is totally normal.

Uh, yeah. Bowser can't lay a hand on him. Even if he does, Joker can switch Personas and cast Tetrakarn with a thought. The moment Bowser lays a hand on him, Joker switches to a Repel Phys Persona or uses Tetrakarn.

Joker does whatever is most likely to work. The moment Bowser dies and comes back, Joker is smart enough to switch to incap methods. He's not going to brute-force it.

Since when has Bowser shown the ability to suck away abilities tied directly to a person's mind and soul? Legitimate question.

There is no way in hell Bowser is more agile than Joker, who consistently performs complex acrobatic maneuvers mid-combat with casual ease.

What's dark magic going to do? Is it the transmutation you were talking about?

As for Slim, what does it entail? I can't find it on Bowser's profile.
 
Milly Rocking Bandit said:
Again, it is not. Nothing you said disproves the fact.
The PT's already resist perception manipulation via being in a palace, a users personal subjective perception of the world, and resist it without cognition. So yes, he resists it. Four Bowsers means nothing in the face of AOES, AOE Multi-Hit attacks, along with him being able to summon multiple Personas. Along with the fact that Persona's are getting AE Type 1, good luck hitting them.

He's an RPG character, so whatever he does is unknowable. Regardless, there's no reason to assume he wouldn't simply place him under one of his many status ailments. Suck away his abilities? Sure, that could work, if that works on his soul. While Joker can physically nullify his physical, magic, and evasion attempts with Binds.

Joker's attacks spawn where he thinks, including AOES, so Joker spams attacks with no travel speed that Bowser cannot dodge.
Click to expand...
Am I really going to have to repeat myself again? We. Do. Not. Measure. Potency. In. Using. The. Same. Move. Over. And. Over. That's not even logical. Explain how this even applies.

That's not how perception manipulation works at all. Read the page for it, this isn't how it even works. Hell, this isn't even Bowser's perception manipulation as he amps his own. AoE's are useless when Bowser uses Slim. He literally becomes untouchable due to being so thin wheb using this. He also becomes invisible. Bowser doesn't need to attack the Persona's, if Joker dies then they're useless.

That's awful logic, you cannot pick what he uses first simply because he's an RPG character, that's an assumption. You need to objectively prove what he starts with. Otherwise this what Joker can do, rather than what he will do at the start. Considering how Bowser can affect Boo's and souls, then yes. His Persona's literally go bye-bye. Also, Piccolo can simply remove Bowser's status effects even when affected.

Bowser doesn't need to dodge it, teleportation or Slim can bypass it.
 
That's awful logic, you cannot pick what he uses first simply because he's an RPG character, that's an assumption. You need to objectively prove what he starts with. Otherwise this what Joker can do, rather than what he will do at the start. Considering how Bowser can affect Boo's and souls, then yes. His Persona's literally go bye-bye. Also, Piccolo can simply remove Bowser's status effects even when affected.

Except that is exactly how we treat RPG characters in VS matches. If there's no indication of what move he'd use first, we assume he'd go with the most logical move based on his knowledge and intelligence. Don't like it, then take it up with staff.

Personas are more than just intangible souls, they're incorporeal. Their "essence" exists as a Type 1 AE located in Joker's brain. Destroy their forms all you want, they'll just come back in an instant.

Bowser actually has to use his items to cure himself, but that's assuming that he can move to try. Ailments like Despair, Shock, Freeze, Fear, Sleep and Confusion all immobilize in one way or another. Unless Bowser can cure himself without needing to move, then his cure items are a non-factor.
 
No, we do not treat RPG characters like this. This doesn't even just apply to RPG characters, this applies to any other video game character who's never shown to have a starting move. Do not cherrypick. "Don't like it, then take it up to the staff." A rule that staff hasn't made.

You realize I'm not arguing for Bowser to be able to destroy them right? Bowser's power nullification literally removes the battle icon in which you use to pick your move. If Bowser sees a Persona being used, he inhales, and thus disables him from using Persona's. This won't kill the Persona's.

Piccolo removes Bowser's status effects without Bowser needing to move.
 
Staff members have flat out said that's the case. If you think I'm wrong, have one say otherwise and I'll concede.

Bowser has never shown to be capable of sucking away the abilities of entities tied directly to mind and soul, much less Type 1 AEs. It's the same as trying to Power Null someone's ability to breathe. Assuming he can because of game animations is game mechanics, if not NLF.

Piccolo can't cure status effects that don't appear in Bowser's source material, nor can it cure effects with significantly higher potency than what it's been shown to work on. Bowser hasn't dealt with Despair, afaik, and no way he can cure mental ailments as potent as Joker's.
 
I need actual evidence instead of just saying this.

I'm sorry, what? This is outright an exucse for Bowser not being able to nullify Persona's. If something like a forget aliment can disable Persona's (which don't affect the soul) then Bowser's power nullification definitely works here. Hell, these abilities even work against characters such as Madame Flurry who's already a soul. Not only is Bowser able to negate against abilities that people have on their own, but even simple things that don't require actual power such as jumping. Type 1 AE is irrelevant here since he's affecting the user, not the Persona.

Joker's potency is already arguable itself since you haven't provided evidence of characters affecting themselves. Bowser already resists sleep manipulation and ice manipulation on his own. Despair is just empathic manipulation which Bowser resists. Joker's mind manipulation is still up for debate. Everything else gets resisted since it only works on a single person. This only allows Joker using brainwash, confusel and forget.

As for your comment I didn't see.

That is not perception manipulation, that's literally just mind manipulation as all he did was make everyone else think this is normal. This isn't even Bowser's perception manipulation, his comes from viewing time slower (this isn't time manipulation).

Joker won't know Bowser is ressurecting, two of his ressurection abilities are via time travel. Joker won't be aware of this at all, while Bowser can.

And you think Bowser doesn't? When fighting Mario, who is already extremely agile, he's able to easily jump at great distances and preform several acrobatic moves. Joker isn't as agile as you claim to be. All we mostly see are flips and dodges. He isn't like Spider-Man.

Black Magic is one of Bowser's main way to transmute. This affected the entire Mushroom Kingdom, turning Toads into bricks and other objects. Dancing is another way, in which his opponents blow up and turn into musical notes.

Slim essentially flips Bowser into being completely flat, it works similar to Mario's flip. This allows Bowser to completely bypass anything, as it's shown to bypass enemies, projectiles, and objects. It also makes him invisible.
 
Solacis said:
@cal That's just pure ignorance.
Click to expand...
Beating him is literally a group effort. Same with like, all JRPGs. You canonically wreck his shit with a party. It's not ignorance at all. That's like saying because the FF5 cast can survive in the Void, and can resist Neo-Exdeath's attacks, but can't resist that one boss that EEs you, that means the one boss > Neo-Exdeath.

But instead I guess Futaba can control the world with her mind if she wanted to.
 
@Cal

It is ignorance because I literally explain how they're superior in the context of mindhax and resistance, while you roll in and say "nah man" without so much as a counter-argument.
 
@Cal


but Yaldaboth stomped the Phantom thieves as a group. Joker one shot him once getting Satanael though. it wasn't really a group effort.
 
I know, I was just saying that joker with satanael is above yaldy.

Since Cal said that Yaldy was above any indevisual phantom thief. like pre satanael joker loses. But still.


as for who I think wins.. neutral for now.
 
@Weeb

It's not an excuse. All Persona ailments affect the mind and soul. Plus, even without that, Forget nullifies Personas by making the user forget how to use them.

What evidence do I have to give? It's blatantly shown in P5R that they can affect each other. There's no further debating that point. So no, Bowser does not resist any of Joker's mindhax.

Joker can also slow his perception of time with the Third Eye, as shown when he goes to the batting cages.

Even so, as I've established, Joker can easily incap with mindhax. Even if Joker follows up with a killing blow every time he mindhaxes Bowser into submission, minor knowledge Bowser gains from coming back to life is pointless since he has no means to avoid Joker's mindhax in the first place.

So? What feat of acrobatics puts Bowser above Joker? Jumping high? Joker jumps several storeys into the air during the Shido fight. Flips, airborne maneuvers and perfect landings? His escape out of the Casino window during the prologue. He is also smaller and more flexible than Bowser.

Slim doesn't protect against AOEs if it's just complete flatness. Plus, Slim isn't listed on Bowser's profile. Neither is Flip on Paper Mario's. How do I know the extent of this ability?

Transmutation is Bowser's only chance, but based on his fights against Mario and co., it's not even close to an in-character move in a 1v1 fight.
 
This is the epitome of gameplay and story segregation. There is zero lore based reason for any of the Phantom Thieves, except for maybe Joker with Satanel, to have mental capacities surpassing Yaldy.
 
Cal, maybe you should actually make a counterargument instead of spouting "there is no reason for it" over and over.

Let me spell it out for you:

Yaldabaoth's mindhax stems from his manipulation of Cognition. The Phantom Thieves' suits are explicitly stated by Morgana to be a product of their willpower to resist the effects of cognitive distortions.

By the end-game, the Phantom Thieves have reached a level of willpower that they can shrug off all of Yaldabaoth's Cognition hax, including his mindhax.

Later, as shown in Persona 5 The Royal, they can affect each other with their own mindhax. I cannot be any more clear about this.
 
Reread the first line of what I said.

Gameplay and story segregation.

Give me one good reason why Ann or Ryuji of all people should have their mental prowess, not their resistance, which has good reason, be superior to Yaldabaoth?

The correct answer is that there is no answer. It's gameplay.
 
aight, I've been mentioned a couple times in this thread. what bullcrap did I say that's being brought up?
 
The real cal howard said:
Reread the first line of what I said.

Gameplay and story segregation.

Give me one good reason why Ann or Ryuji of all people should have their mental prowess, not their resistance, which has good reason, be superior to Yaldabaoth?

The correct answer is that there is no answer. It's gameplay.
Click to expand...
Who are you to decide the correct answer? As far as I'm aware, you're neither a knowledgeable, nor a participant in the verse's CRTs.

The Phantom Thieves' hax potencies are supported by clear feats of affecting each other despite their explicitly defined feats of resisting Yaldabaoth's own hax, following the logic defined clearly by the verse's lore.

You are literally spouting nothing but guesswork with no feats or logic to back it up, and you expect people to believe it?
 
I don't have to be intimate with Persona to know a blatant versus debating fallacy. Kinda something you need to know once you're on a versus debating site for five years. You keep on using gameplay feats when the story doesn't support the claims your making. If Kasumi for example had a story element where she outperform's Yaldy's control, sure. I'd shut up instantly. But you're literally using gameplay mechanics. Again, I'm not doubting their resistances, nor am I doubting them having the abilities. I'm saying the potency doesn't scale to Yaldabaoth.

Btw, my best friend at college is in love with the Persona series to the point where we talk about it every time we meet up, and one of the main characters in the story I've been working on for the past 6 years is visually inspired by Futaba. I may not have played the games but don't think I don't have a vested interest in the series.
 
Literally name one game mechanic I'm using. Cognition is an in-universe power system. Every feat I've brought up has supporting statements in the story.

The source of the Phantom Thieves' resistance? Morgana explains it even before Ryuji awakens. The Phantom Suits are formed and powered by willpower, existing to defend them from Cognitive distortions.

Yaldabaoth's mindhax is a product of Cognition? He blatantly admits that he's rigged the game from the start, making it so that humanity would always come to forget that the Phantom Thieves ever existed.

The Phantom Thieves come to resist the effects of Yaldabaoth's Cognition? Yaldabaoth used Cognition to erase the Phantom Thieves from existence, which they later come back from. In the Velvet Room, the Phantom Thieves renew their resolve, granting them enough willpower to resist Yaldabaoth's existence erasure. Furthermore, due to the nature of Cognition, Yaldy's EE is passive once activated, so the fact that the Thieves could come back to reality and not immediately get erased again is further proof that they now resist the effects of his cognition.

In P5R, no spoilers, but the Phantom Thieves are shown to be capable of affecting each other with their hax, including mindhax.

Just because you love the series and talk about it a lot does not mean you are knowledgeable on the subject to the extent needed for this discussion. Everyone that participated in the revision threads love the series, yet we obviously didn't come up with all this in a day.
 
I'm sorry, what? This is outright an exucse for Bowser not being able to nullify Persona's. If something like a forget aliment can disable Persona's (which don't affect the soul) then Bowser's power nullification definitely works here. Hell, these abilities even work against characters such as Madame Flurry who's already a soul. Not only is Bowser able to negate against abilities that people have on their own, but even simple things that don't require actual power such as jumping. Type 1 AE is irrelevant here since he's affecting the user, not the Persona.

Ailments and attacks, once more, do damage the soul. Reminder that Shadows exist within the users Sea of Souls, and their Personal Unconsciousness. Shadows make this clear every single time to talk to them, without fail. And again, unless he can pluck the moves from Joker's mind and soul, especially on the level of an abstract, that will not matter. Joker can similarly do the same thing, nullify your ability to attack, use magic, or even move. How fast can Bowser do it? Joker does it by a thought, and can use all three of those Binds at once.

Joker's potency is already arguable itself since you haven't provided evidence of characters affecting themselves. Bowser already resists sleep manipulation and ice manipulation on his own. Despair is just empathic manipulation which Bowser resists. Joker's mind manipulation is still up for debate. Everything else gets resisted since it only works on a single person. This only allows Joker using brainwash, confusel and forget.

Joker's ailments, once more, do not work on one person, that's quite literally game animation, which varies from game to game. In Persona 5, it visually shows the blast hitting each target (which again, stems from one spell), but is differed in Persona 3 (in Persona 3 it is instant) and 4. Even if he did resist those things, Joker can Ice Break, or Foul Breath him, reducing his resistance to nothing. Even if those three ailments are all he has left, they are still just as dangerous, and with AOE attacks such as Brain Buster, Memory Blow, and Mind Slice, which inflict these on all foes, Bowser can easily be incapped.

Everything else Sol handled.
 
@Solacis Aliments only affect souls because they are already exposed. Otherwise I can say the exact same thing for Bowser due to already being able to affect Boo's. It isn't considered soul manipulation, just NPI. Attacking the mind only works against people's cognitive version which only works after destroying their shadow which isn't the case here.

Burden of proof is on you. P5R isn't even out here yet, so showing a video of this scenerio would help.

Isn't Bowser's first time fighting someone with perception amplification, plus other Pixls increase his speed as well. This isn't something Joker can remove since he would need to kill the source.

You have yet to prove Joker's starting move, no mod here as claimed that we can just assume what an RPG character will do at the start. It's completely biologic to just assume Joker will do this move when he can do literally anything else. Why would he use this move? Why wouldn't he use something else? We need actual evidence of him starting with a move, otherwise these are just assumptions. Bowser can teleport, hide inside his shell (which isn't part of his body), or use Slim to bypass these moves. We're also assuming Bowser is just going to stay and let it happen when he can finish the fight himself with something like a sealing or transmutation which Joker won't be dodging either of due to Catch Cards automatically locking on to your opponent without actually needing to travel and dark magic having huge range/Music Keys not needing to hit your opponents. All of these options are fast and will finish Joker that allow him to dodge.

Hmm, how about Bowser being able to jump higher than Mario and Luigi who already can jump several stories high while doing several flips and attacks mid-air while landing perfectly DURING combat against Mario/Luigi. Mario and Luigi are a lot more agile than Joker, being able to perform several jumps and attacks that involve both of them to spin their bodies tens if not more to attack, roll into a perfect ball and being able to bounce off enemies, etc. He's even able to keep up with a row of enemies in front and above coming at him all at once while Dark Bowser swoops in as well. He's also able to completely from himself into a perfect ball, being able to use his shell as a round shield. Yeah, no. Joker is not as agile.

Slim does protect against AoE, it's perfect flatness to the point even omnidirectional attacks just completely go through him. Not everything Bowser has is on his profile due to appearing in many many games, however the CRT sandbox currently displays this. Flip is on normal Mario's profile, Paper Mario and Mario are the same canon with Paper Jam being a seperate one.

Mario is resistant to transmutation due to being unaffected by his magic and Kamek's, of course he won't use it. He's used it many times on Toads.

Other than his mind manipulation still being debatable on potency, his other abilites are completely resisted due to affecting one person at a time. He still has power nullification which still works against Joker.

@Milky Rocking Bandit As said above, hitting an exposed soul isn't soul manipulation. GyroNutz already said this. As for power nullification, coming from his mind and soul is literally irreverent. Bowser can already remove abilites people are born with or even simple attacks such as jumping or use items. If simple things such as forgetting how to summon a Persona can stop Joker, which only affects his mind, then Bowser's can work. I've already explained so many times why this is irreverent. Type 1 AE is irrelevant when this DOES NOT affect the Persona, this affects Joker himself which is needed to bypass Type 1 AE. Joker's moves can still be dodged and reacted, so his attacks aren't as fast as being thought based. Maybe sending them out, but the speed of the attack itself is a no. Mario and Luigi themselves can't bypass this.

"Game animations" is an awful argument. The animation outright displays how this attack works, do not make headcanons and start claiming that Joker can just make a blast large enough to affect everyone. Until proven otherwise, this is how the attacks go. You cannot scale Persona 3 and 4 because these are different protagonist and different games. Ice Break as far as I'm aware doesn't affect someone with complete immunity in-game, which is the case for Bowser here. I've already argued against Foul Breath above, which still doesn't negate complete resistances in the game. Foul Breath in Pesona 5 doesn't remove Shadow's "block" resistant.

Joker still has no ways to bypass sealing or transmutation.
 
Joker should resist matter manip which transmutation is a subset of due to cognition but revisions are slow
 
Not really, hell he has to quickly leave a palace when being destoryed. Palace owners could have matter manipulation, but they don't have attacks that involve it.
 
Yaldy conceptually nuked the PTs from all of history and they just came back.

It's listed as mid-godly rn but that's because it wasnt updated with the high-godly revisions
 
Huh? It's been agreed here that we don't count Yaldabaoth erasing them as Regenerationn, who added this ability back?
 
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