Blind and idiot tier 0 vs Smartest tier 0

[-BANLK-]

Azathoth vs Mathiverse

Win by SBA.

Since omnipotence is not accepted in this wiki, I would want some rational answer as to who is the strongest tier 0.

 

[MrDrProfessorPatricio]

Azathoth is gonna be nerfed hard very soon iirc due to some debunkings

 

[AlexZiggy]

Eh... yes? No? It depends on what you even take as being "Azathoth"

 

[MYHERO]

Regardless, on if Azz will stay as tier 0 or not, I am pretty sure Mathi woud still stomp him due to being insanely above baseline. This is probably the strongest character on the wiki now.

 

[Overlord4896]

it hasnt been really debunked, its more of an interpratation. even then it will just be yog and azzy switching places i think or its the both of them being the same thing basically. eitherway do this matchup after the mythos CRT.

 

[MYHERO]

Or just don't do this match up at all, the mathiverse is probs gonna be the stronkest character in VBW.

Or I'm just being delusional and hyping it up

 

[Overlord4896]

i highly doubt that tbh. atleast from what i have seen, it doesnt seem to be anywhere near something like the outer gods, much less yog and azzy.

 

[MYHERO]

I can't explain it to well, but I'll give it a shot on explaining why it's pretty high into tier 0. Hold on

 

[Overlord4896]

sounds good.

 

[MYHERO]

So basically from all the glib glosh I've gathered from vs central and the profile, it seems to be that it contains all mathematical theories. Even the ones that are able to get you to tier 1-A to 0 like sets and cardinals. The yoga ball encompasses all of this and probably exceeds it to as said by the fact that terms of outside and within being unable to be applied to all of this. So it's definitely higher into tier 0.

On that note, other then it's profile I have no knowledge about this thing, and plus I'm definitely no expert in this new tiering system. Someone better on both fronts will probably explain way better why it's so stronk sorry.

 

[Overlord4896]

i am not that impressed going off from that descritpion, the outer gods are beyond quite literally all concepts and anything that could bind them, which include maths which they are compeltely transended off. then you have yog and azzy who are all of reality and beyond with the both of them completely encompassing it while being completely transended of it. i pretty sure you know of this quote about yog "It was an All-in-One and One-in-All of limitless being and self--not merely a thing of one Space-Time continuum, but allied to the ultimate animating essence of existence's whole unbounded sweep--the last, utter sweep which has no confines and which outreaches fancy and mathematics alike".

 

[MYHERO]

The thing is, this tiering system will not accept statements such as that, " Ôåæ Similarly, existing "beyond all logic and mathematics" does not allow to automatically qualify for this tier, as such a statement is fundamentally unprovable in the context of an indexing wiki. At most, such feats can be quantified based on how far mathematics extend into the verse in question."

What makes Mathi special in this case is that it explicitly describes all of what it encompasses, which would include those fancy things that would boost one to outerverse levels and beyond. And the fact that the one who wrote it is a mathematician himself and has written books about set theories and cardinals, which is what the new tiering system functions on in the first place. But even then, Mathi's tiering with this kind of stuff is also being brought into question rn, tho I am fairly certain the people for the mathiverse will be able to properly defend it.

 

[Overlord4896]

i saw the argument for his tier and i am not entierly convinced tbh, it just doesnt hold up to the standards of the wiki, the justfications for it i mean. as for your first point, it has shown in the cthulhu mythos that it does contain such cardinals of differnces in the form of the gates and the differences between the great old ones and the outer gods for example. the mythos does speak alot about mathamatics and gemotry in the form of dimensions and the such and it is described throughout these parts that many beings, not only the outer gods, are completely transended over these concepts. however, lovecraft was dogshit at math IIRC so from an author standpoint i could see why that would be an issue. also i am pretty sure its agreed on this wiki that these statements are valid which is why yog is tier 0 for example.

 

[MYHERO]

I have no interest in Cthulhu Mythos, so I am not saying that your whole verse isn't valid. I am saying that the kind of statements you have provided will not fly in this wiki as it seems to be just baseline without any clarifications of what aspects of mathematics it specifically transcends. Just to reiterate, your specific statement doesn't qualify, not others that you might have on you in person.

And I'm not too sure where you got that info that being beyond mathematics is valid for tier 0 as the newest system completely undermines that. Because if that was the case then the outer gods all should've been tier 0, which is contradicted by how VBW is treating it as even Az is not even gonna be tier 0 anymore.

 

[Overlord4896]

not neccsarily, the azzy thing is still being decided on and even then it is just literally a switch of positions where yog will be tier-0. the statement i provided does kinda fly in this wiki as it is literally one of the justifications used for yog's tier and is the quote on his profile. obviously there is much more to it but it is one of the justifications. also, correct me if i am wrong but isn't the mathiverse's tier comes from the fact that he encompasses all of mathematics?

 

[AlexZiggy]

But anyways, the CM revisions are still ongoing, so I wouldn't want to rush to conclusions

 

[MYHERO]

"not neccsarily, the azzy thing is still being decided on and even then it is just literally a switch of positions where yog will be tier-0."

It doesn't matter about the specific intricacies on if Azz is really gonna be downgraded or not. I brought it up because my initial point was that how it is being treated on VBW. And since you say that other outer gods are beyond mathematics but at the same time VBW is even questioning the validity of tier 0 Azz, it's obviously a contradiction of logic there. Being beyond math alone is not enough here because if it was other outergods would've been tier 0 as well.

"the statement i provided does kinda fly in this wiki as it is literally one of the justifications used for yog's tier and is the quote on his profile. obviously there is much more to it but it is one of the justifications."

That is what I just said. I'm not saying that the reasoning that Yog being beyond mathematics is invalid, I made it clear I have no interest in CM and therefore I am not very knowledgeable on it. I'm saying that if you just take that specific statement alone and try to justify tier 0 in its newest system, it will not fly.

"also, correct me if i am wrong but isn't the mathiverse's tier comes from the fact that he encompasses all of mathematics?"

Yes but it specifically describes which parts of math it specifically embodies, which are sets and cardinals. This makes it have its tier 0 status because it's not just a simple "it's beyond cool math games!!!" statements.

 

[Overlord4896]

you do present a fair point regarding about the tier of the outer gods. however i am pretty sure that azzy is most likely staying tier 0. anyway i used that statment about yog to show that these justifications already exist for these beings in the mythos from the outer gods up, the justifcations of being beyond mathmatics that is. as for your last point, the mathiverse's tier is being put into question right now as some stuff about are him are not that clear and his justfications are really meh. cardinals and sets are also shown in the cthulhu mythos in the form of the gates, the difference between them, and the difference between beings like hypnos who transended infinite 1-A realms only to be smashed by something beyond the first gate. these statements have alot of things backing them in the mythos. anyway we should close this thread until both CRT's are done for the mythos and the questioning that is happening for the mathiverses's tier.

 

[MYHERO]

Yeah I'm not denying whatever you say about CM's tier. I am merely just comparing your one specific statement compared to Mathi's and why the latter is simply more likely to let it fly in VBW's cardinal system, while the other needs more context to hold it up. But I think Mathi's justifications are perfectly fine and is pretty blatant tier 0. It's whether the standard would allow it that is being put into question, not the reasoning being flawed itself. And even then Ultima is holding his ground pretty well.

 

[Overlord4896]

i agree. i wish him the best of luck.

 

[EnnardTrap1987]

I'm guessing Azathoth is getting downgraded to like, 1-A. The Cthulhu Mythos isn't even Azathoth's dream. It never states this in any of Lovecraft's books. It just says it has some "weird dreams" or something along those lines. If Azathoth wakes up, It'll probably just go on a killing spree.

Yog-Sothoth is more powerful than Azathoth.

 

[Overlord4896]

not so sure about that, we havent really come up with a consensus upon the matter. even azzy was like it is most likely that Azathoth is in top considering the greater cosmology. Azathoth being downgraded to High-1A is a big stretch imo.

 

[Agnaa]

Why is there a match happening for a location profile?

 

[MYHERO]

All this talk just to find out Mathiverse isn't even a valid character

 

[Overlord4896]

location profile?

 

[Agnaa]

Yeah, it's not a character, it's a location.

It has no durability.

 

[Overlord4896]

damn, your right.......... will shit.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

Classification: Mathematical Universe, Set of all Mathematical Structures.

 

[ShivaShakti]

Supreme archetype Yog and Mathiverse will be pretty much equal

 

[MYHERO]

I know I shouldn't throw in extra fuel to the flames, but how so? Is it relating to the idea of being beyond mathematical concepts, or is there something more to that?

 

[ShivaShakti]

I know I shouldn't throw in extra fuel to the flames, but how so? Is it relating to the idea of being beyond mathematical concepts, or is there something more to that?

More complex than that.

I'd say they are on par because they are both an "Absolute Infinity" in a sense. What I mean by this is everything, every system, concept, etc. are extensions of them to the most abstract and metahpysical level. Everything that was, is, or ever will be is a part of them. They ARE the system with the amount of things to encompass.

...That being said they are not the strongest by any means. Me and my son (dont ask) talk about tiering alot and he actually made a tiering system Aeyu and some of the others approved of, and well. Mathiverse and Yog are examples of the second highest level you can get. The way you get higher than them both is to be not transcendent of the systems they encompass but unnattached. The word unnattached in this case is very important and specific.

 

[Overlord4896]

Yog is far beyond mathiverse for many reasons. However, aren't both of them completely separate of their systems already? They completely encompass thier systems and everything is a mere facet of them but they are still completely seprate of it.

 

[Agnaa]

Mathiverse is way above Yogg. Mathiverse transcends baseline tier 0 a beyond beyond beyond beyond beyond inaccessible number of times. The only way Yogg can be brought up there is through baseless NLF, and if we're going by baseless NLF, Mathiverse has better descriptions than Yogg does.

 

[ShivaShakti]

Yog is far beyond mathiverse for many reasons. However, aren't both of them completely separate of their systems already? They completely encompass thier systems and everything is a mere facet of them but they are still completely seprate of it.

Being all encompassing means you are still attached

 

[Overlord4896]

I fail to see how mathi is anywhere near yog from the descriptions I have seen. Azzy will probably explain it best rather than me.

 

[ShivaShakti]

I fail to see how mathi is anywhere near yog from the descriptions I have seen. Azzy will probably explain it best rather than me.

The thing is his "Beyond mathematics" descriptions are kind of contradicted by him being all encompassing, as well as the fact beying completely beyond math isn't really something you can prove.

Yog as the supreme all encompassing archetype would be equal to Mathiverse. He cant really be higher, specifically because of his all encompassing nature.

 

[Overlord4896]

Not necessarily. You can be both all encompassing but completely unattached from there system. In fact I would argue that for you to be a higher tier of tier 0 then you would need to be all-encompassing. These beings possess type 4 transduality anyway.

 

[Agnaa]

You can only be higher than the things you're described to be higher than, that's the principle of NLF.

The Mathiverse describes much higher structures (n-huge cardinals) than exist in CM.

And again, if we're going by NLF being the "supreme all encompassing archetype" is actually a weaker description than "contains and transcends all categories".

 

[ShivaShakti]

Not necessarily. You can be both all encompassing but completely unattached from there system. In fact I would argue that for you to be a higher tier of tier 0 then you would need to be all-encompassing. These beings possess type 4 transduality anyway.

You have to be unnattached completely. All encompassing just really isn't an option. Unnattachment from the system means it cant interact with you in any way shape or form. So you encompassing or transcending a system wouldn't make you unnattached. Yog can't be above mathiverse, hes only equal.

 

[Overlord4896]

I don't know much how about the mathiverse to come to a proper informed judgment to be honest. However, I can say that the mythos has a high number of cardinals (perhaps infinite) in the form of the gates and the very nature of the outer gods places them above these higharchies.