bleach TS ichigo CRT

[Regidian]

Yhwach litteraly just touch the "barrier" and remove his hand, don't see it doing a great attack even more when his tell just after that he will destroy him, (and the second attempt he get ripped easily like his nothing), don't see why it would scale, scaling him because of a incertitude like that (that proved wrong just after) it's like forgetting all the other scene that yhwach have with mimihagi merged s who shown that he can't do a thing and get killed with one hand easily

 

[GarrixianXD]

Have you read this one?

Strange, I couldn't find it anywhere.

 

[KingTempest]

Strange, I couldn't find it anywhere.

that's the thread that got 3-A bleach accepted

 

[GarrixianXD]

that's the thread that got 3-A bleach accepted

Yeah, ik

 

[GarrixianXD]

My apologies, didn't knew there was a previous thread regarding the revision

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I want to address a few things about how we scale TS Ichigo and who we scale him to.

• None of the Sternritters scale remotely close to TS Ichigo.
  • Why? Ichigo goes on record to say he doesn't want to kill them. He has literally no beef with them.
  • But he got pressured by 8 of them!? First he wasn't at full power until he physically manifested his reiatsu against Yhwach and second he was very mentally clouded. Just to show how much mentality has an affect on Ichigo in the final arc, Ichigo gets his Bankai shattered in his Merged Hollow Bankai form -> he despairs -> Renji gives him a pep talk -> Ichigo steels his resolve -> one shots a Yhwach that stole his powers with his mere Bankai. Also, the mental state is a way for Kubo to nerf Ichigo as needed, there is no set amount that Ichigo can or cannot nerf himself by. Point in case, an Ichigo that is heavily suppressing himself being tagged by a sternritter he's not paying attention to is no justification for saying Ichigo is relative to the sternritter.
• Dangai Ichigo does not scale to TS Ichigo. (My Google doc doesn't reflect this because I haven't updated it yet lol)
  • Blasphemy, Yhwach says the power Ichigo used to defeat Aizen is equivocal to his TS form! Correct but Ichigo didn't defeat Aizen with his Dangai form, he defeated Aizen with his Mugetsu form. Mugetsu is what's being compared to TS not Dangai. Plus God Aizen damaged a Dangai Ichigo that wasn't taking anything seriously. The second Dangai Ichigo gets serious he no-sells an attack that is a combination of 12 fragor, despite 1 fragor burning his arm. So God Aizen doesn't scale to TS Ichigo, Dangai doesn't scale to TS, Mugetsu scales to TS.
• Askin dropped Ichigo tho.
  • It happened off screen, but it's very much implied that it caught Ichigo off guard. Not to mention making reishi/reiatsu toxic would be exponentially more detrimental the stronger the foe (the more reiatsu they have).
  • Ichigo could have reiatsu nulled it tho! Aizen's statement on reiatsu nulling is preceded with "battles between Shinigami are just battles of reiatsu" so we can't say for certain it applies to Quincy vs Shinigami fights.
  • Don't Arrancar get reiatsu nulled (arguably)? Arrancar are part Shinigami, they're like the vizards except instead of Shinigami turned Hollow, they're Hollow turned Shinigami, so it is still in line with the Shinigami vs Shinigami battles. Again the point being this is not a valid anti-feat against TS Ichigo.
• TS Ichigo cut the Soul King. I detail it again at the end here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1cu8ywQwSxvcd9228Mpruf3OPkRbLrn4lxSX0MLYRSkg/edit?usp=sharing
  • Yhwach gave Ichigo the power to cut the Soul King right? Not quite, Yhwach likens the Mugetsu power (that is likened to TS Ichigo) to a power capable of cutting the Soul King. So Yhwach admits that Mugetsu levels of power (and by extension TS Ichigo) are needed to cut the Soul King.
  • The Soul King has no durability feats. In the conventional sense yes, but Kenpachi states that the minimum durability of a person is equivalent to the passive reiatsu leaking out of their bodies. The Soul King that Ichigo cuts is a vegetable that can't even speak or move, everything this Soul King does is passive. This Soul King passively keeps the Bleach cosmos from collapsing (which we currently apply to his AP but the Weakened Soul King can't attack so it should solely be applied to his durability tbh). So going by Kenpachi's statement and Yhwach's statement we have this: Mugetsu/TS Ichigo can cut the Soul King, the Soul King's durability = his passive reiatsu = maintaining the cosmos.
  • But Kenpachi said that forever ago. And? It was still established.
• TS Ichigo blocked a serious attack from Almighty Yhwach with only some burns.
  • While I agree that this means Almighty Yhwach > TS Ichigo, it shows that Ichigo is still relative. Ichigo would later go on to take a short beating prior to using his Merged Hollow form from an even stronger Yhwach. That stronger Yhwach also marveled that TS Ichigo = "the power he was always meant to have". Yhwach has only ever hyped up TS Ichigo, to the point where he may be TS Ichigo's biggest fan lol.
• Ichibe was going to turn TS Ichigo into the next Soul King.
  • Tokinada wanted to turn Hikone into the next Soul King too so wouldn't this mean Hikone should scale? Not inherently, the difference is who makes the statement. Ichibe has been with the Soul King throughout the entirety of history and is likely the person who knows what is exactly needed to be a Soul King, Tokinada read a history book. You can't prove that Tokinada is aware of the full capabilities required to become the Soul King, but Ichibe on the other hand is the attendant to the Soul King and has first hand experience with the OG Soul King. Point being, there's a difference when Ichibe says "I was going to make Ichigo the next Soul King" and Tokinada saying "I want Hikone to become the lynchpin". Also it is likely that in the process of Hikone becoming Soul King he'd absorb the current Soul King anyhow, which would jump him to the necessary levels of power. Ichigo wouldn't have had that luxury seeing as in the plan to make Ichigo Soul King there wasn't any Soul King left.

Personally I think TS Ichigo should be "At least High 6-A (Among the few stated capable of handling Hikone), likely 3-A, possibly Low 2-C (Intercepted an attack from Yhwach and only suffered burns, capable of cutting the Soul King with his level of power, the same level of power Yhwach deemed magnificent)" if not just "3-A, possibly Low 2-C (Killed the Soul King)".

Truthfully I should've spoken this in my CRT that upgraded the God Tiers this high, but I'm sure many Bleach thread participants on this sight can testify, I'm burning out when it comes to debating Bleach here.

 

[SagaTheLegend]

Dangai Ichigo does not scale to TS Ichigo. (My Google doc doesn't reflect this because I haven't updated it yet lol)

• Blasphemy, Yhwach says the power Ichigo used to defeat Aizen is equivocal to his TS form! Correct but Ichigo didn't defeat Aizen with his Dangai form, he defeated Aizen with his Mugetsu form. Mugetsu is what's being compared to TS not Dangai. Plus God Aizen damaged a Dangai Ichigo that wasn't taking anything seriously. The second Dangai Ichigo gets serious he no-sells an attack that is a combination of 12 fragor, despite 1 fragor burning his arm. So God Aizen doesn't scale to TS Ichigo, Dangai doesn't scale to TS, Mugetsu scales to TS.

I will also have to disagree with this part. Yhwach in this scan states that Ichigo increased in power so that he could cut down the Soul King. A increase in power in Bleach obviously means an increase in Reiatsu.

Given he says Ichigo had to increase his reiatsu this likely means an increase in general. Why would this refer to Mugetsu? The Final Getsuga Tensho is a technique that needs to be learned not a standard increase in power and that can only be used once. It would very odd for Yhwach to be referring to an one off technique that was only used once during the entire Aizen fight when his line implies a general increase in power. So Dangai Ichigo should indeed be comparabe to TS Ichigo.

 

[Damage3245]

I would like to put forward an alternative interpretation of Yhwach's statement here.

Yhwach's statement is:

"And regaining the power you lost from defeating Sosuke Aizen was to take Reio's life in front of my eyes."

In the background of that panel as Yhwach is talking is Ginjo. Why is Ginjo relevant at all here? It's because it is during the Fullbring arc that Ichigo regains his spiritual abilities that he had lost from defeating Sosuke Aizen. If he was talking about unlocking his True Shikai there probably would have been a panel of Ichigo getting his True Shikai unlocked.

I don't think Yhwach is talking about his True Shikai in this scene. He's just mentioning that Ichigo lost his spiritual abilities from defeating Aizen and he regained them so that he would eventually be able to kill Reio. He obviously could not kill Reio if he had no spiritual abilities at all.

 

[Regidian]

And soul king should not have his durability at universal because of his passive reiatsu since this reiatsu/power is used for stabilize the universe not protecting him

 

[Purgy]

And soul king should not have his durability at universal because of his passive reiatsu since this reiatsu/power is used for stabilize the universe not protecting him

Are you referring to weakened Soul King? Because he's rated as unknown for durability

There's no way Prime Soul King should be unknown when;

1. He's clearly the strongest in verse
2. He has blut, meaning his durability and AP can be amped with his Reiatsu

Regardless, that has absolutely nothing to do with this CRT, if you want it to be changed you should make your own CRT.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Given he says Ichigo had to increase his reiatsu this likely means an increase in general. Why would this refer to Mugetsu? The Final Getsuga Tensho is a technique that needs to be learned not a standard increase in power and that can only be used once. It would very odd for Yhwach to be referring to an one off technique that was only used once during the entire Aizen fight when his line implies a general increase in power. So Dangai Ichigo should indeed be comparabe to TS Ichigo.

The Unmasked databook refers to Mugetsu as the strongest technique seen in Bleach at the time. So that in and of itself implies that Mugetsu > Dangai Ichigo. However, even if you wanted to scale Dangai Ichigo to Mugetsu and therefore TS Ichigo, it doesn't change the fact that Aizen only damaged Dangai Ichigo while Ichigo was goofing around, the second he got serious he no sold an attack that was 12 of the attacks that burnt his arm.

I would like to put forward an alternative interpretation of Yhwach's statement here.

Yhwach's statement is:

"And regaining the power you lost from defeating Sosuke Aizen was to take Reio's life in front of my eyes."

In the background of that panel as Yhwach is talking is Ginjo. Why is Ginjo relevant at all here? It's because it is during the Fullbring arc that Ichigo regains his spiritual abilities that he had lost from defeating Sosuke Aizen. If he was talking about unlocking his True Shikai there probably would have been a panel of Ichigo getting his True Shikai unlocked.

I don't think Yhwach is talking about his True Shikai in this scene. He's just mentioning that Ichigo lost his spiritual abilities from defeating Aizen and he regained them so that he would eventually be able to kill Reio. He obviously could not kill Reio if he had no spiritual abilities at all.

The problem I have with this is as follows:

Yhwach still says power was needed to take the Reio's life. Not to mention Ichigo didn't regain the power that defeated Aizen until he got his True Shikai, since that's the Ichigo Yhwach is talking to. When you put that in combination with Kenpachi's lesson on how durability works, to claim that that statement refers to Fullbring Bankai Ichigo would concede to the possibility that Fullbring Bankai Ichigo can scale to the Soul King.

Because regardless of how you look at the Yhwach statement, Ichigo still cut the Soul King, the same Soul King who is passively maintaining the entire Bleach cosmos, which according to Kenpachi would scale to his durability.

And soul king should not have his durability at universal because of his passive reiatsu since this reiatsu/power is used for stabilize the universe not protecting him

Kenpachi's passive reiatsu wasn't being used to protect him either, it was just leaking out of his body. So the passive reiatsu doesn't need to be "protecting you" it just needs to be there.

 

[Regidian]

Are you referring to weakened Soul King? Because he's rated as unknown for durability

There's no way Prime Soul King should be unknown when;

1. He's clearly the strongest in verse
2. He has blut, meaning his durability and AP can be amped with his Reiatsu

Regardless, that has absolutely nothing to do with this CRT, if you want it to be changed you should make your own CRT.

Yeah it's for the weakened i talked about, arc talked about it should be universal and not unknown

 

[Damage3245]

Yhwach still says power was needed to take the Reio's life.

He doesn't say it was needed for that. He just says that the purpose of Ichigo regaining his power was for him to kill the Soul King in front of Yhwach. He isn't saying that his True Shikai state is what the minimum necessary to cut through the Soul King.

Because regardless of how you look at the Yhwach statement, Ichigo still cut the Soul King, the same Soul King who is passively maintaining the entire Bleach cosmos, which according to Kenpachi would scale to his durability.

Bear in mind we're just assuming the Soul King's durability scales to that. It's entirely possible that Kubo didn't have that in mind when writing the scenes for the Soul King.

It's possible that the energy from the Soul King that is going into maintaing the cosmos is not actually leaking out of him, and therefore offers no protection at all.

 

[Zoro21043]

It's entirely possible that Kubo didn't have that in mind when writing the scenes for the Soul King.

you would have to prove that

Bear in mind we're just assuming the Soul King's durability scales to that.

his body needs to be durable enough to maintain all that energy output, and its not an assumption cuz this is what we have been told based on kennys statement

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Bear in mind we're just assuming the Soul King's durability scales to that. It's entirely possible that Kubo didn't have that in mind when writing the scenes for the Soul King.

It's possible that the energy from the Soul King that is going into maintaing the cosmos is not actually leaking out of him, and therefore offers no protection at all.

I'd like to refer you to this again then:

"At least High 6-A (Among the few stated capable of handling Hikone), likely 3-A, possibly Low 2-C (Intercepted an attack from Yhwach and only suffered burns, capable of cutting the Soul King with his level of power, the same level of power Yhwach deemed magnificent)"

Because A) the author may not have had it in mind that far in the future doesn't matter, because it isn't directly retconned and it's been established it's valid to use. B) Sure it's possible maybe the Soul King can be cut by anyone, but that doesn't disprove Kenpachi's statement which is why I said "At least High 6-A, likely 3-A, possibly Low 2-C"

 

[Damage3245]

his body needs to be durable enough to maintain all that energy output, and its not an assumption cuz this is what we have been told based on kennys statement

Not necessarily true. Kenpachi's statement was about the spiritual energy that is leaking out of him. We haven't been told how much energy is leaking out of the Soul King because it is entirely possible that all of his energy is being diverted towards maintaining the balance.

You would need to prove that the Soul King has Universal-levels of spirit energy leaking out of him because right now that is just an assumption.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

You would need to prove that the Soul King has Universal-levels of spirit energy leaking out of him because right now that is just an assumption.

Being that the Weakened Soul King doesn't have a brain, heart, or limbs. I believe it is fair to assume that anything he does is just leaking out of him. He legitimately cannot form a single thought, he's a vegetable.

However I recognize your healthy skepticism which is why I proposed "At least High 6-A, likely 3-A, possibly Low 2-C"

Because TS Ichigo still tanks an attack from Yhwach with only some burns (what's up with Kubo burning Ichigo's left arm btw) and he took a beating prior to using his Hollow powers, so TS Ichigo should still be somewhat relative to Almighty Yhwach.

 

[Dangai_Ichigo]

Oh right, that reminds me that Ichigo gets his right arm burned by Ginjo's Getsuga Tenshou and they're practically even during their fight

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Fullbring Bankai Ichigo burns the arm of no Almighty Yhwach too, and Yhwach is like oof gotta retreat.

So burning arms amounts to be relative we have this:

Fullbring Ichigo and Ginjo are relative (makes sense)
Fullbring Bankai Ichigo and no Almighty Yhwach are relative (fits the narrative of Save Soul Society Ichigo)
God Aizen is relative to Dangai Ichigo holding back (makes sense, since while serious Aizen was like "I still can't feel his reiatsu")
TS Ichigo is relative to Almighty Yhwach (he did cut the Soul King who arguably has universal durability and he survived a beating from a stronger Yhwach)

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

his body needs to be durable enough to maintain all that energy output, and its not an assumption cuz this is what we have been told based on kennys statement

No, thats not how durability inherently works. It is entirely possible to have a durability thats far far lower than the present level of energy within your body. Otherwise the concept of glass cannons would not exist.

 

[Zoro21043]

in bleach your durability needs to be relative to your physical AP to survive as bankai ichigo/bankai kenny were both getting crushed by their powers
and reio maintained the world and wouldve maintained it forever so he needs to be durable enough

either way scaling to reio isnt necessary to upgrade ts ichigo

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

We're not claiming WSK's durability = maximum output, I'm saying that we know durability is linked to your passive reiatsu leakage as per Kenpachi. And the passive reiatsu emanating from the WSK is maintaining the cosmos (since the WSK is a braindead, vegetable husk).

Zoro brings up a good point, if you can't withstand your own reiatsu it will crush you (as per what was happening to Hollow Ichigo), so the durability of Bleach characters needs to be somewhat relative to their AP just by the nature of the series.

Like I'd suggest something like this:

• WSK's Durability: Unknown, possibly 3-A to Low 2-C (passively maintains the cosmos)
• TS Ichigo: At least High 6-A (capable of handling Hikone), likely 3-A, possibly Low 2-C (relative to Almighty Yhwach, cut the Soul King)

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

We're not claiming WSK's durability = maximum output, I'm saying that we know durability is linked to your passive reiatsu leakage as per Kenpachi.

Yeah but thats what not we're getting here. Im not understanding how Kenpachi preventing Ichigos attacks from breaking through the reiatsu he leaks out means you need your durability to survive your reiatsu.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Yeah but thats what not we're getting here. Im not understanding how Kenpachi preventing Ichigos attacks from breaking through the reiatsu he leaks out means you need your durability to survive your reiatsu.

Ohhhh ok those are two separate points.

So Kenpachi's statement means that your passive reiatsu leakage scales to your minimum durability.

The other things goes as follows: Ichigo's Bankai vs Byakuya was too strong for his body to handle for a long period of time. So what this means is, if you can't withstand your own power for extended periods of time it will inevitably crush you. Which means that your durability (in Bleach) must be somewhat relative (by how much who knows) to your AP or you'll crush your own bones under your own power.

So how does this apply to the Weakened Soul King? Well the WSK passively maintains the cosmos (he's a vegetable he can't make any active choices) so it is very likely that the passive reiatsu emanating from him is what's stabilizing everything. Also, the WSK has to be capable of withstanding a constant emission of cosmos stabilizing reiatsu or it would crush his husk and end up killing himself. So these two points in combination mean that the Soul King's durability is somewhat relative to the stabilizing the cosmos.

Which is where my last post's suggestions come from, to account for the fact that the WSK's durability should somewhat scale to his feat and the fact that TS Ichigo is somewhat relative to Almighty Yhwach.

 

[Zoro21043]

i dont think there is anything left to discuss
what are the conclusions ?
i agree with arcs proposal of at least High 6A, likely 3A possibly low 2C
there is a lot of supporting evidence for ts to scale
also soul kings durability should be upgraded to likely 3A possibly low 2C based on the arguments made

 

[Damage3245]

also soul kings durability should be upgraded to likely 3A possibly low 2C based on the arguments made

Why? There's been disagreement there.

Keeping it as Unknown seems like the better option to me.

 

[Zoro21043]

Why? There's been disagreement there.

Keeping it as Unknown seems like the better option to me.

arc and I gave a new argument for it tho
that also cant be accepted? why?

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Arc and Zoro FRA

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

What does FRA stand for?

Im still for this:

TS Ichigo: “At least High 6-A (capable of handling Hikone), likely 3-A, possibly Low 2-C (killed Soul King and blocked attacks from Yhwach)”

WSK: “Unknown, likely 3-A, possibly Low 2-C (maintains the Cosmos passively without crushing under his own reiatsu)”

Dangai Ichigo: “At least High 6-A (no sold Ultra Fragor), likely 3-A, possibly Low 2-C with Mugetsu (Yhwach likened this power to TS Ichigo)”

 

[Damage3245]

What does FRA stand for?

For Reason(s) Above.

Basically saying you agree with what somebody has already posted on the thread.

 

[GDEM]

Passive reiatsu scaling minimum durability makes sense to me.

But, based on this, Dangai Ichigo should not have its durability proportional to the Mugetsu AP?
In SAFWY II, Roca was able to replicate Mugetsu, but she was not strong enough to handle so much power, her body started to fall apart. Dangai Ichigo was able to use Mugetsu without suffering damage, in other words, her body was able to handle Mugetsu's power.

God Aizen was capable of causing damage to Dangai Ichigo, and was also supposed to climb. Even though there is a huge power difference between them, it is still a viable Powerscaling according to the wiki's criteria.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

When Ichigo used Mugetsu he had an entire transformation to facilitate it.

Also God Aizen damages an Ichigo with one Fragor while that Ichigo is sitting there not trying. The second Dangai Ichigo tries he no sells Ultra Fragor. So scaling God Aizen to even Dangai Ichigo is a bit suspect.

Also consider this, only Shinigami in the same tier of power can sense their reiatsu, Aizen could never sense Ichigo’s reiatsu. Implying that Aizen was never relative to Ichigo’s full power.

Think of God Aizen damaging Ichigo as Isshin damaging Chrysalis Aizen for comparisons sake.

 

[Damage3245]

Think of God Aizen damaging Ichigo as Isshin damaging Chrysalis Aizen for comparisons sake.

That is a good point. Should we just scale God Aizen to "At least far higher than his previous form"?

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Butterfly was stated to transcend all Hollows and Shinigami so he would just go Monster > Butterfly > everyone else at the time.

 

[Dangai_Ichigo]

Which ties into him being above all the Espada collectively and now you have him above all of then

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I’m gonna compile all the suggestions from this thread with half the intention for bumping it.

• Scale WSK durability to “Unknown, likely 3-A, possibly Low 2-C (capable of passively preventing the collapse of the Bleach Cosmos without succumbing to the weight of his own reiatsu)”
• Scale TS Ichigo to “At least High 6-A (regarded as one of the few individuals capable of handling Hikone), likely 3-A, possibly Low 2-C (took multiple attacks from Yhwach who regarded this power as magnificent, killed the Soul King)”
• Scale Post-Dangai Ichigo to “At least [God Aizen] (toyed around with Aizen, no sold Ultra Fragor), likely 3-A, possibly Low 2-C with Mugetsu (Yhwach equated this power to True Shikai Ichigo, claiming it was needed to cut down the Soul King)”
• God Aizen to one of two things: “At least [Fourth Fusion], likely higher (stronger than before)” or “At least High 6-A (iirc some form of Aizen that fought Ichigo is compared to Hikone and they say Hikone isn’t on that Aizen level I think I saw this in Aerna’s sandbox so I’d have to do some digging)” I have a Kurohitsugi calc that requires some evaluation so eventually we may just be able to scale Aizen off of his own attack.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Ohhhh ok those are two separate points.

So Kenpachi's statement means that your passive reiatsu leakage scales to your minimum durability.

The other things goes as follows: Ichigo's Bankai vs Byakuya was too strong for his body to handle for a long period of time. So what this means is, if you can't withstand your own power for extended periods of time it will inevitably crush you. Which means that your durability (in Bleach) must be somewhat relative (by how much who knows) to your AP or you'll crush your own bones under your own power.

Sorry, I forgot to respond to this. I disagree with the Ichigo vs Byakuya point being used to cement this and i'll post an in-depth reason of it why later

 

[Purgy]

It wasn't just Ichigo vs Byakuya though right? Wasn't a similar thing said with Bankai Kenpachi?

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Yep

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

It was also said that the weight of Ichigo’s striped hollow mask reiatsu made it fickle.