Bleach Top Tiers Downgrade

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

You're jumping from he "he knows space is a thing" to "his mind can create perfect meteor entry simulations, including the affects of Earth's gravity on an approaching meteor that cause them to reach typical entry speeds". That is a big assumption.

His power has to be imagined perfectly or they'll backfire, that is why he lost. You're think too hard I mean he can just say "I imagine a meteor just like from space above Seireitei" he doesn't have to be that specific considering he summoned rockets and I'm pretty sure he wasn't thinking of the wiring. And imagined a "galaxy room" which showed galaxies in the background.

 

[Xerkser500]

Actually no, it's called occam's razor, my interpretation is more accurate because it assumes less than yours, mine is also backed by the fact that there's no visual evidence whilst yours NEEDS visual evidence to support it

With that logic we shouldn't even have meteor rules, everything that's called a meteor or not even shown to come from space should just be 11.2 km/s because well, meteors HAVE to come from space right? not like we're dealing with a character who can imagine things into existence in any location whatsoever

If anything, I agree with this part at least.

Just because Gremmy's imaginations are "specific" doesnt mean that he's specifically imagining them in a certain place. His meteor imagination is specific because the imagination is in the form of a meteor. Thats it. The meteor could have come from anywhere in the sky and it wouldnt have changed a thing about it.

Also, "its his imagination, he can imagine anything he wants" is not a good counter argument against this because then it goes both ways. Whats stopping me from saying something like the reason the meteor was in flames, like at all, was because Gremmy imagined it to be on fire? Its his imagination, he can make it anyway he wants right? Going by that, its a much much smaller assumption to say the meteor went in flames when traveling down was because Gremmy imagined it to be on fire in the first place.

 

[Dr.Fix]

Seeing as this has been brought up again I'd like to propose a question to anyone who does/knows calcs:

What would the value be for just the creation of the meteor itself? I don't know if you would use E=MC or something else. Just want to put that out there since everyone at least agrees Gremmy did "create" the meteor, not pull it down.

 

[TataHakai]

You're jumping from he "he knows space is a thing" to "his mind can create perfect meteor entry simulations, including the affects of Earth's gravity on an approaching meteor that cause them to reach typical entry speeds". That is a big assumption.

His power has to be imagined perfectly or they'll backfire, that is why he lost.

This is just blatantly wrong, he lost because he didn't imagine a body strong enough to withstand Kenpachi's power

That's not "imperfect" imagination because he didn't imagine the body at all.

The meteor was on flames because it was ablating, it doesn't need to come from space to ablate, Gremmy didn't need to imagine it on fire because it would've automatically been on fire the moment it started falling as the higher the mass the faster it falls.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

He imagined a body to hold Kenpachi's power and also imagined that he was an unbeatable monster lol. That is an imperfection because he imagined incorrectly similar to how he also imagined himself dying and quickly erased that thought from his head. He literally killed himself due to error.

 

[Blahblah9755]

Tell me, how exactly is the meteor he imagined not perfectly mimicking the atmospheric entry conditions related by the effect if the Earth's gravitational pull on approaching objects going to backfire on him?

Sure he can backfire with his imagination, and needs to be careful, but that diesn't mean everything has to be perfectly imitating the real world. He isn't gonna die because he imagined the cookies in Yachiru's arms being too tasty, he isn't gonna die because he imagined his clones having a slightly different resting heart rate from him, he isn't gonna die because he imagined the meteor appearing into the sky instead of falling from far Earth orbit. Needing to imagine carefully is not the same as needing to imagine perfectly replicated physical phenomena.

 

[Link_Eternal]

@Dr.Fix

Referring to E=mc^2? I'm pretty sure the sight doesn't use it.

Was curious and plugged in the numbers... ~84.48 yottatons, so 5-A Gremmy anyone? Lol

In all seriousness though, if Gremmy popped out that rock at the depicted hight how long would it take to reach ablation. Would it really be something like less than a second?

 

[Blahblah9755]

It would take around 200 km of falling at surface gravity to reach ablation speeds, and probably about 220km accounting for the slightly lower average gravity that comes from being a few hundred km away. Though if it was a later from a few hundred km away, not just when it got closer, that's a pretty huge atmosphere.

 

[Dr.Fix]

@link eternal: Thanks for the reply. That's a god awful stat but at least we know we can't use that method so thanks.

 

[TataHakai]

Seeing as this has been brought up again I'd like to propose a question to anyone who does/knows calcs:
What would the value be for just the creation of the meteor itself? I don't know if you would use E=MC or something else. Just want to put that out there since everyone at least agrees Gremmy did "create" the meteor, not pull it down.

The only way to get a creation would be through E = MC^2 but you can't use that unless it's stated

 

[Dr.Fix]

@Tata That seems an odd rule to need to state the formula . . unless by "stated" you're referring to creation.

 

[Sekkonds.]

Gremmy did create this metreor with his own imaginatary

he needed to create 7 clones just to teleport zaraki to space,so it's kinda ridicluos that he moved that huge metreor from space with only 2 clones

and alot of his creations didn't disapper after his death,take hikone or the dude who can absorb reiatsu as an example "iam not well informed about the novels"

@Blahblah9755

No,literally all of gremmy's creations are the same as reality ,even the smallest details

and gremmy imagined a metreor not a big ass rock

the metreor was ablating the moment it was created,this proves that gremmy is the one who created it's speed,not the gravity and having sex with the air

 

[Callsign_Castle]

Reality warping is really an application of the simple concept of concepts.

He created a whole person and body for himself. The concept of idea of a person is a body with limbs, eyes, blood, etc. this doesn't take him a second thought to do.

He opens the "galaxy room", which is space, the concept of outer space being empty, having stars/celestial bodies, plus all the effects as he stated.

It would be reasonable to assume he knows the concept of a meteor is a giant flaming rock that comes from space.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

The OP sounds reasonable to me.

 

[Peter_"Quicksilver"_Maximoff]

^I more inclined to agree with the opposing arguments.

 

[Omimi]

@Tata That seems an odd rule to need to state the formula . . unless by "stated" you're referring to creation.

we cant use that cuz it give higher result or make it outliar

simply creating metreor put him at 5-A

in my opinion we should be able to us it cuz we know that he create the metreor

+ it will also make people 4-C for creating earth along lol

 

[TataHakai]

@Tata That seems an odd rule to need to state the formula . . unless by "stated" you're referring to creation.

No i mean literally stated formula

It's because otherwise pretty much anyone who creates anything would be so ridicilously high it would inflate everything, for example even creating a large building sized construct would be hitting country levels of energy

We don't use it unless stated because it doesn't make much sense for the author to be thinking a specific formula that only works on some occasions

Anyways creating something out of nothing is technically an impossibility and breaks a law of physics so the formula wouldn't work anyways

 

[TataHakai]

It would take around 200 km of falling at surface gravity to reach ablation speeds, and probably about 220km accounting for the slightly lower average gravity that comes from being a few hundred km away. Though if it was a later from a few hundred km away, not just when it got closer, that's a pretty huge atmosphere.

Like i said, if SS is = Earth then it's atmosphere ends at 180,000 km up

 

[The_Causality]

Why we can't just simply calc the speed of the meteor with angsize?

 

[Rin_The_Dragon_Empress]

This is pretty similar to Erza's feat, couldn't you find Kenpachi's speed since he intercepted the meteorite? I'd imagine it'd be MHS+ - Sub Rel so it might be worth calculating.

 

[Dr.Fix]

Thank you @Tata. What is the accepted practice then for creating something? Gremmy doesn't actually use nothing, he uses his reiatsu, hence doubling his power. I know the DCU at one point just gave some characters Island level for creating an island.

 

[AppleLord]

It would take around 200 km of falling at surface gravity to reach ablation speeds, and probably about 220km accounting for the slightly lower average gravity that comes from being a few hundred km away. Though if it was a later from a few hundred km away, not just when it got closer, that's a pretty huge atmosphere.

Like i said, if SS is = Earth then it's atmosphere ends at 180,000 km up

In multiple occasions it was stated that the Soul King Palace resides in another dimension while the door that grants you access to the other 72 gates reside above Seireitei.

 

[Peter1129]

I don't really care if they get downgraded so I'm just gonna go ahead and make the scaling for most of the characters in case the downgrade goes through.

6-B+
Base Gremmy (93.5 Teratons) (Half the value of the meteor)

Post-Muken Base Kenpachi w/ eyepatch (Matched Base Gremmy)

Pernida (Post-Evolution) (Evolved to Kenpachi's level)

Nemu with Power enhancement (Blew a hole through Pernida)

High 6-B
Gremmy with 1 clone (187 Teratons) (Multiplied his power by 2. Made a meteor)

Post-Muken Base Kenpachi w/o eyepatch (Far stronger than before)

High 6-B+
Gremmy with 6 clones (654.5 Teratons) (Multiplied his power by 7)

Shikai Kenpachi w/ eyepatch (Survived explosions from Gremmy with 6 clones and cleaved him in half)

6-A
Shikai Kenpachi w/o eyepatch (Far stronger than before)

God Size Gerard (Matched Shikai Kenpachi w/o eyepatch)

Likely TYBW Uryu (Fought Jugram offscreen for an extended period of time)

At least 6-A
Bankai Kenpachi (Stomped and later one shot God Size Gerard who could match his Shikai state w/o eyepatch)

Matured Bankai Toshiro (Cleaved Volstanding Gerard's Hoffnung in two)

Volstanding Gerard (Stronger than before)

Volstanding 2nd Form Gerard (Even stronger than before)

Jugram (Briefly survived Soul King Yhwach's Auswhalen which killed Volstanding 2nd Form Gerard)

Likely True Shikai Ichigo (Briefly held back Yhwach with The Almighty and staggered him with a Getsuga Tensho)

Likely Dangai Ichigo (Comparable to True Shikai Ichigo)

Likely God Aizen (Injured Dangai Ichigo)

At least 6-A likely higher
Bankai Yamamoto (Base Yhwach stated nobody other than himself can handle his bankai's power. Which would make him stronger than Jugram)

Ichibe (Fought Base Yhwach)

Base Yhwach (Is the only one capable of stealing Yamamoto's Bankai. Defeated and sealed Gremmy in the past)

Yhwach with The Almighty (One shot Ichibei)

Yhwach (Post-Mimihagi Absorption) (Even stronger than before)

Others
There are probably some characters I missed or there are some other characters that currently scale even though they shouldn't scale and those that might scale but currently don't scale. But I'm not gonna mention them cause I really don't want to get into another argument about them until I make the thread. So I'm not gonna name them here.

 

[AppleLord]

How come Gerard is 6-A but Gremmy 6-B when Greemy is the second strongest Quincy that only Yhwach can defeat?

 

[Link_Eternal]

If the downgrade goes through where are you getting 6-A from? I'm pretty sure everyone in that tier scales from this very calc.

Also, there are different degrees of ablation. At around mach 5 - 10 there is a small shimmering of supperheated air, unless I'm mistaken. This meteor is on fire, and you can hardly even see the rock itself. What speed do you need to reach this?

 

[Peter1129]

@AppleLord Gerard has feats of scaling to Shikai Kenpachi w/o eyepatch while Gremmy doesn't. Gremmy might've been able to reach 6-A if he made more clones but he doesn't so at most he's just High 6-B+. Also that statement about Gremmy probably didn't include Gerard after getting a huge boost from Miracle.

@Link Eternal Gremmy with 6 clones is 654.5 Teratons. 6-A starts at 760 Teratons that's just a 1.16x difference. So via upscaling Shikai Kenpachi w/o eyepatch and up would be 6-A since the eyepatch gives a really big boost.

 

[AppleLord]

@AppleLord Gerard has feats of scaling to Shikai Kenpachi w/o eyepatch while Gremmy doesn't. Grammy might've been able to reach 6-A if he made more clones but he doesn't so at most he's just High 6-B+.

Gremmy could also BFR Gerard to outerspace where shadows aren't a thing, and he can't comeback. I can see Gremmy beating him regardless of strength.

 

[Peter1129]

Yeah but that's hax not AP. So either way Gremmy shouldn't be 6-A unless he makes more clones.

 

[AppleLord]

This was also Gerard enhanced by Auswhalen after been revived.

 

[Damage3245]

Did Pernida really reach Kenpachi's level of AP, or just his speed? I thought the wording of the line implied Pernida's speed reached Kenpachi's level.

Also, why does that scaling assume that Yhwach beat six of Gremmy's clones?

 

[Blahblah9755]

Like i said, if SS is = Earth then it's atmosphere ends at 180,000 km up

What? Even the thermosphere only goes up to 600km, beyond that in the exosphere you can't even really call it part of the atmosphere, since the molecules are so far apart. To my knowledge, ablation typically starts at within the area from near the top of the mesosphere to the Kármán line.

 

[Peter1129]

@Damage3245 Well the profile said Pernida evolved to Kenpachi's level so I assume it means AP. If it isn't I'll remove both Pernida and Nemu.

 

[Link_Eternal]

Can we discuss scaling in a different thread? So we can keep this thread focused solely on Gremmy's feat itself.

And actually, wouldn't it be more convenient to have some sort of section/thread displaying all of the scaling chains so that they can be analyzed?

 

[Peter_"Quicksilver"_Maximoff]

This hasn't been accepted for that to happen.

 

[Link_Eternal]

We don't need feats to decide on scaling, do we?

 

[Zezu1995]

can i ask a question? isnt this pointless? LN size on like 4 sites ( i can link) has been confirmed small country in long chats like these

-espads has been shown destroying LN via ulq ress/cero etc



tho ulq was literally the only one to do this.. unless you wanna scale the lower numbers which might be pointless seeing how numbers dont fully matter to SOME... anyways this makes like 1-6 espadas small country at best in ress so wouldnt we need to finish the espadas before we get into gremmy again?

 

[AppleLord]

How come Gremmy needs to focus on the target but later he creates 6 clones, and Galaxy room at the same time.

One Gremmy focus on hardening the skiing of the other but at the same time they keep imagining the meteor so it doesn't disappears.

Aren't that two things?

 

[Zezu1995]

well... imo i can focus on two things at once i do it when i play pokemon and COD at the same time... its hard but i can manage it not sure if this helps xd

 

[AppleLord]

Then it's not that "he cannot focus on more than one" but more like "he needs to keep focused on his creations" or they go away.

 

[TataHakai]

How is it pointless if the difference between small country and continent is nearly 700x

Not only that but creating a small country sized explosion wouldn't even be small country tier, more around Island level