-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Bleach Top Tiers Downgrade
- Thread starter TataHakai
- Start date
- Status
- 31,208
- 27,406
We have a new calc for the destruction of Seireitei based on statements - though it should probably be put into a blog and evaluated.Antvasima said:
We also have AppleLord's calc which uses scaling to determine the AP of the meteor.
Once both calcs get evaluated, we can create a new separate thread dealing with the issue of which calc should be used going forwards.
Then - ideally - the matter will finally be settled and we'll have made a final decision.
- 4,327
- 2,978
The matter seems to be already settled here to move forward with statements and Tata's new Seireitei size that was agreed.
It just needs to be put into a blog as well as the destruction statement of it by Gremmy that gives an AP.
Apple's calc already had disagreements and has been made redundant now.
It just needs to be put into a blog as well as the destruction statement of it by Gremmy that gives an AP.
Apple's calc already had disagreements and has been made redundant now.
- 31,208
- 27,406
From what I remembered Matthew just recommended with going with only statements or only scaling, and it wasn't said which one we should definitely go with.
I'd prefer to hear people's final thoughts on a new thread once both calcs are ready.
I'd prefer to hear people's final thoughts on a new thread once both calcs are ready.
- 2,426
- 476
The major issues a few users raised was it "invalidating" the size of Seretei. This is of course false since it was scaling Wandentei and more importantly can only "invalidate" if we consider Kubo's illustrations applicable. @Imade, @Sig, et al have repeatedly bashed Kubo's art as "invalid", particularly with regards to Seretei. meaning this should have no impact to them what so ever.AppleLord said:
As far as statements go the problem with Gremmy "destroying" it all is that it is a hypothetical. The statement is pre-tense and he never actually does succeed. Gremmy also states that only he will survive it , which is demonstrated false by at least Zaraki and would mean several other characters would not be able to scale (YHWH for example).
Its at least a good result though, I'll give it credit for being somewhat reasonable with a value comparable to the other one. I still prefer Tata's since there's no "What if" if scenario nor contradictions in power scaling.
- 903
- 142
@Dr.fix
Hypotheticals or "what-ifs" are commonly used. Villain specifically threatens to do X but fails because the hero prevents that ending.
Hypotheticals or "what-ifs" are commonly used. Villain specifically threatens to do X but fails because the hero prevents that ending.
- 31,370
- 34,117
This thread has nothing to do with 5-B Yhwach, it's about the meteor calc revising all the current High 6-A characters. Anyway, I agree that it's preferable calc group members evaluate the blogs. TataHakai seems to like AppleLord's calc by the looks of it.
- 2,519
- 1,364
- Thread starter
- #375
It's entirely a matter of consistency for me
If we're going to go by statements like Imade wants to then we need to disregard pixel scaling for Bleach since the argument is that Kubo has shown many times to be a vastly inconsistent drawer in terms of proportion
If we're going to go by pixel scaling then we need to disregard statements because they massively contradict one another, not even by a bit like other authors but by like, hundreds of times difference
This is honestly a question that needs to be discussed for the whole verse and not just this particular calc, because this isn't the first time or calc we have the statements vs pixel scaling argument for bleach (las noches is another example)
If we're going to go by statements like Imade wants to then we need to disregard pixel scaling for Bleach since the argument is that Kubo has shown many times to be a vastly inconsistent drawer in terms of proportion
If we're going to go by pixel scaling then we need to disregard statements because they massively contradict one another, not even by a bit like other authors but by like, hundreds of times difference
This is honestly a question that needs to be discussed for the whole verse and not just this particular calc, because this isn't the first time or calc we have the statements vs pixel scaling argument for bleach (las noches is another example)
- 2,684
- 317
...True
- 2,519
- 1,364
- Thread starter
- #379
Light novel statements aren't contradicted by visuals because there are no visualsAppleLord said:
It's not just that statements in bleach are automatically wrong because they're statements, it's because visually things like seiretei and las noches are not as big as they're stated to be
- 8,153
- 2,177
@Dr.Fix
You're contradicting yourself and don't seem to be aware that the wiki is riddled with theoretical feats. Also via you're logic of no one else surviving the meteor implies you think Gremmy's power is some absolute force. It's clear he imagined that no one else but him could survive this and Kenpachi shattered this reality he had thought. If you wish to get rid of theoretical feats go make a wiki wide crt about it.
And you're last sentence made no sense as well, every Gremmy calc is theoretical lol.
You're contradicting yourself and don't seem to be aware that the wiki is riddled with theoretical feats. Also via you're logic of no one else surviving the meteor implies you think Gremmy's power is some absolute force. It's clear he imagined that no one else but him could survive this and Kenpachi shattered this reality he had thought. If you wish to get rid of theoretical feats go make a wiki wide crt about it.
And you're last sentence made no sense as well, every Gremmy calc is theoretical lol.
- 5,230
- 1,471
if the art inconsistency is a issue cant you use the very first version plus the statements and just go from there, as an old artist myself i never draw the same even if its the same thing i might change a few things if i were to redo something and as a manga where you normally gotta draw the same shit over and over itt wont always be the same... look at signatures... do anyone write them the same everytime..i sure dont as long as the size of the old arts vs the new is similar its good to me
- 4,327
- 2,978
My calc was deemed acceptable and reasonable by Soldier Blue and Tata.
Im hoping we can move forward with it and the utilizations of statements from now on.
Im hoping we can move forward with it and the utilizations of statements from now on.
- 6,014
- 2,122
If it's accepted i guess the Wandereich calc need to be redone.
- 31,370
- 34,117
Wandereich is calc'd using the same methodology; combining statements followed by pixel scaling to Calc Stack the end results. It was agreed to either go by one very specific statement, or simply pixel scale from the ground up without statements. I personally prefer Applelord's calc, but I'm fine with IMade's if that's what the rest of the staff think is more reasonable.
- 5,450
- 1,840
Are there any statements about the size of wandereich?
- 4,327
- 2,978
Same size as Seireitei. Visuals and statement say so.Wrath Of Itachi said:
- 8,153
- 2,177
They're the same size, not sure what DDM is talking about with calc stacking and what not.
- 5,450
- 1,840
I think he's talking about the combination of using pixel scaling and statements to find the size. But I'm not 100% sure.
- 4,327
- 2,978
That would be redundant and literally what we've been trying to avoid now.
The whole reason we're having this discussion is due to all sides disagreeing with using inconsistent art that is not consistent with statements leading to inflations or deflations.
If that's what he meant then he hasn't kept up with the discussion at all.
We can't use both when they contradict each other.
The whole reason we're having this discussion is due to all sides disagreeing with using inconsistent art that is not consistent with statements leading to inflations or deflations.
If that's what he meant then he hasn't kept up with the discussion at all.
We can't use both when they contradict each other.
- 8,153
- 2,177
Doesn't exist as far as i'm aware considering there was no reason to ever calculate the size of Wadenreich because it's located in the shadow of Seireitei. When it emerged you see a couple different angels of it replacing Seireitei completely.Wrath Of Itachi said:
Yhwach in the past was a man who conquered countries, so his empire was quite vast.
- 1,461
- 764
I'm exceptionally confused as to why pixel calcing, in general, would be given credence when it directly contradicts what the author gives for objective distances and references for size.
Thanks to the novels, we now have several sources (the manga itself [Yoruichi's information], the films [Fade To Black, 300 ri in all directions to contain catastrophe per Yamamoto but questionable canonicity iirc], and novels (We DO knot ALWAYS LOVE YOU) [takes several people 3 nights' worth of walking just to cross the forest inside Seireitei]) informing us that Seireitei is large enough that it takes a few days to cross the entirety of it, at the very least, and all this information comes from Kubo directly since it's in his works.
Utilizing pixel calcing blatantly ignores these objective references and makes use of artistic freedom to downgrade a verse unfairly and inaccurately. There would be no logical way to dismiss the author's involvement in the creation of these statements and presume that art created to be aesthetic and not cluttered is somehow the 'true' representation when we have the author creating objective and in no way subjective statements.
That's my take on this entire discussion at the very least. We have objectively-given information from the author involved in all of the works, use that instead of questionably-drawn art made to suit specific needs as an artist; or at least, use it if we sincerely care about being accurate and not biased.
Thanks to the novels, we now have several sources (the manga itself [Yoruichi's information], the films [Fade To Black, 300 ri in all directions to contain catastrophe per Yamamoto but questionable canonicity iirc], and novels (We DO knot ALWAYS LOVE YOU) [takes several people 3 nights' worth of walking just to cross the forest inside Seireitei]) informing us that Seireitei is large enough that it takes a few days to cross the entirety of it, at the very least, and all this information comes from Kubo directly since it's in his works.
Utilizing pixel calcing blatantly ignores these objective references and makes use of artistic freedom to downgrade a verse unfairly and inaccurately. There would be no logical way to dismiss the author's involvement in the creation of these statements and presume that art created to be aesthetic and not cluttered is somehow the 'true' representation when we have the author creating objective and in no way subjective statements.
That's my take on this entire discussion at the very least. We have objectively-given information from the author involved in all of the works, use that instead of questionably-drawn art made to suit specific needs as an artist; or at least, use it if we sincerely care about being accurate and not biased.
- 11,504
- 3,074
- 2,519
- 1,364
- Thread starter
- #396
Because the size of the dome comes from a statement, which contradicts pixel scalingDanny1112 said:
You can't say Kubo draws seiretei's size not to scale or inconsistently then try and scale things off Seiretei's size, if you don't understand what's wrong with this then read it over a few times until you do.
- 278
- 192
not to argue with you,but aren't all pixel scalings done through using some sort of statement? for example : if you want to pixel scale seireitei,you usually use some character's heightTataHakai said:
the height in question is given to us by authors statement, and sometimes its hard to believe the X character having Y height (for example: in my case its hard to believe,that Tier Hallibel is only 175 cm tall)
and im pretty sure,that Kubo has ****** up picturing some character's height somewhere in Bleach at least couple of times
but when people want to scale buildings to character's height, they don't care about Kubo's inconsistent character height picturing, they just use numerical value of said height
all i want to say,is that using Seireitei's stated size to pixel scale something is not that far from the thing people do,when they scale something to character's stated height
p.s. im sorry for my horrible english
- 31,370
- 34,117
Well, the whole; taking "three days worth of traveling" statements usually require a lot of guesswork and often leads to Calc Stacking, where as a character's height is the official canon height. Statements about Seireitei are based on the former it's currently using a large country sized diameter for the city's size.
- 31,208
- 27,406
Yeah. It'd probably be different if Kubo had given us a canonical number of Seireitei's measurements - but currently we have to make a guess based on the statements.
"Author's have no sense of scale" is also a trope for a reason. Kubo might not even consider how big forty days of walking in a circle is.
"Author's have no sense of scale" is also a trope for a reason. Kubo might not even consider how big forty days of walking in a circle is.
- 8,153
- 2,177
He gave a number which is close to the statement in Fade to Black, but y'all will just say "movie is non-canon, nothing matters regardless of involvement".
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
