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Bleach Top Tiers Downgrade

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So what are the conclusions here?
 
Antvasima said:
So what are the conclusions here.
We have a new calc for the destruction of Seireitei based on statements - though it should probably be put into a blog and evaluated.

We also have AppleLord's calc which uses scaling to determine the AP of the meteor.

Once both calcs get evaluated, we can create a new separate thread dealing with the issue of which calc should be used going forwards.

Then - ideally - the matter will finally be settled and we'll have made a final decision.
 
Okay. That seems fine. You can send me a message if you need any help later.
 
The matter seems to be already settled here to move forward with statements and Tata's new Seireitei size that was agreed.

It just needs to be put into a blog as well as the destruction statement of it by Gremmy that gives an AP.

Apple's calc already had disagreements and has been made redundant now.
 
From what I remembered Matthew just recommended with going with only statements or only scaling, and it wasn't said which one we should definitely go with.

I'd prefer to hear people's final thoughts on a new thread once both calcs are ready.
 
Users who disagreed with my calc are none-moderators who didn't like the end result. There are no problems with the calc. Staff members and @Matthew agreed with my calc.
 
AppleLord said:
Users who disagreed with my calc are none-moderators who didn't like the end result. There are no problems with the calc. Staff members and @Matthew agreed with my calc.
Its more important to have the calc members' support than any of those.
 
AppleLord said:
Users who disagreed with my calc are none-moderators who didn't like the end result. There are no problems with the calc. Staff members and @Matthew agreed with my calc.
The major issues a few users raised was it "invalidating" the size of Seretei. This is of course false since it was scaling Wandentei and more importantly can only "invalidate" if we consider Kubo's illustrations applicable. @Imade, @Sig, et al have repeatedly bashed Kubo's art as "invalid", particularly with regards to Seretei. meaning this should have no impact to them what so ever.

As far as statements go the problem with Gremmy "destroying" it all is that it is a hypothetical. The statement is pre-tense and he never actually does succeed. Gremmy also states that only he will survive it , which is demonstrated false by at least Zaraki and would mean several other characters would not be able to scale (YHWH for example).

Its at least a good result though, I'll give it credit for being somewhat reasonable with a value comparable to the other one. I still prefer Tata's since there's no "What if" if scenario nor contradictions in power scaling.
 
@Dr.fix

Hypotheticals or "what-ifs" are commonly used. Villain specifically threatens to do X but fails because the hero prevents that ending.
 
Callsign Castle said:
@Dr.fix
Hypotheticals or "what-ifs" are commonly used. Villain specifically threatens to do X but fails because the hero prevents that ending.
Why isn't Yhwach 5-B then?
 
I used the city landscape of Silbern not Seireitei which is what Greemy was about to destroy. Seireitei was in the Quincy dimension at the time.
 
Yhwach isn't 5-B because the thread to upgrade him back to 5-B still hasn't been made yet. Also let's stay on topic cause I'd much rather have this finished than have it stay in limbo like all the other threads.
 
This thread has nothing to do with 5-B Yhwach, it's about the meteor calc revising all the current High 6-A characters. Anyway, I agree that it's preferable calc group members evaluate the blogs. TataHakai seems to like AppleLord's calc by the looks of it.
 
It's entirely a matter of consistency for me

If we're going to go by statements like Imade wants to then we need to disregard pixel scaling for Bleach since the argument is that Kubo has shown many times to be a vastly inconsistent drawer in terms of proportion

If we're going to go by pixel scaling then we need to disregard statements because they massively contradict one another, not even by a bit like other authors but by like, hundreds of times difference

This is honestly a question that needs to be discussed for the whole verse and not just this particular calc, because this isn't the first time or calc we have the statements vs pixel scaling argument for bleach (las noches is another example)
 
How would light novels feats be calc if we decide to go with pixel scaling instead of statements? That automatically eliminates the pixel scaling option and forces us to accept the statement option.
 
As I understand it there are many statements regarding X character being<=>Y character in the supplemantary novels, so provided we already have a calc for someone in the chain that will do just fine. Assuming we need to use novels at all.
 
AppleLord said:
How would light novels feats be calc if we decide to go with pixel scaling instead of statements? That automatically eliminates the pixel scaling option and forces us to accept the statement option.
Light novel statements aren't contradicted by visuals because there are no visuals

It's not just that statements in bleach are automatically wrong because they're statements, it's because visually things like seiretei and las noches are not as big as they're stated to be
 
@Dr.Fix

You're contradicting yourself and don't seem to be aware that the wiki is riddled with theoretical feats. Also via you're logic of no one else surviving the meteor implies you think Gremmy's power is some absolute force. It's clear he imagined that no one else but him could survive this and Kenpachi shattered this reality he had thought. If you wish to get rid of theoretical feats go make a wiki wide crt about it.

And you're last sentence made no sense as well, every Gremmy calc is theoretical lol.
 
if the art inconsistency is a issue cant you use the very first version plus the statements and just go from there, as an old artist myself i never draw the same even if its the same thing i might change a few things if i were to redo something and as a manga where you normally gotta draw the same shit over and over itt wont always be the same... look at signatures... do anyone write them the same everytime..i sure dont as long as the size of the old arts vs the new is similar its good to me
 
My calc was deemed acceptable and reasonable by Soldier Blue and Tata.

Im hoping we can move forward with it and the utilizations of statements from now on.
 
Wandereich is calc'd using the same methodology; combining statements followed by pixel scaling to Calc Stack the end results. It was agreed to either go by one very specific statement, or simply pixel scale from the ground up without statements. I personally prefer Applelord's calc, but I'm fine with IMade's if that's what the rest of the staff think is more reasonable.
 
That would be redundant and literally what we've been trying to avoid now.

The whole reason we're having this discussion is due to all sides disagreeing with using inconsistent art that is not consistent with statements leading to inflations or deflations.

If that's what he meant then he hasn't kept up with the discussion at all.

We can't use both when they contradict each other.
 
Wrath Of Itachi said:
I think he's talking about the combination of using pixel scaling and statements to find the size. But I'm not 100% sure.
Doesn't exist as far as i'm aware considering there was no reason to ever calculate the size of Wadenreich because it's located in the shadow of Seireitei. When it emerged you see a couple different angels of it replacing Seireitei completely.

Yhwach in the past was a man who conquered countries, so his empire was quite vast.
 
I'm exceptionally confused as to why pixel calcing, in general, would be given credence when it directly contradicts what the author gives for objective distances and references for size.

Thanks to the novels, we now have several sources (the manga itself [Yoruichi's information], the films [Fade To Black, 300 ri in all directions to contain catastrophe per Yamamoto but questionable canonicity iirc], and novels (We DO knot ALWAYS LOVE YOU) [takes several people 3 nights' worth of walking just to cross the forest inside Seireitei]) informing us that Seireitei is large enough that it takes a few days to cross the entirety of it, at the very least, and all this information comes from Kubo directly since it's in his works.

Utilizing pixel calcing blatantly ignores these objective references and makes use of artistic freedom to downgrade a verse unfairly and inaccurately. There would be no logical way to dismiss the author's involvement in the creation of these statements and presume that art created to be aesthetic and not cluttered is somehow the 'true' representation when we have the author creating objective and in no way subjective statements.

That's my take on this entire discussion at the very least. We have objectively-given information from the author involved in all of the works, use that instead of questionably-drawn art made to suit specific needs as an artist; or at least, use it if we sincerely care about being accurate and not biased.
 
Danny1112 said:
Seriously I don't see anything wrong with pixel scaling the meteor with Seretei's dome,so why the complaints?.
Because the size of the dome comes from a statement, which contradicts pixel scaling

You can't say Kubo draws seiretei's size not to scale or inconsistently then try and scale things off Seiretei's size, if you don't understand what's wrong with this then read it over a few times until you do.
 
TataHakai said:
Danny1112 said:
Seriously I don't see anything wrong with pixel scaling the meteor with Seretei's dome,so why the complaints?.
Because the size of the dome comes from a statement, which contradicts pixel scaling
You can't say Kubo draws seiretei's size not to scale or inconsistently then try and scale things off Seiretei's size, if you don't understand what's wrong with this then read it over a few times until you do.
not to argue with you,but aren't all pixel scalings done through using some sort of statement? for example : if you want to pixel scale seireitei,you usually use some character's height

the height in question is given to us by authors statement, and sometimes its hard to believe the X character having Y height (for example: in my case its hard to believe,that Tier Hallibel is only 175 cm tall)

and im pretty sure,that Kubo has ****** up picturing some character's height somewhere in Bleach at least couple of times

but when people want to scale buildings to character's height, they don't care about Kubo's inconsistent character height picturing, they just use numerical value of said height

all i want to say,is that using Seireitei's stated size to pixel scale something is not that far from the thing people do,when they scale something to character's stated height

p.s. im sorry for my horrible english
 
Well, the whole; taking "three days worth of traveling" statements usually require a lot of guesswork and often leads to Calc Stacking, where as a character's height is the official canon height. Statements about Seireitei are based on the former it's currently using a large country sized diameter for the city's size.
 
Yeah. It'd probably be different if Kubo had given us a canonical number of Seireitei's measurements - but currently we have to make a guess based on the statements.

"Author's have no sense of scale" is also a trope for a reason. Kubo might not even consider how big forty days of walking in a circle is.
 
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