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Bleach: Speed upgrade
- Thread starter USklaverei
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- bleach
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After giving this thread a long read I'm still inclined to agree with the upgrades. Ichigo clearly didn't use or create a Shockwave when defecting the arrows, assuming he did isn't supported by any of the Canon media, using the anime for example ( Which is non-canon to my knowledge.) is an invalid counter argument. After all that's an assumption but an assumption that isn't supported by Canon material. As for Ichigo defecting the arrows individually or not I can certainly see where the people who think he didn't come from. But as posted earlier Ichigo has been shown to defect arrows from other Quincy individually, that being said it should be more than enough to justify the assumption that Ichigo did deflect all of them individually. This is how I'm viewing this situation, both sides are using a decent amount of assumptions however I personally think that the pro upgrade side has the better assumption which is backed by the Manga and other Ichigo feats.
Also for the love of God, please let's not turn this into a shit storm by mentioning Matt on a Bleach thread. That's essentially like me mixing coke and mentos together and I'm almost positive Matt himself is tired of participating in Bleach threads. I mean really let's keep it civil, let's try not to start anything that'll get out of hand. And that goes for both sides.
Also for the love of God, please let's not turn this into a shit storm by mentioning Matt on a Bleach thread. That's essentially like me mixing coke and mentos together and I'm almost positive Matt himself is tired of participating in Bleach threads. I mean really let's keep it civil, let's try not to start anything that'll get out of hand. And that goes for both sides.
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Is rather sad that's the case, but is a million times better to not comment about it. You know, not throwing more fuel into the fire.PaChi2 said:
I agree with the upgrade, btw.
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Basically what I want to say.Rin The Dragon Empress said:
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So, I'm still somewhat getting used to the hang of this site: is it a pretty common tactic for persons to attempt to utilize bandwagon appeals and blatant appeals to authority when they cannot provide any succinct, clear evidence to support their side of an argument?
On one side we have consistent contextual inference and clear feats; on the other we have varied disagreement based on appeals to factors outside the evidence as well as base assertions of 'well clearly [X] happened this way'; unless strong, canon evidence exists to support any attempted holes being poked in the OP, these sorts of arguments ought to just be ignored.
If two sides are opposed and one has evidence to back it, that side is almost always assuredly more accurate, especially in a battleboard forum. Unless distinct evidence to the contrary within primary canon exists, this shouldn't be a discussion that continues beyond 'Upgrade can be applied'.
On one side we have consistent contextual inference and clear feats; on the other we have varied disagreement based on appeals to factors outside the evidence as well as base assertions of 'well clearly [X] happened this way'; unless strong, canon evidence exists to support any attempted holes being poked in the OP, these sorts of arguments ought to just be ignored.
If two sides are opposed and one has evidence to back it, that side is almost always assuredly more accurate, especially in a battleboard forum. Unless distinct evidence to the contrary within primary canon exists, this shouldn't be a discussion that continues beyond 'Upgrade can be applied'.
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"Appeal to authority" is one of the oldest accusations in the book. That's not what's going on at all. Also, if the opposing argument is all quantity and no quality, then it doesn't hold any weight at all. 7 billion times zero is still zero. Anyway, Soldier Blue does legit have the best sense of judgement regarding Bleach and he says he reread the whole chapter and confirmed that he agrees more with TataHakai. Being also doesn't give anyone permission to discriminate against minorities; all groups need to be respected, not just the majority.
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It's not an accusation so much as just a simple blatant truth; I'm genuinely curious if that's the go-to around here, was moreso my question, and I very much so would appreciate someone giving their honest opinion on it, there's no point engaging a denial of its factual occurrence.
The argument for the upgrade has contextual inferences via explicitly similar feats and well-founded, deductive logic (If Person A in Situation B performs Action C and achieves Result D, then Person A in Situation B`[any situation explicitly similar to B in all aspects] shown to achieve Result D reasonably can be stated to have performed Action C unless explicitly otherwise shown).
I legitimately don't care who takes a stance opposing the above logic statement, if they oppose it they better damn well have a strongly-sourced reason as to why they disagree, not a simple 'I read it and agree with the opposition to this'. Soldier Blue's statement was there's an onus to defend the proposition (which is entirely fair and how it ought to occur) and there is indeed reasonable defense of said proposition.
The only opposition is 'Okay but what if ichigo acted in an entirely different manner, you can't prove he didn't do just this' when there is already an example of explicitly similar behavior from earlier on in the precise same arc. Very good rationale must be given to entirely dismiss this as strong evidence for his behavior in regards to, and therefore his reaction to, Situation B`.
The only provided rationale for the opposition is non-canon evidence. The proponent rationale is contextual deductive inference. One of these is objectively superior to the other.
The argument for the upgrade has contextual inferences via explicitly similar feats and well-founded, deductive logic (If Person A in Situation B performs Action C and achieves Result D, then Person A in Situation B`[any situation explicitly similar to B in all aspects] shown to achieve Result D reasonably can be stated to have performed Action C unless explicitly otherwise shown).
I legitimately don't care who takes a stance opposing the above logic statement, if they oppose it they better damn well have a strongly-sourced reason as to why they disagree, not a simple 'I read it and agree with the opposition to this'. Soldier Blue's statement was there's an onus to defend the proposition (which is entirely fair and how it ought to occur) and there is indeed reasonable defense of said proposition.
The only opposition is 'Okay but what if ichigo acted in an entirely different manner, you can't prove he didn't do just this' when there is already an example of explicitly similar behavior from earlier on in the precise same arc. Very good rationale must be given to entirely dismiss this as strong evidence for his behavior in regards to, and therefore his reaction to, Situation B`.
The only provided rationale for the opposition is non-canon evidence. The proponent rationale is contextual deductive inference. One of these is objectively superior to the other.
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The only evidence the pro upgrade side has is trying to take context from a different scene and apply it here
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Would you like a dictionary for that hypocrisy?DarkDragonMedeus said:
It's taking context of a similar scene to determine said character's behavior and actions. We know what he did in a similar scene so why would he do something different in an exact same situation?Paul Frank said:
Don't leave out context.
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Very unnecessary, especially if doubled hypocrisy is the motivation behind it. Anyway, TataHakai has explained in detail why reacting to each projectile one by one simply doesn't work here unless the projectiles were fired consecutively. And even if it did, DonTalk confirmed that reacting to projectiles even at close range won't stack speed. Damage has also been discussing in detail the flaws of the calculation as well.
Anyway, if you want to know what real hypocrisy is, Sigurd yelled at TataHakai for his "Audacity to call your words headcanon" which I can agree is mildly offensive, but that's ignoring the fact that just about every single upgrade supporter has been doing the same thing without getting called out for. People act like staff members are supposed to be these all perfect gods when that's impossible for anyone to be. But we've actually tried countless times to be reasonable and lenient with many normal users, but a lot of users literally throw stones at us to hide their hands in return. We haven't even Hakai'd a single post or closed this thread.
Anyway, if you want to know what real hypocrisy is, Sigurd yelled at TataHakai for his "Audacity to call your words headcanon" which I can agree is mildly offensive, but that's ignoring the fact that just about every single upgrade supporter has been doing the same thing without getting called out for. People act like staff members are supposed to be these all perfect gods when that's impossible for anyone to be. But we've actually tried countless times to be reasonable and lenient with many normal users, but a lot of users literally throw stones at us to hide their hands in return. We haven't even Hakai'd a single post or closed this thread.
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I've been quietly observing this thread for quite a while now without saying anything. To me it's pretty clear, OP has sound logic and is backing his arguments consistently with direct evidence from the manga. The opposers are simply denying it with situations that haven't occured, or even implied to have occured in the manga and repeatedly asking for evidence (which the OP/people that agree with OP have already given several times).
This is going nowhere as those in disagreement of OP are simply repeating the same, debunked claims with nothing new to bring to the table. Also saying things like so-and-so would have disagreed with this holds no value in this argument and shows clear desperation in the people in disagreement of OP.
Either upgrade wins or close the thread.
This is going nowhere as those in disagreement of OP are simply repeating the same, debunked claims with nothing new to bring to the table. Also saying things like so-and-so would have disagreed with this holds no value in this argument and shows clear desperation in the people in disagreement of OP.
Either upgrade wins or close the thread.
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@Dragon
The argument against this should be a problem with the math and/or DontTalk's thing, not if Ichigo didn't do it, as has been shown and mentioned multiple times in the thread the fact that in a similar context, he did so.
That's the overall problem as I see it.
(Regarding IMade's comment, very unnecesary imo).
The argument against this should be a problem with the math and/or DontTalk's thing, not if Ichigo didn't do it, as has been shown and mentioned multiple times in the thread the fact that in a similar context, he did so.
That's the overall problem as I see it.
(Regarding IMade's comment, very unnecesary imo).
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I think it's fairly obvious what the result of this thread is: until anyone can logically disprove the logical statement I give above, that of
>The argument for the upgrade has contextual inferences via explicitly similar feats and well-founded, deductive logic (If Person A in Situation B performs Action C and achieves Result D, then Person A in Situation B`[any situation explicitly similar to B in all aspects] shown to achieve Result D reasonably can be stated to have performed Action C unless explicitly otherwise shown).
then the upgrades are good to go as-is.
There's no real tangible reason for a detractor continuing further unless it be to engage that specific point, to the extent such that said detractor must engage that specific point with explicit, canon evidence as to why Ichigo would not reasonably perform Action C in Situation B` to detract from any upgrades being put into place.
Anyone taking issue with the math itself would be arguing an entirely different beast and should do so on the blog itself imho, since numerous calc members were already involved and many apparently okay'd the thread. Math is their forte, so any issues there ought to be taken up with them.
Again, though, it's fruitless to try to bring up whether or not Ichigo did it at all at this point any longer since I have given demonstrable logic that he reasonably did what the OP claims him to have done, and no sufficient evidence to the contrary has been brought forth.
>The argument for the upgrade has contextual inferences via explicitly similar feats and well-founded, deductive logic (If Person A in Situation B performs Action C and achieves Result D, then Person A in Situation B`[any situation explicitly similar to B in all aspects] shown to achieve Result D reasonably can be stated to have performed Action C unless explicitly otherwise shown).
then the upgrades are good to go as-is.
There's no real tangible reason for a detractor continuing further unless it be to engage that specific point, to the extent such that said detractor must engage that specific point with explicit, canon evidence as to why Ichigo would not reasonably perform Action C in Situation B` to detract from any upgrades being put into place.
Anyone taking issue with the math itself would be arguing an entirely different beast and should do so on the blog itself imho, since numerous calc members were already involved and many apparently okay'd the thread. Math is their forte, so any issues there ought to be taken up with them.
Again, though, it's fruitless to try to bring up whether or not Ichigo did it at all at this point any longer since I have given demonstrable logic that he reasonably did what the OP claims him to have done, and no sufficient evidence to the contrary has been brought forth.
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(Adding to my above comment, since is worded poorly. ovo)
Essentially, if there shouldn't be an upgrade, is based on the fact that the calculation has a flawed premise: Mainly, DonTalk's suggestion that speed doesn't stack like this. (Although, if I understood the upgrade correctly, the calc is based on Ichigo's movements vs projectiles with a set speed, not reactions, but for the sake of addressing the argument)
Tata's arguments based on "well, logically it shouldn't have happened because this would do this and this" is flawed from the get go, as on-panel itself, such effects aren't portrayed. Furthermore, we have another scene were the context is basically the same, where Ichigo indeed does what is being suggested.
As such, the more likely outcome should be the one witj more support in-verse. In this case, that Ichigo deflected the attack one by one.
For this reason, Tata's argument that "well logically" should be disregarded imo. The focus should be on the math and how the application of said math is flawed.
However, correct me here if wrong, Dragon, but DontTalk's case refers to reactions, not movement, correct?
Essentially, if there shouldn't be an upgrade, is based on the fact that the calculation has a flawed premise: Mainly, DonTalk's suggestion that speed doesn't stack like this. (Although, if I understood the upgrade correctly, the calc is based on Ichigo's movements vs projectiles with a set speed, not reactions, but for the sake of addressing the argument)
Tata's arguments based on "well, logically it shouldn't have happened because this would do this and this" is flawed from the get go, as on-panel itself, such effects aren't portrayed. Furthermore, we have another scene were the context is basically the same, where Ichigo indeed does what is being suggested.
As such, the more likely outcome should be the one witj more support in-verse. In this case, that Ichigo deflected the attack one by one.
For this reason, Tata's argument that "well logically" should be disregarded imo. The focus should be on the math and how the application of said math is flawed.
However, correct me here if wrong, Dragon, but DontTalk's case refers to reactions, not movement, correct?
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DT is talking about reaction speed, no idea what DDM is talking about.
"That's not calc stacking, but it's not a speed feat. That would only be Massively Hypersonic Perception, which doesn't scale to anyones speed then.
You would need movement for it to be a speed feat."
And guess what this calc is? the speed of ichigo's arms.
Nothing is wrong with the math in the calc, it was reamde from start to finish with Ugarik and accepted by 2 others.
"That's not calc stacking, but it's not a speed feat. That would only be Massively Hypersonic Perception, which doesn't scale to anyones speed then.
You would need movement for it to be a speed feat."
And guess what this calc is? the speed of ichigo's arms.
Nothing is wrong with the math in the calc, it was reamde from start to finish with Ugarik and accepted by 2 others.
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It refers to reactions such as reacting to a X speed projectile from a 0.01 meter way doesn't mean you're 100 times faster than X. If there was actual proof that someone physically moved X times faster than the projectile's speed, then it would be legit. However; comics and manga usually make that difficult to tell who was actively moving faster, and it would be easier to tell if it was animated on screen. In fact, the panels give us little to no detail on how Ichigo actually deflects the arrows. All it shows us is Candice firing the arrows, the feat is done completely off panel, and with the panels instead focus on some people impressed by his strength.
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@Dragon
Naturally.
So bringing DontTalk's suggestion doesn't apply here, and the upgrade, based on the arguments being provided so far, should be good to pass imo.
Naturally.
So bringing DontTalk's suggestion doesn't apply here, and the upgrade, based on the arguments being provided so far, should be good to pass imo.
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Ah, sorry, missed this part.DarkDragonMedeus said:
This is correct. However, as the pro-upgrade side has shown, in a similar context to this scene, Ichigo does in fact deflect the projectiles one by one.
While normally this would be inapplicable, as Paul Frank talks about above, we have further context to support that it's the same case.
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Which again, the feat never happened on panel at all. Which means anything could happen, we still have zero proof that Ichigo moved his arm that much faster than the arrows, nor is there any proof that there were no shock waves or the swords redirecting more than one at once. Also, normally feats he's done in other chapters doesn't always mean he does the same thing here. The Byakuya for example was a literal shockwave to deflect multiple projectiles which is also used in the manga; not just the Anime.
I still think Tata said it best here.TataHakai said:
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@Dragon
Correct, anything could have happen.
But in-verse, we have a more likely explanation based on a similar context to this one. That's why the upgrade should go.
Already addressed why Tata's argument should be disregarded.
Correct, anything could have happen.
But in-verse, we have a more likely explanation based on a similar context to this one. That's why the upgrade should go.
Already addressed why Tata's argument should be disregarded.
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@DDM, to follow up on that. The calc also seems to suggest that Ichigo simply stood still and only moved his arms to deflect the arrows.
When it also entirely possible that Ichigo moved away from the arrows as he deflected them (increasing the distance between him and them and thus extending the amount of time for him to deflect the arrows). Since the feat occurred entirely off-screen, it is difficult to say that this didn't happen at all.
When it also entirely possible that Ichigo moved away from the arrows as he deflected them (increasing the distance between him and them and thus extending the amount of time for him to deflect the arrows). Since the feat occurred entirely off-screen, it is difficult to say that this didn't happen at all.
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>Which again, the feat never happened on panel at all. Which means anything could happen
I'm a little perturbed by the willful ignorance of what I put forth in simplest terms of logical deduction, honestly. You're reiterating a point I have disproven and stated twice now in this thread, which nobody has engaged because (from my point of view) it's too bothersome and defeating to the opposition's point, so it needs to be ignored or else the opposition to the feat's interpretation falls apart under its inadequacy.
>nor is there any proof that there were no shock waves or the swords redirecting more than one at once.
There's also no proof that God doesn't exist, therefore it's reasonable to presume He must, right? An example of how poor this argumentation is, put in other 1-to-1 analogous terms. Russell's Teapot might be a fantastic way to showcase how poor this shifting of burden of proof is, and why the point as-argued is not up to snuff in the face of what evidence has been given.
Again, I have given the direct deductive rationale for why it's reasonable to believe that the OP's interpretation is correct. I would kindly ask we not circle around the glaring issue with the opposition's objections.
I'm a little perturbed by the willful ignorance of what I put forth in simplest terms of logical deduction, honestly. You're reiterating a point I have disproven and stated twice now in this thread, which nobody has engaged because (from my point of view) it's too bothersome and defeating to the opposition's point, so it needs to be ignored or else the opposition to the feat's interpretation falls apart under its inadequacy.
>nor is there any proof that there were no shock waves or the swords redirecting more than one at once.
There's also no proof that God doesn't exist, therefore it's reasonable to presume He must, right? An example of how poor this argumentation is, put in other 1-to-1 analogous terms. Russell's Teapot might be a fantastic way to showcase how poor this shifting of burden of proof is, and why the point as-argued is not up to snuff in the face of what evidence has been given.
Again, I have given the direct deductive rationale for why it's reasonable to believe that the OP's interpretation is correct. I would kindly ask we not circle around the glaring issue with the opposition's objections.
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> Which again, the feat never happened on panel at all.
It's right there in the pictures posted.
> Which means anything could happen.
Which is why he have a supported assumption as to how, sometihng pretty common for calcs here.
> we still have zero proof that Ichigo moved his arm that much faster than the arrows.
What are you talking about? if he didn't then how and why would they say he deflected them when they were centimeters away?
> nor is there any proof that there were no shock waves or the swords redirecting more than one at once.
Please provide the images of the shockwave because you guys have posted literally nothing but conjecture.
> Also, normally feats he's done in other chapters doesn't always mean he does the same thing here.
This literally goes against what you just said, you're arguing he did shcokwaves based off nothing and we posted something he did exactly the same like 2 days ago in-verse time.
> The Byakuya for example was a literal shockwave to deflect multiple projectiles which is also used in the manga; not just the Anime.
I've never seen Ichigo do this with 2 swords so what you think is he did a completely new action?
It's right there in the pictures posted.
> Which means anything could happen.
Which is why he have a supported assumption as to how, sometihng pretty common for calcs here.
> we still have zero proof that Ichigo moved his arm that much faster than the arrows.
What are you talking about? if he didn't then how and why would they say he deflected them when they were centimeters away?
> nor is there any proof that there were no shock waves or the swords redirecting more than one at once.
Please provide the images of the shockwave because you guys have posted literally nothing but conjecture.
> Also, normally feats he's done in other chapters doesn't always mean he does the same thing here.
This literally goes against what you just said, you're arguing he did shcokwaves based off nothing and we posted something he did exactly the same like 2 days ago in-verse time.
> The Byakuya for example was a literal shockwave to deflect multiple projectiles which is also used in the manga; not just the Anime.
I've never seen Ichigo do this with 2 swords so what you think is he did a completely new action?
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The Byakuya feat isn't confirmed done via shockwave. Ichigo hadn't made shockwaves even at that point in the story, we don't calc it since there isn't context of what Ichigo would do or did since it doesnt have the evidence in this feat.
This is a false analogy.
This is a false analogy.
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@Xulvez, don't shame religion over this discussion please. We're debating the powers and abilities of fictional characters, there's no reason to be so bashful. Also arguing a against what you consider conjectures with more conjectures is kind of moot.
@Sigurd, of the feat. Yes they're in the blog but there's still absolutely nothing.
Damage also brought up more possible points about Ichigo possibly moving back while redirecting projectiles.
@Sigurd, of the feat. Yes they're in the blog but there's still absolutely nothing.
Damage also brought up more possible points about Ichigo possibly moving back while redirecting projectiles.
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When it also entirely possible that Ichigo moved away from the arrows as he deflected them (increasing the distance between him and them and thus extending the amount of time for him to deflect the arrows). Since the feat occurred entirely off-screen, it is difficult to say that this didn't happen at all.
how can he do that when he was Surrounded by them?
how can he do that when he was Surrounded by them?
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DarkDragon, if you took that to be bashing religion, it is apparent you do not understand what rationale was being utilized, and did not read the resource I linked you for a fact.
I'm a bit disappointed, but it's pretty blatant that no counter to the logical deduction given exists on your end as evidence by the unwillingness to engage the actual argument in lieu of obfuscation, thus the upgrade stands as-is unless an issue with the math is taken up.
I'm a bit disappointed, but it's pretty blatant that no counter to the logical deduction given exists on your end as evidence by the unwillingness to engage the actual argument in lieu of obfuscation, thus the upgrade stands as-is unless an issue with the math is taken up.
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What is this???Damage3245 said:
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@Xulrev Your delivery and timing of it was what very strongly implied it, it's best not to bring up those names at all. And that wasn't the primary thing being considered about there being a possible shockwave, the primary thing is just the fact that everyone else is hammering in the ground that he deflected each projectile one by one while standing still when no one knows the actual method. But TataHakai who is very well in depth when it comes to mathematics and calculations says it doesn't make sense for him to do it one by one when his swords are obviously much bigger and can generate strong winds with every strike.
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Fair DarkDragon, but I merely want to strongly assert the fact that I am not biased against religion and the aspersion cast against me as such is pretty insulting. It was a mere analogy to showcase the flaws present in your argument.
> can generate strong winds with every strike.
Ca generate. Not always do, not will generate. It's a presumption, and does not adequately counter the deductive reasoning I have laid out quite clearly.
> can generate strong winds with every strike.
Ca generate. Not always do, not will generate. It's a presumption, and does not adequately counter the deductive reasoning I have laid out quite clearly.
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First he didn't deflect them all, to shockwaves and strong winds.... What more are you guys going pull out of thin air?
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- Thread starter
- #274
Sometimes your desperation to try to reduce things ends up turning against you.Damage3245 said:
If Ichigo did this, it would possibly give a greater result, since he would have to move away and repel the arrows, consequently increasing the distance he moved.
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This is a pretty bad idea.Antvasima said:
Literally all points of the anti-upgrade has been estudied and answered throught multiple reply, by many other members, close this thread just because Soldier aren't agree is a bad idea, it ignore all the other constructive (see Xulrev's posts) agreement regarding the upgrade.
Another thread seem necessary since the pro-upgrade arguments aren't debunked yet.
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Just read this nice post here. https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/2971537#249
We've provided evidence dozens of times in this thread and all the opposition has done is spout conjecture, and use fallacies. They've provided nothing that supports their argument from the manga.
We've provided evidence dozens of times in this thread and all the opposition has done is spout conjecture, and use fallacies. They've provided nothing that supports their argument from the manga.
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And it was already addressed that the entire feat has been done off panel, meaning the entire calc is nothing but sheer conjecture. Not to mention the calc still didn't show evidence to prove it was one by one.
I also agree that closing this would be a good idea.
I also agree that closing this would be a good idea.
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