Bleach: Speed upgrade

USklaverei · Apr 29, 2019

This and this calculation were accepted by the members of the calculation, but Tatahakai questioned one, specific to Ichigo's. This topic will discuss this.

To make things easier, I'll leave Tata's arguments and mine here.

Tata: Mainly the assumption that Ichigo individually deflected all of them one by one when that makes no sense, this reminds me of the senbonzakura calculatio

Hell even assuming Ichigo's sword is about a meter long, a single swing would take out multiple of them at once as it's bigger than not only the Heiling pfeil but the distance between them added onto that.

That's not even assuming simply the shockwaves of him waving his sword around would move several of them away too (same problem with the senbonzakura calc).

USklaverei: This is different from the calculus senbonzakura, since, unlike the petals, Heilig's pfeil was not joined / fused, there was a distance separating the arrows from each other. Against the senbonzkura, basically Ichigo could move the sword in all directions, which still reached the petals, but not here.

The assumption that he individually deviated all of them one by one, comes from the quotation from Liltotto, where she says that he redirected the whole Heilig pfeil. If Ichigo had simply swung his Zanpakuto, the Heilig pfeil would not be redirected, but rather dissipated, as we see here.

Everything leads to indicate that this talent, is similar to what he did with Kirg, where Ichigo "redirects" the Heilig pfeil that "explodes" behind him. This is exactly like the next scene where Ichigo redirects the whole Heilig pfeil.

And here we go

Damage3245 · Apr 29, 2019

Taking both arguments into consideration, I think Tata's makes the most sense. There isn't much indication he redirected each one individually.

Also, does anyone find it weird that we assume Candice's arrows travel at the speed of lightning due to her Schrift but all the other Sternritter girls with very different Schrifts can shoot their arrows just as fast?

M3X_2.0 · Apr 29, 2019

Damage3245 said:
Also, does anyone find it weird that we assume Candice's arrows travel at the speed of lightning due to her Schrift but all the other Sternritter girls with very different Schrifts can shoot their arrows just as fast?

Me. Thats the same thing as an lightning attack keeping up with an light attack, or attacks keeping up with others on the same scene. It is something common on fiction.

Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye · Apr 30, 2019

The Ichigo calc is fine, multiple example were posted and explainations, so it's a valid assumption. Also via Tata's logic the arrows would have gotten destroyed like we've seen every time and is also completely unsupported by what we saw (what shockwave?).

Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye · Apr 30, 2019

Damage3245 said:
Taking both arguments into consideration, I think Tata's makes the most sense. There isn't much indication he redirected each one individually.
Also, does anyone find it weird that we assume Candice's arrows travel at the speed of lightning due to her Schrift but all the other Sternritter girls with very different Schrifts can shoot their arrows just as fast?

Doesn't mean much, just means they're capable of shooting them that fast as well unless you think Candice has the fastest arrows in all of Bleach.

USklaverei · Apr 30, 2019

@Damage3245

It's like I pointed out, Tata's argument is basically he thinking that Ichigo could have done it with a single move, but I unmasked this by giving examples that if he did this, Heilig pfeil would not be redirected but rather dissipated, so would I I have shown an example of him redirecting the Heilig pfeil and what happens next.

Heilig pfeil the others accompanied, they escalade to this, in addition to having done involving other Heilig pfeil giving MHS + / Sub-Relativist, so it would not be strange not.

Warren_Valion · Apr 30, 2019

Damage3245 said:
Also, does anyone find it weird that we assume Candice's arrows travel at the speed of lightning due to her Schrift but all the other Sternritter girls with very different Schrifts can shoot their arrows just as fast?

There are no assumptions.

Candice shoots her lightning.

And the others arrows' kept up with hers.

It's kind of dumb why that happens, but it just does. Fiction being fiction.

Peter_"Quicksilver"_Maximoff · Apr 30, 2019

Damage3245 said:
Taking both arguments into consideration, I think Tata's makes the most sense. There isn't much indication he redirected each one individually.
Also, does anyone find it weird that we assume Candice's arrows travel at the speed of lightning due to her Schrift but all the other Sternritter girls with very different Schrifts can shoot their arrows just as fast?

Besides doing the exact same thing before?

AppleLord · Apr 30, 2019

Is no one gonna mentioned the calc staking in the second one? This is the same reason why my Ichigo calc wasn't accepted.

Peter_"Quicksilver"_Maximoff · Apr 30, 2019

Where do you see calc stacking?

Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye · Apr 30, 2019

Ehm this isn't calc stacking lol.

Warren_Valion · Apr 30, 2019

AppleLord said:
Is no one gonna mentioned the calc staking in the second one? This is the same reason why my Ichigo calc wasn't accepted.

Where's the calc stacking?

Wrath_Of_Itachi · Apr 30, 2019

Isnt the sub-rel+ calc being contested?

Peter_"Quicksilver"_Maximoff · Apr 30, 2019

USklaverei · Apr 30, 2019

Wrath Of Itachi said:
Isnt the sub-rel+ calc being contested?

This topic is for to discuss the new accepted calculations.

AppleLord · Apr 30, 2019

Ichigo's calc was rejected because I couldn't use Candice Lightning and this calc uses the same method.

LSirLancelotDuLacl · Apr 30, 2019

Did you check the thread discussion Apple? Perhaps USK gave good arguments for why it wouldn't count as stacking even if it seemed to be at first glance.

Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye · Apr 30, 2019

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:AppleLord/Ichigo's_Full_Shikai_Speed_Upgrade ? You randomly gave Ichigo lightning speed, which you know clearly isn't accepted here unless specifically stated and you're comparing this to candice who's abilitites have been accepted as lightning speed since forever?

IMadeThisOn8-1-2017 · Apr 30, 2019

Peter "Quicksilver" Maximoff said:
Besides doing the exact same thing before?

I was on the fence about this calc, you've swayed me over.

This is literally showing Ichigo deflecting multiple Heilig Pfeil individually.

No shockwaves nor hitting multiple at once, the sfx of the swatting even line up with the amount of Heilig Pfeils.

Damage3245 · Apr 30, 2019

The problem is that we don't see Ichigo redirecting the arrows of the girls on-panel, we don't even have helpful clues like sound effects.

Peter_"Quicksilver"_Maximoff · Apr 30, 2019

We do of evidence he did, the statement from Liltotto and the destruction caused be redirecting beforeis litterally the same as now (and in the exact same story arc aswell). Pretty sure i'm just repeating what @USklaverei said at this point.

Damage3245 · Apr 30, 2019

Redirecting them all doesn't mean he redirected each one individually. Tata is right that Ichigo's sword is large enough to deflect multiple arrows simultaneously. The earlier case is good supporting evidence, but that's not proof that's what he actually did in the other situation.

Peter_"Quicksilver"_Maximoff · Apr 30, 2019

Zangestu from before is big enough to deflect the arrows simultaneously, but did Ichigo do that? Nope. Infact, ichigo did the same thing to the petals of senbonzakura. How is it not? It's all about consistency and seeing how he did twice in a near similar fashion before, it's arguable he did it this time.

GilgaArcuied · Apr 30, 2019

I agree with imade.

Damage3245 · Apr 30, 2019

@Quicksilver; Tata did mention the Senbonzakura calc and how that had the same flaw.

M11UTD · Apr 30, 2019

Tata's argument seems like a headcanon tbh. It doesn't matter what happened 400 chapters ago unless you can show a shockwave of course, Liltotto said that he redirected the whole Heilig pfeil and that's pretty much all we need.

Peter_"Quicksilver"_Maximoff · Apr 30, 2019

Damage3245 said:
@Quicksilver; Tata did mention the Senbonzakura calc and how that had the same flaw.

Not talking about the calc, just the feat solely.

Damage3245 · Apr 30, 2019

@Quicksilver; the calc is based on the idea that Ichigo redirect million of Senbonzakura petals individually. Instead of just a few strikes that redirected multiple petals at once.

EDIT: Does Tata know that this thread was made?

AppleLord · Apr 30, 2019

Sigurd Snake in The Eye said:
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:AppleLord/Ichigo's_Full_Shikai_Speed_Upgrade ? You randomly gave Ichigo lightning speed, which you know clearly isn't accepted here unless specifically stated and you're comparing this to candice who's abilitites have been accepted as lightning speed since forever?

I didn't randomly gave anything. The second calc uses Candice lightning speed to do another calc.

Peter_"Quicksilver"_Maximoff · Apr 30, 2019

Damage3245 said:
@Quicksilver; the calc is based on the idea that Ichigo redirect million of Senbonzakura petals individually. Instead of just a few strikes that redirected multiple petals at once.

EDIT: Does Tata know that this thread was made?

Dude, I'm just talking about the feat, not the calc. It's still multiple swords swings, not 1 or even 2 which is what I'm getting at.

USklaverei · Apr 30, 2019

The context is different.

In your calculation, you used one made by Ichigo and applied in another to justify your speed.

Basically it's like this:

- Ichigo reacts to Candice's rays

- Ichigo previously traveled 9 hours

- Uses the speed of light and multiplies by time

The reason you are accumulating is that you have climbed your speed at different times, since you can not prove that you traveled at that speed.

In addition, his calculation is clearly a circulating PS, you used Ichigo's speed, calculated the distance and then calculated the speed of Ichigo.

It's different here, I just gave the Heilig pfeil a speed they demonstrated and Ichigo reacts to them in the same scene.

AppleLord · Apr 30, 2019

All I did was take the one week statement * Lightning Speed / by the timeframe that took Ichigo = Speed.

TataHakai · Apr 30, 2019

I still stand by my point

If you want i can pixel scale the distance between each heiling pfeil and it will show that the distance PLUS the size of the heiling pfeil's isn't even half the size of the sword, ichigo would literally have to avoid hitting the heilig pfeil as he swung for them one by one like the calc suggests he does

Which contextually makes no sense, are you telling me Ichigo would've been weaving his sword in and out of the attacks to carefully not hit the ones next to it? Hell that doesn't even make sense anyways considering your Calc suggests Ichigo swung his sword nearlu 2 meters everytime which again...is MORE than not only the size of the attacks but the distance between them added together.

USklaverei · Apr 30, 2019

@Apple

But you can not prove that he was traveling at that speed, that's the point.

@Tata

It would not make sense if Ichigo had not done this before, but he already did, I gave examples proving my point. I also showed that your point is flawed, since if he had done what you said, they would not have been redirected but rather dissipated.

And no, the calculation suggests that he moved 1 meter per Heilig pfeil, just as he did with Kirg's.

Peter_"Quicksilver"_Maximoff · Apr 30, 2019

You know ichigo has two swords right? One large one and one small one.

USklaverei · Apr 30, 2019

And he used both to do that , so much so that here , shows him using them..

AppleLord · Apr 30, 2019

USklaverei said:
@Apple
But you can not prove that he was traveling at that speed, that's the point.

Ichigo says he is gonna hurry up because the war started 3 hours ago and he doesn't want his friends to die.

Ichigo uses shunpo speed which is a technique that takes you from point A to point B.

Ichigo crash landed on arrival. He didn't stopped half way since he can run for weeks and fight for months in previous arcs.

Passively out-speed lightning on arrival with Shunpo.

If anything is a low-ball to say he is going down at lightning speeds.

USklaverei · Apr 30, 2019

But in your calculation, you used the 7-day citation instead of the 9-hour quote.

His calculation is almost the same as mine, but in mine, I found the final speed of Ichigo, had his initial, I found his acceleration and with that the distance. In case, I proved that he was at that speed at that time, his case is different for that.

Also, I need to update it, since the current radius of Seireitei has changed.

AppleLord · Apr 30, 2019

I used the timeframe expected for Ichigo to get there by the people who trained him, plus the average lightning speed from the wiki and the actual timeframe that took to get there.

Damage3245 · Apr 30, 2019

Ichigo crash landed on arrival. He didn't stopped half way since he can run for weeks and fight for months in previous arcs.

Pretty sure the 'fighting for months' was a mental battle which would be a different kind of stamina drain than a physical fight.

Bleach: Speed upgrade

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