Bleach: Speed upgrade

[Antvasima]

Well, going by that argument, it seems likely that he did the same thing in both situations, but not absolutely certain. The new situation might have had swifter projectiles that did not give him the time to handle them all individually, for example.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

@Antvasima

He's vastly superior to them already and has 2 swords now, plus they state he deflected all of them.

 

[Paul_Frank]

Deflected all doesn't mean deflected all one by one with a single sword

 

[Damage3245]

@Sigurd; I believe the point is that though we know the end result is that the arrows were all deflected, the feat being offscreen makes it impossible to state exactly how he did the feat.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

And it was already addressed that the entire feat has been done off panel, meaning the entire calc is nothing but sheer conjecture. Not to mention the calc still didn't show evidence to prove it was one by one.

I also agree that closing this would be a good idea.

Lol you're complaining about this feat but the wiki is riddled with feats that truly never happend and is only theoretical? This feat did happend right there in the chapter. Saying it didn't doesn't change anything.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

@Sigurd; I believe the point is that though we know the end result is that the arrows were all deflected, the feat being offscreen makes it impossible to state exactly how he did the feat.

I'm sure you're aware of what a supported assumption is right? This isn't an argument.

 

[Antvasima]

It does seem like speculation if it was done off-screen, yes, and several wrongs do not make a right.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

It does seem like speculation if it was done off-screen, yes, and several wrongs do not make a right.

The only speculation is the method which is supported by the manga and looks exactly the same down to the arrows detonating.

 

[Antvasima]

Maybe a "likely" would be a good compromise then?

 

[Damage3245]

Either a Likely or a Possibly would be better than saying he definitely did it.

 

[Antvasima]

@Damage3245

Okay.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Maybe a "likely" would be a good compromise then?

For it to be "likely" that would mean the other side has provided evidence, which they haven't. Everyone in the thread agrees with us besides the same 4 people because we defended our claim and they can't.

Besides there is another feat at Sub-Rel+ that was accepted and a thread for another one that will be sub-rel+.

 

[Antvasima]

If the feat happened off-page, but it is highly probable that he deflected all of the projectiles, then "likely" is what we should use as a praxis. In addition, that would be a way forward out of this deadlock.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Like I said, that would be fine if there wasn't other feats at this rating is what I'm saying. So there isn't really a point for the "likely". This was rel before but Sklaveri fixed it to be sub-rel+.

 

[Damage3245]

@Sigurd; Tata plans on creating a thread to address the other Sub-Rel+ feats in the verse.

EDIT: On a somewhat related note, I've noticed that there is a huge lack of speed calcs in the Calculations section of the Bleach verse page. Are there really that few calcs for the verse?

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Good for him, but this is the present not the future.

 

[Antvasima]

Tone down the hostility please. Anyway, I am personally fine with if we apply this calculation, as long as we use "likely" first, to make sure that we can reach a consensus here. Otherwise you will all have to continue to waste your time arguing about this with no conclusion.

 

[PaChi2]

>Address the other sub-rel+ feats.

Shudders

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

I'm not being hostile. But you're not understanding my point lol. He's already Sub-Rel+ via another feat. This calc here was gonna upgrade him to rel but it was downgraded to sub-rel+ essentially making it a supporting feat for now. So you can't put "likely" if he already had this rating in the 1st place.

 

[AstralKing7]

To be fair I don't agree with any of it. If the feat happened of panel then we can't use it. Other series definitely suffer from the same rules if we wanna be fair here guys

 

[PaChi2]

If this is only a supporting feat why is the CRT called "Speed upgrade"?

Honest question.

 

[Damage3245]

If this is only a supporting feat why is the CRT called "Speed upgrade"?
Honest question.

Because originally the calc would have upgraded Ichigo from Sub-Rel+ to Rel.

Then the calc was revised and downgraded to just Sub-Rel+.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

If this is only a supporting feat why is the CRT called "Speed upgrade"?

Honest question.

I literally said why...

 

[HST_Master]

If this is only a supporting feat why is the CRT called "Speed upgrade"?

Honest question.

It was originally Rel.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I suppose that this works as a supporting feat then.

 

[Xulrev]

@Ant

I do believe there is a conclusion, and to this point in the thread not a single person who disagrees with the calc has been able to meaningfully dispute the following statement of mine:

>The argument for the upgrade has contextual inferences via explicitly similar feats and well-founded, deductive logic (If Person A in Situation B performs Action C and achieves Result D, then Person A in Situation B`[any situation explicitly similar to B in all aspects] shown to achieve Result D reasonably can be stated to have performed Action C unless explicitly otherwise shown).

>I legitimately don't care who takes a stance opposing the above logic statement, if they oppose it they better damn well have a strongly-sourced reason as to why they disagree, not a simple 'I read it and agree with the opposition to this'. Soldier Blue's statement was there's an onus to defend the proposition (which is entirely fair and how it ought to occur) and there is indeed reasonable defense of said proposition.

This is a pretty straightforward logic statement based on deductive reasoning for why the only reasonably action Ichigo would have taken is 'Deflect all arrows individually'. This is direct supporting evidence.

If others believe a compromise is the best choice that's fine, but I see no reason for it in the face of exactly zero supporting evidence or rationale on the opposition's side. The pro-calc side has a rationally-consistent and succinct means of proving what Ichigo would do in this situation; the anti-calc side have theories and headcanon as to what might have happened, and each theory has as much validity as the claim he turned into Goku and hakai'd each arrow away off-panel, which is to say none.

Just a summary of where the discussion stands as of now.

 

[PaChi2]

What. The. Actual. Hell.

Why are you in a 300+ post thread over a calc that wouldnt even affect the verse? What. The moment the calc stopped being Rel this should have been closed. I was under the impression that when the thread was created the calc was already Sub-rel.

Please someone close this. Pointless thread is pointless.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Because the argument was about the legitimacy of it not the results, this is what the thread was about if you read the OP.

 

[Dangai_Ichigo]

How about we say that both scenarios happened ? I mean come on Ichigo was showing off for the Sternritter girls basically ? Who's to say he, one, deflected the first wave or at least the ones he could deflect in time and two, made the deflected arrows hit the remaining ones ?

 

[Xulrev]

If that is directed at myself, PaChi, the answer would be "for accuracy of the verse".

I'm merely offering an aiding hand in showcasing why the point of the OP is a valid one, and the presumptions are rational. You may as well ask anyone why they're in any thread on this site if you're questioning why someone is bringing simple debate skill into a thread to support a position when numerous persons aggressively assault it.

 

[AstralKing7]

Assumptions^

 

[Xulrev]

Astral, to whom is that directed at? If myself, we presume the Sun will rise each and every day. That is an assumption based on a consistent pattern of behavior. If someone were to decry this belief, would you be so quick to point out 'well that's just an assumption'?

 

[PaChi2]

@Xulrev it was directed at no one.

To the calc opposing side: who cares.

To the supporting side: if the calc group gave their blessings, you are good to go.

 

[Xulrev]

I agree with PaChi at the end of the day, honestly.

 

[PaChi2]

The feat happened offscreen, of course both sides will use assumptions to support their claims since we never saw ichigo deflecting anything. So unless the opposing side has another calc with their assumed speed value, they cant simply disregard this one.

You beat maths with maths.

 

[TataHakai]

So unless the opposing side has another calc with their assumed speed value, they cant simply disregard this one.

This is a pretty absurd statement to make, you don't need a calc to debunk a calc, you simply need to debunk the assumptions and values used by it.

How can we have a calc when there is NO feat here? there's literally nothing to calc and that's the problem

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

repeating the same thing dozens of times won't make your argument any better, besides we've already concluded it a couple post ago. His rating stays and if there is an issue with the other sub-rel+ feats that are accepted we'll just add a likely.

 

[TataHakai]

This isn't a "supporting feat" firstly, that's just a lie, this is a higher result than the other calculation that the characters are scaled off from, regardless of whether it's in the same tier or not it's still an upgrade.

Secondly the conversation or argument has never been about whether this was an upgrade or not and entirely on the validity of the calculation, which hasn't changed at all with anything in this thread nor changes to the calculation.

Thirdly "concluded" as in 2-3 people essentially forced it into Ant's hand a miscontrued and fabricated argument.

I keep repeating the same thing because you don't seem to understand what i'm saying.

This thread should be closed but not because the calculation is fine, because it isn't and there's nothing to really discuss considering both arguments are just being pointlessly reiterated.

 

[USklaverei]

you simply need to debunk the assumptions and values used by it.

Yes, just unmask the assumptions and values, but so far nobody has done it.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Regardless of the speed rating changes, the reasoning still needs to be adjusted. The Mimihagi calc for example is fine, but if other calcs are flawed; then those shouldn't be used and we should stick to calcs that are good. TataHakai I think also was going to make a thread for Lilltotto's calc's problems.