Bleach: Speed upgrade

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

@DDM Prove it's what actually happend? I wasn't aware Tata had a manga panel that doesn't exist. Your reasoning (which is just their opinion) is flawed and without a foundation.

That's the entire point of this thread, to provide evidence to suggest what we think Ichigo did isn't what Ichigo actually did. Which not a single one of you provided a scan for so far, pretty much just conjecture.

 

[Damage3245]

Sigurd; you expect us to produce a scan for an off-panel feat?

 

[Xulrev]

I'm absurdly confused by this entire argument.

Person A is objectively a lightning-manipulator whom utilizes projectiles that explicitly carry 5 gigajoules of energy and are made of lightning.

Persons B, C, and D each fire their own projectiles in tandem with Person A, and the question somehow becomes 'How does it make sense for their projectiles to be the same speed', yes?

This is putting the cart before the horse in your presumptions for those in the camp of 'This makes no sense' since you're arguing backwards from the already-presumed position of 'They can't be lightning speed' (known as begging the question or affirming the consequent) and furthermore is a useful tactic in avoiding having to provide evidence defending your proposition.

I'm afraid I'd have to insist on seeing showings that actually disprove the idea of the other Heilig Pfeil being lightning-speed, or see conclusive evidence that Candice with explicit 5 gigajoule lightning arrows somehow is incapable of manipulating lightning (which her power objectively is and utilizes numerous times).

The evidence itself is clear. Candice's projectile is made of lightning, she manipulates lightning. It is lightning. The other arrows matching hers in speed is simply a positive feat for their projectiles.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Sigurd; you expect us to produce a scan for an off-panel feat?

I assumed one existed since DDM is so confident as if Tata posted a scan we've never seen before when none of you have posted literally nothing. All of you are just repeating the same thing or asking random questions. A completely baseless opinion without a foundation. "It's impossible" isn't an argument, you need to prove it.

 

[Dr.Fix]

Somewhat neutral on this, some decent cases on both sides.

Since everyone is focused on how many arrows Ichi hit with each swing I will point out a flaw being skipped over.

>>Also, does anyone find it weird that we assume Candice's arrows travel at the speed of lightning due to her Schrift but all the other Sternritter girls with very different Schrifts can shoot their arrows just as fast?

The mistake is thinking that arrow is pure lightning. Galvano blast looks to be charged with electricity but I'm not sure even that is pure electricity. This one is just a straight up heilig pfeil as stated by Lil. At best it has lightning motif but by that logic Meni's is made out of muscles, Gigi's bones, and Lil's calcium.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

There's also no proof that he deflected each lightning arrow one by one, the feat happened completely off panel. The calc simply puts two assumptions together, it assumes that both Candice fired each arrow all at once rather than consecutively, while at the same time, it also assumes Ichigo deflected them one by one. Which putting both of those together make zero sense. If they were fired all at once, then the most reasonable thing is that he also reacted to them all at once. And if he did deflect them one by one, the most reasonable thing is that Candice fired the lightning bolts consecutively.

Also, just a minor note this scan heavily implies they're more impressive about his strength rather than his speed. It also simply says Redirect, it never says "one by one".

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

DDM it's not just Candice...

 

[KazuiK]

Probably this topic will be the same on the topic of speed of light, no one refuted the argument but closed the topic and concluded that they were not light ..

 

[Dr.Fix]

The scans are already in the blog, TataHakai is just explaining what actually happened; also, it is very condescending and childish to accuse staff members of trolling just for stating our honest opinions and/or explaining our reasonings for why we disagree.

You mean all members yes?

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Its that all four Femritters fired their arrows simultaneously as shown in the panels. Far weaker quincy can fire 1200 arrows a second. Ichigo pulls both swords to deflect the arrows and has shown a similar feat in the exact same arc that he deflects them one by one despite multiple arrows being fired simultaneously.

 

[M11UTD]

The thing is, you are saying Ichigo redirected them all at once but you gotta prove it.

Unless Ichigo has new telekinesis powers or can grow 20 arms, he did do it one by one.

 

[AppleLord]

Its that all four Femritters fired their arrows simultaneously as shown in the panels. Far weaker quincy can fire 1200 arrows a second. Ichigo pulls both swords to deflect the arrows and has shown a similar feat in the exact same arc that he deflects them one by one despite multiple arrows being fired simultaneously.

Is nothing impressive when Ichigo was able to deflect 100 Million blades in the second arc.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Or, swinging his sword one time can generate massive shockwaves; that happens all the time and is one of his most basic abilities. That was TataHakai's true refute. Also, fire 1200 arrows per second isn't the same as firing 1200 arrows in one blast but simply firing one arrow every 1/1200 of a second.

 

[Paul_Frank]

The feat didn't happen on screen so there is no proof he did it 1 by 1

It didn't have to be all at once either it can just be more than one at a time since that is the most reasonable way he could have done it

The panel with all 4 arrow's appearances doesn't even make Candice's arrow look like it is made of lightning it looks like a lightning bolt shaped arrow

Also it is possible he redirected them by flexing his reiatsu since he is that much stronge. This is kinda supported by the fsct that when Candice charges him his outline appears to have both blades sheathed

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

"Also, just a minor note this scan heavily implies they're more impressive about his strength rather than his speed. It also simply says Redirect, it never says "one by one"."

No offense, but you're reaching way to hard.

>implies they're impressed at his strength?

You mean Ichigo? the same guy who was completely blitzing them without effort? the same guy they could hardly keep track of? explain to me what strength has do with anything within the context of that scan like at all.

> it also says redirect, not "1 by 1".

And now were back at the beginning, you know where we posted evidence to support our assumption right in the OP and you've guys have done nothing but throw around conjecture without a single manga panel or statement to support any of your claims?

Also why woulld him deflecting 20 arrows be impressive, when quincy can rapid fire thousands earlier in the series?

 

[M11UTD]

Pretty sure it was already explained why it can't be a shockwave, now you just going in circles.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

@Apple

I know but no one seems to accept that at all.

@DDM

Ichigo never once makes shockwaves in TS let alone deflect a few arrows when we have seen exactly how he responds to a bunch of arrows coming at his face. Aside from headcanon that is completely unsupported by the manga in any fashion, are there any other arguments against the calc?

 

[AppleLord]

"One Hundred Million Blades"

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Or, swinging his sword one time can generate massive shockwaves; that happens all the time and is one of his most basic abilities. That was TataHakai's true refute. Also, fire 1200 arrows per second isn't the same as firing 1200 arrows in one blast but simply firing one arrow every 1/1200 of a second.

Interesting... You mean the same shockwave that would have annihilated the arrows? unless you'd like to argue their durability scale to Ichigo's AP of course.

Or is it the shockwave that doesn't exist? again like i've been saying the entire time it's just conjecture, and ad nauseum.

 

[Peter_"Quicksilver"_Maximoff]

Shockwaves, that's a new one.

 

[KazuiK]

The thing is, you are saying Ichigo redirected them all at once but you gotta prove it.

Unless Ichigo has new telekinesis powers or can grow 20 arms, he did do it one by one.

Ichigo has already done better deeds, like bouncing all the petals of Senbosakura and he did it without needing 20 arms, so ... he fisting the arrows is no big deal.

 

[Sekkonds.]

all at once,shockwaves..maybe he used a getsuga tencho who knows

This has become very funny

 

[TataHakai]

It doesn't even need shockwaves, his sword alone is almost 10x the size of the attacks PLUS the distance in between them and the swing would be nearly 20x their size

One swing alone would take out multiple of them unless he somehow phased his sword through the others whilst "taking them out one by one"

edit: Also the burden of proof is on the person making the claim, you can't say "Ichigo redirected them all one by one because you can't prove he didn't"

You are claiming he redirected them one by one when that's not shown, nor stated nor does it contextually make any sense. This is a fallacious way of debating.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

This, there's a shockwave in this clip.

 

[Peter_"Quicksilver"_Maximoff]

It doesn't even need shockwaves, his sword alone is almost 10x the size of the attacks PLUS the distance in between them and the swing would be nearly 20x their size

One swing alone would take out multiple of them unless he somehow phased his sword through the others whilst "taking them out one by one"

Forgetting the the fact he has TWO Swords, one big one and one small, like I believe we told you this before like 10 times.

 

[TataHakai]

Even his small sword is multiple times the size of the attacks plus their distance my dude, it still makes no sense either way. This headcanon is a pointless waste of time.

 

[USklaverei]

The scans are already in the blog, TataHakai is just explaining what actually happened; also, it is very condescending and childish to accuse any member and especially staff members of trolling just for stating our honest opinions and/or explaining our reasonings for why we disagree.

Tata is not explaining what really happened, he's just wearing headcanon without any evidence. In addition to having already been unmasked with evidence of the manga itself.

Anyway, we have several evidences that show that the same happened here and that he redirected each one. While the opposition so far only used headcanon.

 

[Peter_"Quicksilver"_Maximoff]

It doesn't even need shockwaves, his sword alone is almost 10x the size of the attacks PLUS the distance in between them and the swing would be nearly 20x their size

One swing alone would take out multiple of them unless he somehow phased his sword through the others whilst "taking them out one by one"

edit: Also the burden of proof is on the person making the claim, you can't say "Ichigo redirected them all one by one because you can't prove he didn't"

You are claiming he redirected them one by one when that's not shown, nor stated nor does it contextually make any sense. This is a fallacious way of debating.

And no it's not, we provided evidence as in manga scans of our claims, I've yet to see scans that supported anything you said.

 

[Peter_"Quicksilver"_Maximoff]

Even his small sword is multiple times the size of the attacks plus their distance my dude, it still makes no sense either way. This headcanon is a pointless waste of time.

Lmao what? The only headcanon is your baseless arguments.

 

[USklaverei]

Tata continue to use the same argument that has already been unmasked.

"A swing alone would take several of them"

Exactly, if he did this, the Heilig pfeil would not be REDIRECTED but DISSIPATED, you're ignoring facts of the manga itself to feed your headcanon.

You're claiming that he redirected them one by one when this is not shown.

It is not shown, but we have evidence that this has happened. You are simply giving an argument that his sword is very large, he could do it in one stroke and that never happened all through the manga, even in the Kirg feat, where his sword was much larger than the Heilig pfeil and he dealt with them individually.

 

[TataHakai]

No, you don't have evidence, you have context from a separate scene where Ichigo dissipated them instead of redirecting them

then you're claiming "they were dissipated because he knocked them all out in 1 hit and not because ichigo chose to dissipate them"

You're literally trying to carry context across scenes and warping the scenes to fit your headcanon when nothing suggests the things you're suggesting.

The fact that the assumption you're making is so huge means the evidence needs to be more than trying to essentially scale context across scenes.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

What? The scenes US is comparing are Ichigo deflecting the Femritter arrows and Ichigo deflecting Quilge's arrows. Both scenes he redirects them as seen from one being stated to occur and the other showing it occurring.

He never claimed they were dissipated at all. His point is that if he just smacked all of them in one hit they would dissipate as seen when he does that to Ishida's arrow instead of deflect it.

No scene needs to warped to fit any headcanon. Ichigo is stated to do something off screen by someone who saw it, US points us to another scene where Ichigo does the exact same thing but we see it on panel.

Where exactly are these "huge assumptions" coming from? At best there is one assumption and its not even an assumption since it is based on evidence shown in the manga for two almost identical feats.

 

[USklaverei]

"No, you have no evidence, you have the context of a separate scene where Ichigo dissipated them instead of redirecting them"

No, Ichigo did not dissipate them here, he redirected them and they exploded, that's obvious. If Ichigo had dissipated them, there would be no explosion, they would just dissipate.

Notice the difference:

- Here Ichigo dissipates the Heilig pfeil, which if undoes in the air.

- Here Ichigo redirects the Heilig pfeil, which then explodes behind him.

This proves that the Heilig pfeil was not dissipated, but rather sent to another place, which was the cause of the explosion.

Which fits perfectly in the made of the blog, where Ichigo redirects the Heilig pfeil, that explodes soon after.

 

[Peter_"Quicksilver"_Maximoff]

Unfollowing thread now, obviously there isn't going be a concensus here.

 

[Dangai_Ichigo]

This is getting stupid

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

No, you don't have evidence, you have context from a separate scene where Ichigo dissipated them instead of redirecting them

Actually we do have evidence, but I can't say the same thing for you. So once again provide evidence from the manga that supports your view. It's incredibly simple.

You're literally trying to carry context across scenes and warping the scenes to fit your headcanon when nothing suggests the things you're suggesting.

This doesn't even make sense. You're arguing elemnts from the manga has less worth then baseless conjecture. No one is warping anything here but you. We've used the manga and you're here stonewalling shit unable to provide any sort of evidence to support any of your claims.

The fact that the assumption you're making is so huge means the evidence needs to be more than trying to essentially scale context across scenes.

Our Assumption: Ichigo diverted each of the arrows to individual locations carefully just like he did a few days ago in the manga against Quilge.

Your assumption: Ichigo sent a 360 invisible shockwave that didn't damage the arrows.

Assumption 2: Ichigo spun his sword around his body somehow and sent all the arrows downwards, but instead of stopping seireitei from getting damaged further he decided to destroy a city block as well.

I honestly can't believe you have the audacity to say our arguements are headcanon.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

This is essentially what you're arguing, makes me wonder why this broken arrow didn't bust the palace or something. Females>>Uryu

 

[M11UTD]

The feat is really simple, US claims Ichigo did it 1 by 1 because it's the only way he can do it. He doesn't have telekinesis powers and using shockwaves would destroy the arrows, and his swords size is irrelevant because the attacks were coming from every direction (unless you think his swords can bend).

As stated above this's a case of personal conjecture vs contextual implication.

The opposite is just being stubborn now, starting different arguments and keeps repeating them and going in circles. So far no relevant scans been posted to counter the calc, and 3 neutral cg members said the calc is fine so this should be over.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Shockwaves don't always cause destruction, it is possible for them to just be push backs. Also, the number of Calc Group members shouldn't be the relevant cause as TataHakai was the only one being more elaborate and complex with the calc's details.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Shockwaves don't always cause destruction, it is possible for them to just be push backs. Also, the number of Calc Group members shouldn't be the relevant cause as TataHakai was the only one being more elaborate and complex with the calc's details.

Why is it so incredibly difficult to see there is no shockwave in the feat? why do you keep pushing this point???