Bleach Soul Potency

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

All that matters is whether it's a soul or not, now we know elements and literally everything have one. There is no requirements for it to only be people, just like mind haxing a planet doesn't exclude insects or whatever.

So we have two things here, Aura manipulating her individual cells turning herself into.

Her manipulating the air and sky turning into pretty much an ocean.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

It just feels like the negative reaction is a compouding of the absurd level of soul stuff this would result in, big numbers are always scary, and preconceptions. We are used to souls in people, at worst soul in things, but not this kind of thing.

But I do agree a Soul is a Soul and should not be treated as below baseline by being "smaller". The moment you do that you are already equalizing a bleach human soul to another soul in whatever fiction just because that's the standard there, applying the standard of another verse, or the majority of verses more like, to Bleach for an arbitrary reason.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Wait is this actually being considered or are people memeing around now?

I'm just starting to come around to Bleach. I don't wanna put this on the same level as light novel trash.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

I mean... yes? All these individual things are souls, they are called souls, and they are only "small" in relation to someone with a bigger soul.

Which is, not surprising as we've seen living things are an aggregation of the souls that form them. See literally Gillian Menos Grandes being born from hundreds of cannibal hollows fusing together.

 

[MrDrProfessorPatricio]

For me, I think it's safe to scale their soul potency to their AP

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I mean... yes? All these individual things are souls, they are called souls, and they are only "small" in relation to someone with a bigger soul.

Which is, not surprising as we've seen living things are an aggregation of the souls that form them. See literally Gillian Menos Grandes being born from hundreds of cannibal hollows fusing together.

Ah sweet. Good to know I won't come around to the verse. Only here for Yoruichi now.

Yes. I'm that petty that a severe increase in hax will cause me to hate a series. Heck, if Mario started passively EE'ing people, I'd become a Sonic fan.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

But, that's not something you can scale to AP.

And that would be completely disregarding people like Orihime or Chad, who don't have much soul stuff compared to the higher tiers but can survive their spiritual pressure, Orihime more than Chad if I remember right.

 

[YungManzi]

Someone else mentioned scaling soul hax to Mimihagi's AP feat of affecting 3 worlds. Which combined with that 7e27 * 33 billion , would give us 2.31e38. Then we add onto that 7e27 times whatever bleach's population is, times 3


^^And that will be the potency of soul manipulation the god tiers will have.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

I don't like the idea of using hard numbers almost, to be completely honest, but it would end up being a pretty high value.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Wait is this actually being considered or are people memeing around now?

I understand that you have a very vocal vendetta against certain abilities but I'd appreciate if u didn't fill the thread with that

As an admin I'd appreciate if you instead assist in resolving the thread quicker.

If you don't think this should be considered I assume you have some sort of evidence against it?

 

[MrDrProfessorPatricio]

But, that's not something you can scale to AP.
And that would be completely disregarding people like Orihime or Chad, who don't have much soul stuff compared to the higher tiers but can survive their spiritual pressure, Orihime more than Chad if I remember right.

Well that's the safest way we could get and have people agree with it. TBH I don't care bleach having those high numbers that was calculated just above the thread tho but it will cause many disagreements for sure

We could make an exception for Chad and Orihime

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

It's not that I don't think it should be considered. I'm entirely neutral. I don't know Bleach nearly well enough to give an opinion. My words are if it gets accepted, because as you said, I have a very vocal vendetta against hax. Insert Masada hate here.

 

[Paul_Frank]

@blank

If the souls of inanimate things, especially at that small of a scale are considered insignificant compared to a human soul in bleach, then yes, it would similarly be considered lesser for scaling the potency of their hax to other verses. You don't just disregard the fact that it is considered insignificant because other verses may not have the same scaling

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

That's not how it works Paul. When someone mind haxs everything on the planet do u somehow decide certain insect minds are equivalent to 1 human mind or certain animals? Because last I checked you don't unless it's dimensions apart.

 

[YungManzi]

That's not how it works Paul. When someone mind haxs everything on the planet do u somehow decide certain insect minds are equivalent to 1 human mind or certain animals? Because last I checked you don't unless it's dimensions apart.

Huh?

Doesn't this point work against your argument? We don't say mind haxing an atom is the same as mind haxing a human unless it has human level intelligence. So why would we say soul haxing an atom is equivalent to soul haxing a human?

We would need extra proof that the two souls are comparable.

 

[Paul_Frank]

That's different because in that case there aren't statements literally saying that insect minds<human minds

In addition, planetary mindhax on the wiki most of the time just includes humans anyway afaik

The souls in atoms and such are smaller, and considering the souls in objects literally have to be powered up by other souls to reach full potential, Chad can bring it past it's limits cause yes they are clearly differentiated and aren't considered equal even in the verse, so there is absolutely no reason to consider them equal here just to raise the numbers

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Oh no, that example actually doesn't work Sigurd.

A human mind is, in many senses, above the one of an insect. This is basic biology and a bunch of other stuff, and is something that relates to the real word.

Souls aren't. We don't know if they exist in reality, we don't have a weight or breadth or general potency ascribed to them.

A human mind is gonna be human across fiction unless the humans in question can do silly shit the humans in another couldn't ever do, or show that even baseline humans have resistances.

This doesn't apply and doesn't translate at all to souls? A human soul in bleach has no reason to be equivalent to a human soul in another verse when souls aren't constant, a much smaller soul is still called a soul and they are smaller by relativity that has no relation and doesn't get equalized with another verse. The moment even atoms have souls, a human soul can't be compared and said to be the baseline "just because".

Unless we wanna make any of the other dudes that say someone else is weaker and has less Reiyoku the baseline because someone else has a weaker soul relative to them.

Is dumb, massively dumb, I hope this is evident.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

@YungManzi I highly doubt mind haxing atoms is a thing but feel free to show me where that is a thing and how it's measured. Idk why you keep trying to equate humans to atoms. Humans aren't the scale used to measure.

@Paul

There is literally no statement that says this in Bleach besides inanimate objects have a small soul. But like I said this is literally irrelevant, large scale potency is measured in amount affected. Not based on some arbiritary requirement you've come up with.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

@LSir

I know humans are obviously superior but what I mean is let's say a planet has 1000 insects and 1000 humans and they all get mind haxed. It's potency is equivalent to 2,000 not some arbitrary thing where 2 insects = 1 human mind thus potency 1500. This is essentially what is being argued here.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Just to reiterate, the arbitrary decision here is deciding what soul is baseline when they are all called souls.

Atoms are small compared to inanimate objects which are small compared to humans which are small compared to humans with powers which are smaller than bigger and bigger lines of humans stronger than each other and also smaller than hollows or shinigami stronger than them.

Size here is nothing more than a statement of equivalence, so what decides the equivalence? Because the only thing that "decides" this is everyone thinking a human soul should be the baseline.

This is not a rule.

This is an usual standard because we don't go farther than humans or living beings having souls most of the time.

But again, no hard rule. If you have any reasoning why these smaller souls shouldn't constitute the baseline besides arbitrary decisions of what is a baseline soul in a verse that treats souls different than other verses, please mention it.

@ Sigurd. I know you are just giving an example and not saying is the exact same, but I am pretty sure we put things like insects which are way simpler than humans below them. The issue here is that the mind has a level of inherent completexity we do establish as baseline (I think), souls don't in anyway. Which is why deciding on any baseline except the smallest component ai an arbitrary decision.

 

[Paul_Frank]

Another thing that shows that human souls are above objects and such is the fact that even unpowered humans have Reiryoku which is spiritual energy. The baseline for Reiryoku being the minimal amount that spiritually unaware humans have. Objects don't have Reiryoku, like, at all from what I've been able to find. Which would mean that ontop of the smaller, weaker souls, they don't have as much spiritual energy as an average person either which is why people can't get reiatsu crushed by a fridge

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Are you aware that normals humans having Reiryoku means nothing? With the amount they may have they may as well have none at all, it's why they're not spiritually aware like Tatsuki or superhuman like Chad before he could even see hollows. 70%+ of the population throughout London's history was eaten by hollows in Bleach.

Souls in the rukongai also have Reiryoku but it's a worthless amount which is why they don't need to eat, sleep, or do anything at all except exist. Because they have so little that they don't need to recharge like a Shinigami.

Hogyoku is an object without reiryoku > most of the verse.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Is it actually ever said the souls of objects have no Reiyoku? Wut?

Or is there just no statement of them having, which matters little since if they have souls we can assume they have reiyoku, just so little that it is downright insignificant, much more so than normal humans. Which doesn't change the fact that they are souls.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

All souls in the series have reiryoku, all of them are made from reishi as well which, as Quincies prove, is energy. Fullbringers specifically amp the strength of a soul with their own reiryoku to create their Fullbrings. Strength of a soul is its reiryoku.

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

Reiryoku is Spiritual Energy/Power found inside of all Souls.

• Reiatsu is the physical and non-physical exertion of Reiryoku done outside the Soul.

All Souls are made of Reishi.

• Reishi is Spiritual Matter (Spiritual Atoms).

Fullbringers manipulate the Souls found in inanimate objects. They add the Reiryoku of the inanimate Soul to their own Reiryoku to boost themselves or the inanimate object.

• The Souls of inanimate objects are described as small, not weak.

• Fullbringers can even manipulate the Souls of atoms as Aura was mentioned to manipulate the Souls of Nitrogen itself.

Quincies manipulate Reishi itself.

• They manipulate the Spiritual Matter found in all things Spiritual.

On god, I don't think it'd be easy to find the level of Soul Manipulation for the verse for anyone except Mimihagi, Yhwach and the Soul King.

The Soul King straight up manipulates the Soul Cycle via manipulation of Life and Death while also having the abilities of Quincies and Fullbringers. Plus he literally made Reishi itself and the Worlds.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Finding an exact value is hard, but it does settle how massively the higher tiered people or the likes of Aizen would upscale from Tatsuki resisting Gonzui even without a defined number.

 

[M11UTD]

It was actually 33,000,000,000. Which is insane.

I've also heard other bleach fans say something like 23,000,000,000 for the top tiers.

Got any scans?

 

[AppleLord]

Bleach chapter 267 -Source

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

Aarronniero's 33,650 number is pretty small. But that is to be expected of a Gillian.

Vasto Lordes are in the millions.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Granted, as far as it was explained, it would make it seem Gillians need to eat other gillians. So part of that number is likely way higher when you account the individual hollows forming a single gillian.

 

[AppleLord]

A Gillian is in the hundreds of souls, Aarronniero is is the only Gillian in the thousands and an Espada because he eat the Hollow that absorbed Kaien and acquired his ability. - All explained in chapter 267 and chapter 284.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

A base Gillian is. If we account for the hundreds of souls that make a Gillian when it forms, we would also account for the many more it absorbs as it increases in power.

Aaroniero says hollows and his absorption abilities existed since he was a normal Hollow so we can't just say most of those he ate were Gillian, but with that amount and unless Aizen got to him just after he became a Gillain, is safe to say he nommed on a few.

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

I believe the novels state Menos Grande are thousands of Hollows.

Vasto Lorde are tens of thousands of Menos Grande per CFYOW.

Vasto Lorde would come out to millions of hollows, which is why Aarronniero's 33,650 Hollows seems so small. But that is to be expected since he was a Gillian and Gillians are in the thousands.

 

[Naeblis495]

Vasto Lorde are tens of thousands of Hollows per CFYOW.

Do you mean Adjuchas ?

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

I made a mistak, I meant to type menos grande there.

 

[Naeblis495]

oh right .

 

[The_Prince_of_Counters]

Bump

 

[Paul_Frank]

I misspoke. I didn't mean to say that object souls had no reiryoku, I meant to say that I couldn't find anything on them having reiryoku comparable to a human, like at all. This makes sense because there are clear differences in the sound of people on bleach, the amount of reiryoku they have directly correlating to the strength, resistances and complexity of that soul, for instance, there are clear differences in power and complexity between the soul of butterfly Aizen and like, Tatsuki. Objects having less reiryoku than a human puts their souls lower on the chain than a human with a basic soul, weaker, less complex and less resistant.

Another issue with atoms being included in the soul hax count for some reason, is that the soul is clearly shown to be separate from the physical body, which is why Gikon and the glove that remove souls from the body work. A person's body can be made of atoms that have souls, but haxing their soul doesn't require you to hax every atom as well. Seele Schneider doesn't weaken the bonds between atoms before anyone tries to say that, it weakens the bonds between reishi.

As for Aarronniero, he isn't literally 33.6k hollows stacked onto eachother, when he eats one he just gains their reiatsu, he is still 1 being with 1 soul afaik.

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

Yeah, but Aarronniero would qualify as a soul equivalent to 33.6k souls would he not? I believe this works on the wiki.

But I do agree with you that the souls of atoms and objects are weaker than a Hollow, Quincy, Human or Shinigami soul. Their Reiryoku shows how their soul is stronger at baseline would be a regular Human who has a small amount while atoms and the like have tiny small souls that aren't equivalent.

However, the souls of those still have to be accounted for the likes of Yhwach, Mimihagi and the Soul King in the end.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

When you say human, are you referring to a Bleach human or just a regular one from some other setting that does not have Bleach mechanics? Because if you are talking about the first one, I agree. If its the second one though, they would be equivalent as that's just how the situation works. Atom souls have no feats for resistance and such but at the end of the day, they are still souls and thus would require the baseline amount of soul manip to be manipulated. An average joe soul with no resistance feats from another verse is only the one soul as well. They cannot and should not be treated as superior unless given a valid reason that isn't a statement only applicable to characters from Bleach.

Gikon and the glove work because all the smaller souls are combined to form a greater soul. This is the same as Gillian who are explicitly the fusion of hundreds of souls minimum to form a greater soul. To run with the soul removal example, removing them does require to manipulate all the smaller souls as it's just like moving anything. If I judo throw someone, am I not manipulating their atoms? Sure it isn't any precise manipulation but I must still exert the energy required to overcome the combined mass of the atoms as they are all connected to each other. Similarly, the individual souls that exist in atoms and make up everything are connected to each other and thus need to be manipulated as well if someone tries soul removal. I misspoke, but reishi are atoms (just not made of kishi) so I am technically still correct