It seems there are people against and people for it.
I don't think a conclusion was reached
Nothing I wrote implied that I suggested you claimed anything I never once acknowledged your interpretation so it’s impossible that I attempted misconstrue your interpretation “ once again”….. you completely lost me there nor am I saying barragon and aizen are equal me saying the comparison is questionable doesn’t suggest that
Actually the context behind his past is ultimately saying it’s more than the devouring of hollows, “deeper” was used suggesting the evolution from adjuhas to vasto is inherent or destined
Dangai ichigo is just ichigo training for several months it’s literally nothing special vs Fb who was training and also amped by all of the captains
What you wrote here literally does not make sense, so I will ignore it, since it is neither related to eating hollow, nor is it related to becoming more powerful by doing it. It's just something you decided to write there at random.
What you wrote here denotes poor knowledge of Bleach and is totally unrelated to what I said. In Grimmjow's past we find that he can continue to grow in power, regardless of his transformation from Adjuchas to Vasto Lorde. Because, you know, how to say... there are Adjuchas more powerful than the Vasto Lorde. Ask Prime Ikomikidomoe.
Poor knowledge of Bleach once again. Dangai Ichigo is not just training for 3 months, I invite you to re-read Bleach if that's what you understand. Dangai Ichigo is Ichigo accepting the blade of the two sides of Zangetsu to gain a power out of the ordinary. By accepting his zanpakuto, it merged with Ichigo himself (his hand). It took three months because Ichigo only realized after three months that instead of fighting Tensa Zangetsu, he should simply have accepted it.
This is the culmination of Bleach's lack of knowledge and I invite you once again to re-read the chapters of the final battle between Ichigo and Aizen. Aizen stated expressly, specifically and bluntly, that the "inferior beings" were able to perceive his reiatsu only because he reduced it to such a point that they could perceive it.
This is what I am asking in simple terms.
Arc sums up the opposing arguments best in this part of his post above. He addressed other things in his post but the OP dropped them from his summary so I snipped those parts out.
Yeah let me put a stop to this dog shit fb scaling. It doesnt work. "Dangai ichigo is just ichigo training for several months it’s literally nothing special vs Fb who was training and also amped by all of the captains" if you were to use this scaling. Keep in mind it would go like this fb ichigo~tsukishina~LAA byakuya<Post royal guard byakuya~v2 gerard~cfyow byakuya~tokinada<<<ryujin jakka yamamoto. Whos weaker than fourth fusion aizen who transcends all shinigami and hollow in power. Which would be a inherent contradiction. The scale Doesnt work.
My intention is not to derail this thread. I didn’t present an actual argument regarding FB> Dangai, nor do I desire to do so on this thread. That’s not the entirety of my argument, or the concept itself please keep that mind.
What you're trying to say here is simply wrong for two reasons: 1. "He tried to scale the skies to attempt to consume the Reio, but as result of the battle with Soul Reapers such as Shigekuni Yamamoto, who was still a youthful hero at the time, he was defeated at the hands of the Manako Osho and Oh-Etsu Nimaiya". (Sorry if I don't attach, right now I am quicker to copy and paste). Here they're talking about a Prime Ikomikidomoe, who's stronger by far than the Iko who is fighting right now with Grimmjow and companions, since this Iko doesn't even own his real name and is still sealed in a zanpakuto, due to the defeat "at the hands of Oh-Etsu and Ichibei"; 2. The confrontation is obviously taking place between the current Ikomikidomoe (far weaker than Prime) and Barragan, since Grimmjow knows Barragan's reiatsu and could not have the slightest idea of Prime Ikomikidomoe's level of reiatsu, but only of the current Iko, the one in front of him.
So what, if anything, should we do here then?
I have avoided tagging you because I have read in messages from others that you are very busy at the moment and I am sorry to bother you. I would like you to read the last comment I wrote because I believe that the whole point on which your refusal revolves (and practically everyone else who shares your thoughts), that is the incompatibility between Tsukishima and the scaling chain, is actually a point that does not exist. And removed that point from which the thought of Barragan-Hax more than Barragan-SP is created, I see no other reason from your part to reject the thread. Not, at least, in what you wrote in which you seem to agree in different parts.
Grimmjow doesn't scale to vollstandig askin. He off guarded him. Grimmjow was even stated to still be weaker than base aizen. V2 gerard~<CfyowByakuya~tokinada<<<ryujin jakka yama~base aizen~kisuke~vollstandig askin
Wrong for multiple reasons: Base Byakuya attacked Yammy with Sokatsui and failed to damage him in the least (Yammy durability> Base Byakuya Sokatsui AP); Byakuya has never attacked Yammy with the Shikai; Byakuya in Bankai injured Yammy; Byakuya wounded As Nodt in Shikai, regardless of whether he was unable to defeat him without using Bankai, he wounded his hand in multiple places. This automatically places Yammy durability > As Nodt durability because you have no evidence to establish that Byakuya in Shikai would have been able to damage Yammy. To establish As Nodt AP during the first invasion, please tell me when he landed a single hit on Byakuya without using the stolen Bankai. So, evidences on hand, right now Yammy > As Nodt AP/Durability during the first invasion.
Writing this is like trying to make fun of me.
This is simply wrong because the "said statement" did not prove anything correct.
Ayon Quilge Opie himself who:
This is rather nonsense. It would be more correct to write: Shikai Rose who could fight Resurrection Starrk and could fight NaNaNa, same Rose who couldn't kill both of them.
For someone who likes to act like they know Bleach, you don’t seem to realise that Yammy’s dura > his AP. As having less dura than Yammy doesn’t stop him from being comparable in AP.
Byakuya returned from HM more injured than when we last saw him which means he either got damaged by Yammy or he got damaged by Kenpachi, either way he can take hits from Yammy’s AP. As Nodt is comparable to Byakuya and Byakuya blatantly says that As isn’t someone he can beat without using Bankai.
Nice strawman. I didn’t say half of that bullshit. Askin isn’t > True Shikai at all. That was a majorly held back Ichigo who got slightly pressured by 8 Sternritter and was negged by hax. Grimm literally shanked Vollstandig Askin who is > non SS Ritters.
So we just don’t accept Byakuya as a valid source of information? Aight. So we dismiss Grimm and Iki’s statements too then. Let’s just close the thread since you disagree with your own reasoning and nobody else agrees with it.
And? Why is FB Bankai Ichigo limited by anything here? This is the same Ichigo who manhandled a Ritter no diff, prompted the Wandenreich to invade Seireitei because Ichigo was busy for 3 minutes, manage to do something to Yhwach, and even after expelling a load of his power in the Garganta, still had Byakuya believing Ichigo could stop a bunch of Quincy that are running around with Bankai (including Kageyoshi) and murdered Yama.
It’s like you missed the part where Ichigo > Kisuke. Kisuke literally said that he can’t just go into a fight like theirs.
That Kisuke wasn’t worried and Quilge was temporarily downed by Kisuke but was still able to fight. Grimm one shot him while Kisuke was worrying about Quilge.
“Better feats”
His Shikai doesn’t amp his AP so it’s the same thing as his base. Point is that Nanana is comparable to Rez Starrk which means Grimm who is stronger than him is stronger than Barragan.
How on Earth can Rez Grimm not scale to Askin when he is the one responsible for killing him? Jumping him from behind is irrelevant when Askin was on guard for Kisuke meaning his stats wouldn’t have been lowered in anyway. Also, Askin doesn’t scale Aizen in physicals, no clue where you got that cap from.
Wow. Strange statement, since in this wiki I see Yammy AP at Multi-Continental and higher with CO and GRC while his Durability caps at Large Country+. Which is even more strange when you think about the fact that in the databooks, seen on which it seems legitimate to trust, Yammy's AP stated the highest, while his Hierro is second only to that of Nnoitra.
Still fossilized on this one. It doesn't matter if Byakuya says "He's not someone I can beat without using the Bankai", since he just injured him using just the Shikai. Can't beat him, but ehy, think about it, beat =/= hurt even considerably, am I right?
You're literally placing Askin > Stern and the rest of that terrible scaling chain, based on feats from a hax that casually knocked Ichigo to the ground TS Ichigo (same that happened to Grimmjow). If you consider Grimmjow scale on Askin (who comes from low ranks of the Sterns, who knows why?) because of what Askin has shown through the TYBW, then that antics above is exactly what you are saying.
The bolded is just another ridiculous comeback. From when saying Byakuya needs Bankai to defeat an enemy is more valid for scaling than Byakuya himself injury that same enemy using just Shikai?
I don't know if you realize how senseless this is. The Quilge Opie that Kisuke in Base blasted through is the same Quilge Opie who "worried" Kisuke, no power ups, nothing at all. I don't see how this could affect Grimmjow's scaling, since Quilge was only taking Ls the whole time, not even showing up that noteworthy. Both have gone through Quilge's durability, and that's what matters. And if a large wound wasn't fatal, but cutting in half was, it's irrelevant since both AP > Quilge Durability and let's face it, it doesn't take long to be ~ Base Kisuke.
Better feats, since taking Ls from anyone, two of which in their very base forms, is definitely < beating Capitans all over the Seireitei. Or do we want to assume that Base Kisuke > Every Captain who have been clapped? Many of those Sterns are truly low ranks and have done a lot more than Quilge did.
The real point is that Rose was defeated by both of them, zero difficulty against Starrk, unknown difficulty against NaNaNa, since it was an offscreen fight. Which makes it difficult to understand the dynamics of a fight that you are taking on and, given the nature of NaNaNa's Schrift, he could have defeated Rose even though he was in a lower tier than Rose and consequently weaker than Starrk, Barragan and CFYOW Grimmjow. Or now the "hax-based fighters" do not make you more comfortable and therefore not used?
Right, go get the scan of Yammy using those on Byakuya or Kenny. You should learn to not take statements hyper literally and ignore the context of them. Who knew you have state things that are common sense?
None of this matters. Why do you just keep saying things that have nothing to do with the CRT?
And SS Ichigo can hurt Byakuya but he still lost. Harming someone doesn’t equate to being able to beat them.
What do you mean I am placing Askin. That’s his scaling. The SS are all stronger than every other Sternritter besides Gremmy. It takes them being amped by Auswhalen to even put this in contention.
Yep. You have no clue how fighting works at all. By your logic, if I bruise Mirko Crocop, I can now beat him.
I am using the same logic as you tho? You want to dismiss Byakuya’s statement that contradicts your scaling so I am dismissing the statements you use that “contradict” mine. (They don’t actually contradict my scaling, you just think they do)
And I already explained that any increase in power Harribel gets can easily explained by Zenkai.
Except that there aren’t contradictions? Not in my scaling anyway.
Kisuke also shot through base Aizen. You also gonna tell me that Aizen isn’t a threat to Kisuke or would make him worry in a straight fight?
Taking Ls to who? Ichigo who has no scaling to anyone besides Quilge whose only feats involve Kisuke not wanting to fight him, getting harmed by Kisuke, harming Kisuke, dying to Grimmjow (whose only other feat is killing an SS), and surviving Ayon (who took an L to Yama …. that’s it). Nothing Quilge has done is an antifeat whereas everyone in SS thought the fight was as good as won when they heard Ichigo was coming.
Except that Starrk didn’t defeat Rose. Love and Rose were caught in a bunch of the wolves’ explosions and came out of it with a few burns still ready to fight before Shunsui jumped Starrk and they decided to sit out the fight. Or did you forget they were basically fine when Aizen decided to solo the Visoreds and Gotei in FKT.
And Underbelly’s effectiveness is based on the length of time he analyses reiatsu and, more importantly, paralyses them. Rose never got paralysed and was completely unharmed by the end of the fight which means Nanana matched him in a fight and this scales to Rez Starrk.
No clue what you are even trying to imply here. All of the hax based fighters brought up in this thread either only used their hax or don’t use them. Askin spammed Deathdealing, Nanana never used Underbelly, and Barragan spams Respira as if he is Ichigo using GT.
Seriously? All of these are arguments that YOU brought up here, only to prove yourself right with unrelated and rather senseless arguments.
And SS Ichigo, since he can easily harm Byakuya, scales relative to him. Lost doesn't equate to not being able to scale relative to them.
Tell me how beating someone can be the only way to be relative with someone. Are you saying that since he hurt him and not beat him then it is not relative to him? Strange, because according to basic scaling, this shows that Shikai Byakuya already has enough AP to overcome As Nodt's Durability.
No. Literally no. Besides the fact that no Halibel's power boost was ever mentioned during three volumes of novels (which I invite you to re-read), you are using an easy loophole to try once again to prove yourself right. When Urahara explains to Ichigo about "Zenkai", Urahara explains how a Konpaku in mortal danger increases her spiritual power. Yes, very good. This explains how Ichigo switched to Konpaku with almost zero spiritual energy that he can hardly breathe in Konpaku with an ounce of spiritual power. DO NOT explain how someone goes from High 6-B to High 6-A.
I don't see what it has to do with everything we are talking about in thisbl thread, but if you are asking my opinion about this off topic: Kyoka Suigetsu aside, Base Isshin has made Base Aizen reach his limit pretty casually, I don't see why Urahara couldn't do it.
The bolded never happened. "Worry" =/= harm.
Assumption. Only among those shown.
Taking away that: he was completely dominated, he used mask to fight/defend himself from wolves (pretty nice boost, don't you think? And think that Rose has not even harmed him in the slightest. Crazy), Starrk was about to give him the thanks. Instead what happened against NaNaNa?
Point 1 doesn't explain anything since Rose is not Aizen, paralyses AND KNOCK THEM OUT is easy win through hax (or do you want to try to say that to cut the throat of an unconscious/incapacitated man it is necessary to have the AP necessary to bypass his Durability?).
Need to reread Bleach. You're still missing.
to be fair, he's right about that because the fact byakuya injured as nodt in shikai, means his ap is alredy enough to surpass base as nodt durability
Big issue with this is that even if I give you that point regarding Tsukishima's scaling to LAA Byakuya, Tsukishima still scales to the likes of the CFYOW Femritters (Zombie Bambi, Gigi, Liltotto, Candice) and they scale relative to Quilge. Quilge being someone who with Vollstandig can no sell a Getsuga Tenshou from Fullbring Shikai Ichigo, Fullbring Shikai Ichigo scaling far above prior versions of himself that scale far above all the Arrancar arc Espada. Or the TYBW Femritters scaling to an injured post-Gremmy fight Kenpachi, where post-Unohana base Kenpachi scales far above SAFWY Kenpachi who defeated Cien (Cien being stronger than Res Yammy and having similar reiatsu to Full Hollow Ichigo). Or Grimmjow making Kisuke sweat, Kisuke being the same person Aizen praised as an equal to himself pre-evolution (doesn't mean TYBW Grimmjow scales to TYBW Kisuke, but it means he's certainly in the same ballpark of power if he worries Urahara). Even CFYOW Kenpachi praised Res Grimmjow for his power, that same Kenpachi scaling above all the current Gotei 13.
Post-Gremmy fight injured base Kenpachi << TYBW base Femritters >> CFYOW Femritters (only base, because Vollstandig doesn't exist anymore for them).
Write about Zombie Bambi => Quilge based on Menoly's statement not completely accurate, in my opinion. Specifically, her Zombie version in CFYOW and her TYBW version differ greatly in power, to the point she was about to be beaten by CFYOW Rudbornn, if Liltotto had not intervened. Bambi's much weaker statement comes from Liltotto, a much more reliable source who compare her to a mid power arrancar.
yea, that's also true considering that tybw zombie bambietta got slapped by base charlotte, who in cfyow admitted to be weaker than both nelliel and halibel who seems to not have grown between arrancar arc and cfyow
Exactly. And this, by the way, would lead to another set of contradictions, because then we would have:
this is just what I thought too
That's the point, I haven't said otherwise. However, it's expressly specified that upon his death, the effects of his Fullbring end and if they end, Byakuya's 17 months of training (which are "written" in Byakuya's past) literally disappear for Tsukishima, regardless of which scaling he previously got.
It's odd that Grimmjow himself, supported by Ikomikidomoe statement, claims in multiple points that he's, in one way or another, weaker than Baraggan, never mentioning his hax but instead mentioning his spiritual power.
Never said that Zombie Bambietta has become weaker for becoming a zombie, I invite you to reread because you have misunderstood.
This, unfortunately, in no way proves that Halibel had a power boost, since, having been an off-screen fight, quite simply Halibel may have been stomped with negative difficulty by Yhwach (a Yhwach much weaker than the Yhwach we will see in later TYBW). And also, you too, like others guys before you, are speculating/assuming she has become stronger, basically relying on nothing. This is because, in fact, there isn't a singole evidence that she has become stronger than she was in the past.
I only see how this could lead to extremely contradictory scaling chains, while Halibel ~ Nelliel ~ Grimmjow < Barrgan < Starrk < Yammy, can be explained in many ways as I already did above.
The narrative gets weird, but not so much, if you think back to the fact that that confrontation took place as a 1 vs Quincies, Arrancars, Mayuri's Corpe Unit. And, however he was managing to resist. Then one thing happens to keep in mind and don't forget in that fight: NaNaNa used Underbelly on him. And here I can read:
I would agree with you on this point, if only he had referred to their hax at least once.
