Bleach:Espada stats from CFYOW Novel

[zazabgfd]

Harribel,Nelliel,Grimmjow all have this:High 6-A, higher with Resurreccion, even Higher with certain techniques ,in their CFYOW forms.
While Starrk and Barragan have this: High 6-B with Cero Oscuras, higher with Gran Rey Cero.

But novel made it pretty clear that Barragan,Starrk and Yammy still stronger.I assume Viz translation is reliable when novels is discussing.But i have Raw on all of those statements .

Ikomikidomoe said that Grimmjow still inferior to Barragan even before Aizen made him stronger.And that form of Ikomikidomoe has Reiatsu equal or slightly higher than Barragan during his time as Espada.Here novel stated that Grimmjow would lose fight with Barragan.Harribel,Nelliel,Grimmjow in their Resurreccions with Water shield from Harribel still were damaged by "Cero" from Ikomikidomoe,who is in that form at best is between Barragan and Starrk in term of Reiatsu as was stated in novel itself.

p.s this is my second post on this forum,so if i am doind something ,please tell me)

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

The Barragan that Ikomikidomoe knew was thousands of years younger. There’s nothing to say a young prime Barragan = Espada Barragan. So what you would deduce is that Prime Barragan > Espada Barragan. Which makes sense considering we know Barragan wasn’t actively training cuz he was so bored that he made his Hollow armies fight each other. Furthermore, we see with Yoruichi if you don’t train you get rusty. So, no Ikomikidomoe wasn’t referring to Espada Barragan here, that would create contradictory scaling chains as Grimmjow, Nel, and Halibel all hav e scaling to Quincy who scale above people like Espada Barragan.

 

[zazabgfd]

Thank you for your answer.

Several things:

1)Barragan himself stated in manga that he become stronger with Aizens help

2)Statment about Reiastu referring to Barragan as "former" Ruler of HM.So why we use "young prime Barragan" and not "former Ruler Barragan"?.Also novel statment about Grimjow losing to Barragan exist outside of Ikomikidomoe knowledge of young prime Barragan,so shouldn't we use "present" Barragan

p.s for me ,Narita tried to retroactively made 2-0 Espada more powerfull in both of his novels.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

1)Barragan himself stated in manga that he become stronger with Aizens help

Stronger than he was as an old man =/= stronger than his prime

2)Statment about Reiastu referring to Barragan as "former" Ruler of HM.So why we use "young prime Barragan" and not "former Ruler Barragan"?

Barragan ruled HM in the past too. And also we would use the Barragan Iko knows, aka young prime Barragan.

3)When novel stated characters who have Reiastu om par or exeeds that of Tokinada ,Ikomikidomoe is not listed

Iirc Iko was fused with Hikone atm, Iko was a Zanpakuto, they didn’t list any Zanpakuto. Kenpachi’s Zanpakuto is stronger than Toki but they didn’t list Kenpachi’s Zanpakuto.

 

[zazabgfd]

Stronger than he was as an old man =/= stronger than his prime

But that is an assumption right?

Barragan ruled HM in the past too.

but he wasnt former ruler at that point.

And also we would use the Barragan Iko knows, aka young prime Barragan.

1)why?

2)How should we know that he is stronger than Espada Barragan?Espada Barragan ability was praised by Cien to being more dangerous than 3 of his own Gran Rey Ceros

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

But that is an assumption right?

No because Iko only knows about young Barragan. So his statement can only refer to young Barragan.

but he wasnt former ruler at that point.

Barragan ruled HM back then.

1)why?

You know Iko was sealed for thousands of years? He wouldn’t know of anything that transpired while sealed.

2)How should we know that he is stronger than Espada Barragan?Espada Barragan ability was praised by Cien to being more dangerous than 3 of his own Gran Rey Ceros

Yeah that’s a hax statement, not an AP statement. And while hax and AP are correlated in Bleach they are not 1 to 1. So this doesn’t refute what I’ve said.

 

[zazabgfd]

No because Iko only knows about young Barragan. So his statement can only refer to young Barragan.

i am not arque with that.

But statements were made not only by Iko but also by Narita/Author/Narrator himself.And Narrator made many statments that charatcers are nor aware of.

You know Iko was sealed for thousands of years? He wouldn’t know of anything that transpired while sealed.

Yes.But thats only goes for 1 statment from Iko.Not All of them

Yeah that’s a hax statement, not an AP statement. And while hax and AP are correlated in Bleach they are not 1 to 1. So this doesn’t refute what I’ve said.

AP statemen -can you please tell me what this is?

And Starrks wolves for example fell under hax statement or AP statement?

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

i am not arque with that.

But statements were made not only by Iko but also by Narita/Author/Narrator himself.And Narrator made many statments that charatcers are nor aware of.

Yes but they’re contextualizing Iko’s statement, so again it’d only refer to a prime Barragan.

Yes.But thats only goes for 1 statment from Iko.Not All of them

Refer to my above response.

AP statemen -can you please tell me what this is?

And Starrks wolves for example fell under hax statement or AP statement?

AP stands for Attack Potency. You can read the wiki page on AP to learn more.

 

[Deceived3596]

Following

 

[zazabgfd]

Yes but they’re contextualizing Iko’s statement, so again it’d only refer to a prime Barragan

but who said that prime Barragan is stronger that amp Old Barragan?
and who said that Hollows could become rusty?

AP stands for Attack Potency. You can read the wiki page on AP to learn more.

Thank you again

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

but who said that prime Barragan is stronger that amp Old Barragan?

Iko, the scaling quite literally dictates so.

and who said that Hollows could become rusty?

Common sense says if you don’t train you get rusty, and Yoruichi echoes this statement.

 

[Deceived3596]

and who said that Hollows could become rusty?

What's the evidence for Hollows being unable to become rusty?

You're making that claim, you gotta prove that since the natural/common sense claim is that they can get rusty.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Lemme outline clearly what I mean by your proposal creates contradictory scaling.

Espada Barragan < Res Yammy ~< AA Byakuya < LAA Byakuya ~ LAA Tsukishima =< CFYOW Tsukishima ~ CFYOW base Grimmjow

So if you think Iko somehow knows of Espada Barragan, you’d have circular scaling where Espada Barragan > Espada Barragan. You can see how that doesn’t work. However, Iko only knows about young prime Barragan, so the logical deduction is that prime Barragan is stronger than Espada Barragan. Which makes sense cuz prime Barragan used to fight with Yamamoto, and no one is going to contest that base Yamamoto folds Espada Barragan.

 

[Deceived3596]

no one is going to contest that base Yamamoto folds Espada Barragan

You know what Espada that base Yama doesn't fold....

His name starts with a N

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Her name starts with a N

Nelliel?

 

[Deceived3596]

Nelliel?

His name starts with a N

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Her name starts with a N

 

[Deceived3596]

Spoiler

 

[zazabgfd]

What's the evidence for Hollows being unable to become rusty?

You're making that claim, you gotta prove that since the natural/common sense claim is that they can get rusty.

well i dont make any claims.I was asking .But if you want one or two:

1)Hollows usually isnt training unlike shinigami.So what is the difference beetwen young Barragan who dont train and old Barragan who dont train?

1.5)Also who said that Barragan wasnt keep himself at peal from to defend his status?

2)Why Barragan who want to kill Aizen would be rusty?He is stupid or what?

Common sense says if you don’t train you get rusty, and Yoruichi echoes this statement.

and we know for sure that prime Barragan train and Espada Barragan wasnt?

Espada Barragan < Res Yammy ~< AA Byakuya < LAA Byakuya ~ LAA Tsukishima =< CFYOW Tsukishima ~ CFYOW base Grimmjow

1)But Safyw put Starrk and Barragan in domain of power that is threat to Cien along side with Fullpower Yammy.And one of Databook statment goes like:his proofe of 0 Espada is that he almost killed Byakuya and Zaraki

2)Byakuya cant pierce Res Yammy properly with his Bankai,how he is stronger?

3)How LAA Tsukishima is as Strong as Byakuya if he was defeated with mid-diff?Also Grimmjow counterd Bool of the End by being and animal

Which makes sense cuz prime Barragan used to fight with Yamamoto, and no one is going to contest that base Yamamoto folds Espada Barragan.

i dont think that was ever stated

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

and we know for sure that prime Barragan train and Espada Barragan wasnt?

We do know Espada era Barragan let himself go, he specifically goes on a monologue about how he is bored and isn’t doing anything.

1)But Safyw put Starrk and Barragan in domain of power that is threat to Cien along side with Fullpower Yammy.And one of Databook statment goes like:his proofe of 0 Espada is that he almost killed Byakuya and Zaraki

Full power Cien scales above both of them, I don’t know where you got that from. Furthermore we see Byakuya damage Res Yammy on panel.

2)Byakuya cant pierce Res Yammy properly with his Bankai,how he is stronger?

He directly does harm Yammy, so he scales.

3)How LAA Tsukishima is as Strong as Byakuya if he was defeated with mid-diff?Also Grimmjow counterd Bool of the End by being and animal

Reread that fight, because Tsukishima entirely shut down Byakuya’s Bankai. Tsukishima scales.

i dont think that was ever stated

I’m pretty sure it was, but either way Barragan could fight Iko, and Iko defeated base Yama in the past.

 

[Theendzero13]

1)But Safyw put Starrk and Barragan in domain of power that is threat to Cien along side with Fullpower Yammy

Actually yammy is never stated a treat to cien , hell base cien at 30% is stated stronger than yammy , later on cien was afraid of respira and " starrk attacks " , the first one is pure hax and the second one is very vague and probrably just refers to attacks who scale above starrk normal AP and boy betwenn the wolves, metraletta , gran rey cero and cero obscuras he has a lot of those

 

[Deceived3596]

well i dont make any claims.I was asking .But if you want one or two:

You literally did in your post bruh.

but who said that prime Barragan is stronger that amp Old Barragan?
and who said that Hollows could become rusty?

1)Hollows usually isnt training unlike shinigami.So what is the difference beetwen young Barragan who dont train and old Barragan who dont train?

Young Baraggan was in considerably more fights on a regular basis compared to Old Baraggan.

Don't believe i need to tell you why constantly fighting makes you better fighter/stronger compared to not fighting at all.

1.5)Also who said that Barragan wasnt keep himself at peal from to defend his status?

No Evidence.

2)Why Barragan who want to kill Aizen would be rusty?He is stupid or what?

Because he's quite literally one of the most arrogant characters in the series (dudes Res is literally called "Arrogante" which mean arrogant in Spanish)

He believed that his aspect of death was the strongest and that nothing could stand against it, it makes complete sense why he wouldn't have train/keeped his "peak" given this blatant character flaw.

 

[zazabgfd]

Full power Cien scales above both of them, I don’t know where you got that from.

Can we put other things on a hold for a little while?i think this part is more important at the moment

Roca absorbed 3 Gran Rey Cero from Cien and Fired them Back.Cien used all his tentacles to defend himself.

Several of his tentacles were torn off.And then he stated that Roca could do more damage to him reproducing Starrks wolves or Respira.As i understand Respira goes for hax ,but wolves are just explosions so they should go for AP right?

Translation of some parts from those pages.

両手と口から三点同時の 『王虚の閃光』を撃ち出した。

From both hands and mouth, he/Cien shot three rounds at the same time, "The Flash of the King's Hollow/Gran Rey Cero”

彼女は大きく口を開く。一形さるロカが何をするつもりなのか理解すると同時に、シエンは残された触手で自らの身体を覆い隠し、完全な防御態勢に移行した。そして、次の瞬間||彼の放った技はロカの口へと吸いこまれ、一瞬の間を置いて、そのままこちらに吐き返された。

She/Roka opens her mouth wide. As soon as Cien understood what Roca was going to do, he covered his body with tentacles and moved into full defense mode. Then, the next moment,His technique was sucked into Roca's mouth, and after a moment, it was spit back.

あか自らの王虚の光を喰らったシエンの身体は、消滅こそしなかったものの、触手の何本かが千切れ飛び、ロカよりも多くの血を大地に染みこませていた。

Although Cien's body, which had eaten by his own Gran Rey Ceros, did not disappear, some of the tentacles were torn apart.

息を僅かに荒らげながら、シエンは不敵に言い放つ。「危なかったよ。もしも倍返しされていたら、腕の一つぐらいは千切られてるかrおロいたかもしれない。だが、君は今の王虚の閃光に

With a slight breathlessness, Cien speaks. "It was dangerous. If it had been doubled, maybe one of my arms had been torn off as well.

「君が準備している攻撃は、今の 『王虚の閃光』よりも上という事か……」焦燥に満ちた表情で、ロカを強く睨みつける。「一体何をその 『糸』で再現するつもりだ……！スタークの群狼か？バラガンの呪いか？それとも、最大解放状態のヤミーの巨体でもその 『糸』で再現するつもりか？」。「それを超える力など、この虚圏に存在したとすれば藍染様か今の僕だけだ！

Is the attack you are preparing now is even more powerful than the last Gran Rey Ceros.With a frustrated expression, Cien glares at Roca. "What on earth are you going to reproduce with your ability ! Stark's Wolfs? Is it the curse/respira of Barragan? Or you going to reproduce the maximal released of Yammy giant body ?". "If there was any power beyond that in Hueco Mundo, it would be Aizen-sama or my current power!

 

[Theendzero13]

Can we put other things on a hold for a little while?i think this part is more important at the moment

Roca absorbed 3 Gran Rey Cero from Cien and Fired them Back.Cien used all his tentacles to defend himself.

Several of his tentacles were torn off.And then he stated that Roca could do more damage to him reproducing Starrks wolves or Respira.As i understand Respira goes for hax ,but wolves are just explosions so they should go for AP right?

Yes , but the wolves are blatantly stated to be above starkk regular attacks/ceros ,it is even implied that they are above gran rey cero who is over 10 times stronger than an regular cero

 

[zazabgfd]

Actually yammy is never stated a treat to cien , hell base cien at 30% is stated stronger than yammy , later on cien was afraid of respira and " starrk attacks " , the first one is pure hax and the second one is very vague and probrably just refers to attacks who scale above starrk normal AP and boy betwenn the wolves, metraletta , gran rey cero and cero obscuras he has a lot of those

i send pages in earlier message.This is from there.And Yammy listed with Stark's Wolfs and curse of Barragan

「君が準備している攻撃は、今の 『王虚の閃光』よりも上という事か……」焦燥に満ちた表情で、ロカを強く睨みつける。「一体何をその 『糸』で再現するつもりだ……！スタークの群狼か？バラガンの呪いか？それとも、最大解放状態のヤミーの巨体でもその 『糸』で再現するつもりか？」。「それを超える力など、この虚圏に存在したとすれば藍染様か今の僕だけだ！

Is the attack you are preparing now is even more powerful than the last Gran Rey Ceros.With a frustrated expression, Cien glares at Roca. "What on earth are you going to reproduce with your ability ! Stark's Wolfs? Is it the curse of Barragan? Or you going to reproduce the maximal released Yammy giant ?". "If there was any power beyond that in Hueco Mundo, it would be Aizen-sama or my current power!

 

[zazabgfd]

Yes , but the wolves are blatantly stated to be above starkk regular attacks/ceros ,it is even implied that they are above gran rey cero who is over 10 times stronger than an regular cero

agreed.I am here partially because Starrk profile seems to ignore this and that made Starrk weaker

 

[Theendzero13]

i send pages in earlier message.This is from there.And Yammy listed with Stark's Wolfs and curse of Barragan

「君が準備している攻撃は、今の 『王虚の閃光』よりも上という事か……」焦燥に満ちた表情で、ロカを強く睨みつける。「一体何をその 『糸』で再現するつもりだ……！スタークの群狼か？バラガンの呪いか？それとも、最大解放状態のヤミーの巨体でもその 『糸』で再現するつもりか？」。「それを超える力など、この虚圏に存在したとすれば藍染様か今の僕だけだ！

Is the attack you are preparing now is even more powerful than the last Gran Rey Ceros.With a frustrated expression, Cien glares at Roca. "What on earth are you going to reproduce with your ability ! Stark's Wolfs? Is it the curse of Barragan? Or you going to reproduce the maximal released Yammy giant ?". "If there was any power beyond that in Hueco Mundo, it would be Aizen-sama or my current power!

So , don't cien blatantly says here that he is stronger than yammy and the wolves ?

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

i send pages in earlier message.This is from there.And Yammy listed with Stark's Wolfs and curse of Barragan

「君が準備している攻撃は、今の 『王虚の閃光』よりも上という事か……」焦燥に満ちた表情で、ロカを強く睨みつける。「一体何をその 『糸』で再現するつもりだ……！スタークの群狼か？バラガンの呪いか？それとも、最大解放状態のヤミーの巨体でもその 『糸』で再現するつもりか？」。「それを超える力など、この虚圏に存在したとすれば藍染様か今の僕だけだ！

Is the attack you are preparing now is even more powerful than the last Gran Rey Ceros.With a frustrated expression, Cien glares at Roca. "What on earth are you going to reproduce with your ability ! Stark's Wolfs? Is it the curse of Barragan? Or you going to reproduce the maximal released Yammy giant ?". "If there was any power beyond that in Hueco Mundo, it would be Aizen-sama or my current power!

This is Roca copying stuff… nowhere does it say Starrk’s wolves can threaten Cien. This is about Roca. Roca copying stuff isn’t inherently equal to the original tmk. Also, buddy you can’t provide scans of raws without translations.

 

[zazabgfd]

You literally did in your post bruh.

Fair enough

Young Baraggan was in considerably more fights on a regular basis compared to Old Baraggan.

No Evidence.

He believed that his aspect of death was the strongest and that nothing could stand against it

Barragan arrogant but not stupid.He knew Aizen is stronger than him.And he want him dead.

 

[zazabgfd]

So , don't cien blatantly says here that he is stronger than yammy and the wolves ?

i never said that they stronger.But if they can damaged him more than 3 of his own Gran Rey Cero must mean that they scale to him,not?

 

[zazabgfd]

Roca copying stuff isn’t inherently equal to the original tmk.

Novel implied that her abilities weaker,but i dont thought that thir is relevant in this conversation.

Also, buddy you can’t provide scans of raws without translations.

ooo,sorry.I just thought that if you dont need it,i could skip the translation

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Starrk doesn’t fight Cien… that’s Roca… she can copy others abilities, that doesn’t mean the others must scale to Roca.

 

[Theendzero13]

i never said that they stronger.But if they can damaged him more than 3 of his own Gran Rey Cero must mean that they scale to him,not?

Yeah, the problem is that he say his power is greater in the same phrase while refering to hje wolves and yammy , that is why he is saying "if there was any power beyond thst in hueco mundo it would be aizen-sama or my current power , so he is saying that he is stronger than the wolves while teasing roka about what is sje gonna copy now that reflecting his gran rey failed to kill him

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

ooo,sorry.I just thought that if you dont need it,i could skip the translation

Not everyone here knows Japanese.

Novel implied that her abilities weaker,but i dont thought that thir is relevant in this conversation.

They only imply her Mugetsu is weaker.

 

[Theendzero13]

Starrk doesn’t fight Cien… that’s Roca… she can copy others abilities, that doesn’t mean the others must scale to Roca.

By the way arc , do you have the full translation for those scans , searching it for a while

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

By the way arc , do you have the full translation for those scans , searching it for a while

Naw I haven’t had much time to translate SAFWY

 

[zazabgfd]

that doesn’t mean the others must scale to Roca.

why?it it was stated several times that her techniques are weaker

They only imply her Mugetsu is weaker.

her Cero double and Gomelos Sonido were stated to be inferior.

 

[zazabgfd]

if there was any power beyond thst in hueco mundo it would be aizen-sama or my current power

well he could do at least 8 Gran rey Cero from his tentacles.And that power without the doubt is stronger

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

her Cero double and Gomelos Sonido were stated to be inferior.

Cero doble isn’t dependent on the users AP, it absorbs an attack and reflects it double, so that just means she couldn’t reflect it with double the strength. The sonido thing just means she’s slower than Zommari, the fastest Espada.

Also this novel is largely untranslated so I’m going to ask you to start bringing translated scans as proof.

 

[zazabgfd]

so that just means she couldn’t reflect it with double the strength.

Cien thought that she can.The inferior part comes with different thing

The sonido thing just means she’s slower than Zommari, the fastest Espada.

yes.He could use 5 clones and she only 4.But that was in her base form

Also this novel is largely untranslated so I’m going to ask you to start bringing translated scans as proof.

yes.I have all the Raw pages ,but i need some time to collect and present them with translation