Bleach: Possible Upgrade for Barragan, Starrk and Ulquiorra

[AStaticVoid]

Hi everyone, this is my first thread and I hope I don't get in trouble or not to respect the rules and so on. There is something I would like to bring into discussion today, without make calculations, measurements, or anything else, but simply following logic.

With the release of the official translations of CFYOW, many things have surfaced, including what is specified in the title.
The starting point is the set of what can be derived from those statements by Ikomikidomoe and Grimmjow himself, during their fight.





Here can we learn three main points:

• Ikomikidomoe has an equal/greater reiatsu than Barragan;

• Grimmjow knows that beings of the level of Barragan or Ikomikidomoe could even oneshot him;

• Grimmjow specifically stated that, again, he would most likely lose to beings to the level of Barragan or Aizen.


In this Wiki we have, in order of AP: CFYOW Grimmjow at High 6-A or higher with specific abilities, Ulquiorra at 6-A or higher with specific abilities, Starrk and Barragan at High 6-B or higher with specific abilities.
Reading the admissions of both Ikomikidomoe and Grimmjow himself it is possible to understand that he, even in his current post-timeskip state, is still weaker than Barragan. So, I believe it is due an upgrade for Barragan, Starrk and Ulquiorra. In fact, back to FKT Arc, we consider each of these stronger than Grimmjow, and Ulquiorra, also in this wiki, is the Espada in the highest tier during that Arc. Since CFYOW Grimmjow < Barragan, then CFYOW Grimmjow also < Starrk and Ulquiorra, because it is simply logical to consider CFYOW Grimmjow weaker than the likes equal/stronger/with equal/more reiatsu than Barragan himself [I would like to remind you that the ranking created by Aizen is based on the amount of reiryoku (= amount of spiritual energy)].

I know that not many people would appreciate backward-scaling of this type, but, by re-analyzing the individual fights of each of these Espada, it does not seem incredible that they could actually be at least in the same High 6-A tier of CFYOW Grimmjow.

• Barragan has won all kinds of confrontations against Omaeda, Soi Fon and Hachigen. What defeated Barragan was Barragan's power itself. Hachi has done nothing but insert, via Kidou, Barragan's power into Barragan's body. Nothing more, nothing less.





• For Starrk, there is the evergreen theory that he never used his true potential. Yes, this is very nice. But, in reality, during the clash between Shunsui and Lille, in TYBW, we discover that even Shunsui has not used his full potential against Starrk. I'm not talking about Bankai, I'm talking about other techniques of Shikai itself, the strongest ones, such as Duruma-san ga Koronda, Kageokuri, Yubikiri. So it is more than logical to assume that the Shunsui who fought Starrk is in the same tier of Shunsui who fought/stood up to Base Lille during TYBW.





• For Ulquiorra, the speech is quite long. He was defeated by a VL Ichigo which should be considered higher/far higher than 6-A.
I said so because I think there's also a mistake in how Ulquiorra's techniques are displayed in his AP section, which I don't know from what thread/calculation come from, but indeed it is out of logic.
This is the result of a Cero Oscuras casted by Ulquiorra in his 1st Etapa:





This is the explosion resulted from a clash between VL Ichigo's Cero and Ulquiorra 2nd Etapa's Cero Oscuras:





This, finally, is the explosion resulted from one single Lanza del Relampago, which truly make me think "Is there really need for a calculation to understand which technique is stronger between a Cero Oscuras and a Lanza?":


https://imgur.com/gallery/kJEe1I4


Following the same logic, Gran Rey Cero is also weaker than Cero Oscuras. As we all know, GRC can be used by any Espada in its base form, while Cero Oscuras is a Cero exclusive to Espada in their Resurrection form, with the consequent amplifications that come with it. Putting aside the fact that there is really no evidence that GRC is superior to Cero Oscuras or Lanza del Relampago, here too the speech for me is very simple and linear: if Gran Rey Cero were the most powerful technique of an Espada, what reason would they have to use techniques such as Ceros Oscuras, Lanza, Cascada, Cero Metralleta, Desgarron (that Grimmjow himself stated his strongest ability), etc? They could just always use GRC as their strongest technique. No.
Quite simply, in the specific case of Ulquiorra, Gran Rey Cero is weaker than Cero Oscuras, which in turn is much weaker than Lanza del Relampago, as the feats above show clearly.
So, in the case of Ulquiorra, I would say that it would be more correct to write: "6-A with Gran Rey Cero, higher with Cero Oscuras, far higher with Lanza del Relampago." The latter ability in his AP section is totally forgotten.


So what I think it would be logical to do here, in light of what is revealed in CFYOW, would be an upgrade for the Espada that Grimmjow knows they're stronger than himself such as Barragan. And consequently an upgrade for the Espadas who in turn are stronger than Barragan, such as Coyote Starrk and Ulquiorra.

I would say that in the light of the previous statements, it might be appropriate to consider all the three of them "At least High 6-A, higher (, far higher considering Ulquiorra's Lanza) with specific abilities". Much more than they currently are, it is true, but still completely logical and in a linear way with the same tier already accepted in this wiki for CFYOW Grimmjow.

I hope I didn't go against the rules somehow, let me know please.



Note: A point that should make everyone think about what I wrote above is Halibel. There is no evidence that, during the timeskip, she trained as stated for Grimmjow. How do you scale someone higher than their tier without training or explanations of the power up itself? I suppose, therefore, that it is reasonable to think that in fact she has always been in High 6-A tier and, in fact, she was defeated by Aizen who is considered at least High 6-A in this wiki.



Note 2: The reason I didn't include Yammy is that, to be honest, outside of the databook statements, considered good, he is the most featless of the Espada. His scaling and his being are ambiguous, as are the references that are made of him. For example: why is it forbidden for all Espada below number 4 to release their Resurrection because they have the power to destroy Las Noches, but it is not forbidden for Espada 10, if indeed with the Resurrection he becomes the strongest of the ten? Quite ambiguous, isn't it? So I preferred not to include him in the argument of this thread, but obviously feel free to include him alongside Barragan, Starrk and Ulquiorra.

 

[Bernkastelll]

bump

 

[Theendzero13]

Yeah i agree with the op it seens pretty clear that barragan is above TYBW grimmjow, who will scale to who and to what extent still needs to be discussed homever

 

[AStaticVoid]

Yeah i agree with the op it seens pretty clear that barragan is above TYBW grimmjow, who will scale to who and to what extent still needs to be discussed homever

I agree with what you wrote and I think it is right to consider in the possible Upgrade also Starrk and Ulquiorra because it is in this wiki itself that Ulquiorra is considered superior to Barragan, while Starrk is considered an equal. So a Barragan Upgrade could only coincide with an Upgrade of those Espada that are considered his equal or even superior. Because it would be all too strange and out of logic to have Barragan > CFYOW Grimmjow and Ulquiorra, who's considered > Barragan, to be < CFYOW Grimmjow.

 

[Theendzero13]

I agree with what you wrote and I think it is right to consider in the possible Upgrade also Starrk and Ulquiorra because it is in this wiki itself that Ulquiorra is considered superior to Barragan, while Starrk is considered an equal. So a Barragan Upgrade could only coincide with an Upgrade of those Espada that are considered his equal or even superior. Because it would be all too strange and out of logic to have Barragan > CFYOW Grimmjow and Ulquiorra, who's considered > Barragan, to be < CFYOW Grimmjow.

I think there is a moment of CFYOW where kenpachi compares grimmjow to nnoitra,so you could use that as secundary evidence if you find the scan, because now it is really looking like the gap betwenn pre and post timeskip ain't that large which would for sure upgrade people like barragan, ulquiorra and starkk to some of the stronger sternritter

 

[Theendzero13]

Also the 3 espada who went to karakura town are very relative in power to the point no character present could tell who was number 1, so pre time skip harribel should scale right?

 

[AStaticVoid]

I think there is a moment of CFYOW where kenpachi compares grimmjow to nnoitra,so you could use that as secundary evidence if you find the scan, because now it is really looking like the gap betwenn pre and post timeskip ain't that large which would for sure upgrade people like barragan, ulquiorra and starkk to some of the stronger sternritter

This is the part you are referring to and it seems pretty clear that Grimmjow has long surpassed the level of Nnoitra. Going hand in hand with those that are the clashes of CFYOW, I would say that Grimmjow has reached more or less the level of Halibel, who has not trained and should have, following the logic, a power completely identical to that of the FKT Arc .
In this way we remain in line with the statements of Grimmjow, that is, to be weaker than Barragan (and consequently weaker than those who are stronger than Barragan himself).

 

[Nierre]

Nice job

I agree

 

[Theendzero13]

This is the part you are referring to and it seems pretty clear that Grimmjow has long surpassed the level of Nnoitra. Going hand in hand with those that are the clashes of CFYOW, I would say that Grimmjow has reached more or less the level of Halibel, who has not trained and should have, following the logic, a power completely identical to that of the FKT Arc .
In this way we remain in line with the statements of Grimmjow, that is, to be weaker than Barragan (and consequently weaker than those who are stronger than Barragan himself).

Grimmjow having surpassed nnoitra and being somewhat comparable to nel and halli seens like th most consistent them

 

[AStaticVoid]

Also the 3 espada who went to karakura town are very relative in power to the point no character present could tell who was number 1, so pre time skip harribel should scale right?

Not really, since there are different scenes that allow us to guess that the three were initially somehow hiding their true potential. I am referring, for example, to when Halibel tells Toshiro, who had just seen her number, that she had not shown him even a little of what she was capable of. And logically, the other two did the same. Also because it is difficult to quantify the reiatsu of beings like Starrk, who have divided their souls into two spiritual bodies.
For convenience, better to consider Aizen's ranking which places them in order of amount of spiritual power.

 

[Theendzero13]

Bump

 

[Theendzero13]

I think you should call bleach supporters to evaluate this

 

[AStaticVoid]

@AnonymousBlank @USklaverei @Antvasima @LordTracer @Arc7Kuroi

 

[joshpiece]

@AnonymousBlank @USklaverei @Antvasima @LordTracer @Arc7Kuroi

Message their wall, you can’t ping if your not staff.

This looks alright to me but I’m not super knowledgeable on bleach.

 

[AStaticVoid]

Message their wall, you can’t ping if your not staff.

This looks alright to me but I’m not super knowledgeable on bleach.

Oh, sorry for that and thanks for the tip.
I just did it, so I guess when they have some free time they will come by and check out the thread.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Hi everyone, this is my first thread and I hope I don't get in trouble or not to respect the rules and so on. There is something I would like to bring into discussion today, without make calculations, measurements, or anything else, but simply following logic.

With the release of the official translations of CFYOW, many things have surfaced, including what is specified in the title.
The starting point is the set of what can be derived from those statements by Ikomikidomoe and Grimmjow himself, during their fight.





Here can we learn three main points:

• Ikomikidomoe has an equal/greater reiatsu than Barragan;

And the point of this line is to say that Ikomikidomoe is superior to Barragan.

• Grimmjow knows that beings of the level of Barragan or Ikomikidomoe could even oneshot him;

That says that the people he is currently fighting can do that.

• Grimmjow specifically stated that, again, he would most likely lose to beings to the level of Barragan or Aizen.

It doesn’t say the bolded. It said he would lose to them. Aizen is obvious and Barragan can win via raw hax.

In this Wiki we have, in order of AP: CFYOW Grimmjow at High 6-A or higher with specific abilities, Ulquiorra at 6-A or higher with specific abilities, Starrk and Barragan at High 6-B or higher with specific abilities.
Reading the admissions of both Ikomikidomoe and Grimmjow himself it is possible to understand that he, even in his current post-timeskip state, is still weaker than Barragan. So, I believe it is due an upgrade for Barragan, Starrk and Ulquiorra. In fact, back to FKT Arc, we consider each of these stronger than Grimmjow, and Ulquiorra, also in this wiki, is the Espada in the highest tier during that Arc. Since CFYOW Grimmjow < Barragan, then CFYOW Grimmjow also < Starrk and Ulquiorra, because it is simply logical to consider CFYOW Grimmjow weaker than the likes equal/stronger/with equal/more reiatsu than Barragan himself [I would like to remind you that the ranking created by Aizen is based on the amount of reiryoku (= amount of spiritual energy)].

You might need to go back through the scaling chain because even if we did accept this, your proposal wouldn’t go through since Grimm’s current rating is based on Starrk, Barragan and Ulq’s current ratings. If those change, so would Grimm’s which means that he would actually be downgraded to High 6-B.

I know that not many people would appreciate backward-scaling of this type, but, by re-analyzing the individual fights of each of these Espada, it does not seem incredible that they could actually be at least in the same High 6-A tier of CFYOW Grimmjow.

• Barragan has won all kinds of confrontations against Omaeda, Soi Fon and Hachigen. What defeated Barragan was Barragan's power itself. Hachi has done nothing but insert, via Kidou, Barragan's power into Barragan's body. Nothing more, nothing less.

Hachi’s barriers can contain Barragan until they get haxed and also contain the explosion that damaged Barragan. Seeing as Hachi uses his barriers for offence he is gonna end up scaling anyway.

• For Starrk, there is the evergreen theory that he never used his true potential. Yes, this is very nice. But, in reality, during the clash between Shunsui and Lille, in TYBW, we discover that even Shunsui has not used his full potential against Starrk. I'm not talking about Bankai, I'm talking about other techniques of Shikai itself, the strongest ones, such as Duruma-san ga Koronda, Kageokuri, Yubikiri. So it is more than logical to assume that the Shunsui who fought Starrk is in the same tier of Shunsui who fought/stood up to Base Lille during TYBW.

Saying that Shunsui wasn’t going all out via not playing some games doesn’t work as Shunsui doesn’t pick the games he plays, Katen does.

• For Ulquiorra, the speech is quite long. He was defeated by a VL Ichigo which should be considered higher/far higher than 6-A.
I said so because I think there's also a mistake in how Ulquiorra's techniques are displayed in his AP section, which I don't know from what thread/calculation come from, but indeed it is out of logic.
This is the result of a Cero Oscuras casted by Ulquiorra in his 1st Etapa:





This is the explosion resulted from a clash between VL Ichigo's Cero and Ulquiorra 2nd Etapa's Cero Oscuras:





This, finally, is the explosion resulted from one single Lanza del Relampago, which truly make me think "Is there really need for a calculation to understand which technique is stronger between a Cero Oscuras and a Lanza?":


https://imgur.com/gallery/kJEe1I4


Following the same logic, Gran Rey Cero is also weaker than Cero Oscuras.

Right so none of this brings up why GRC is weaker than CO. You just posted scans and then claimed something else entirely.

As we all know, GRC can be used by any Espada in its base form, while Cero Oscuras is a Cero exclusive to Espada in their Resurrection form, with the consequent amplifications that come with it.

Being able to use GRC in base is just another reason it’s better than CO? Also are you saying/implying that GRC can’t be used in Rez with the bolded? Cuz Luppi would like to have a word with you.

Putting aside the fact that there is really no evidence that GRC is superior to Cero Oscuras or Lanza del Relampago, here too the speech for me is very simple and linear: if Gran Rey Cero were the most powerful technique of an Espada,

The bolded is objectively false. Nowhere is it stated that GRC is an Espada’s strongest technique, just the ultimate Cero.

what reason would they have to use techniques such as Ceros Oscuras, Lanza, Cascada, Cero Metralleta, Desgarron (that Grimmjow himself stated his strongest ability), etc?

Because CO is easier to use than GRC which requires self harm, Lanza isn’t a Cero, Cascada is just a water attack and is comparable to Harribel’s normal Cero by feats, Metralleta is danmaku which is what Starrk needed to tag Shunsui, Desgarron isn’t a Cero.

They could just always use GRC as their strongest technique. No.

By your own line of questioning, why did Harribel use Cascada when she had CO? Her Cascada has nothing to say it’s better than her other stuff and has feats comparable to her normal Cero. Why does Luppi spam GRC instead of CO? And please don’t say it’s cuz he isn’t an Espada when he spams an Espada exclusive variant all the time.

Quite simply, in the specific case of Ulquiorra, Gran Rey Cero is weaker than Cero Oscuras, which in turn is much weaker than Lanza del Relampago, as the feats above show clearly.

Except you never posted anything about Ulq using GRC so how did you arrive at this conclusion of Ulq’s CO > Ulq’s GRC?

So, in the case of Ulquiorra, I would say that it would be more correct to write: "6-A with Gran Rey Cero, higher with Cero Oscuras, far higher with Lanza del Relampago." The latter ability in his AP section is totally forgotten.


So what I think it would be logical to do here, in light of what is revealed in CFYOW, would be an upgrade for the Espada that Grimmjow knows they're stronger than himself such as Barragan. And consequently an upgrade for the Espadas who in turn are stronger than Barragan, such as Coyote Starrk and Ulquiorra.

Well yes but no. As I explained above, they will never get an upgrade.

I would say that in the light of the previous statements, it might be appropriate to consider all the three of them "At least High 6-A, higher (, far higher considering Ulquiorra's Lanza) with specific abilities". Much more than they currently are, it is true, but still completely logical and in a linear way with the same tier already accepted in this wiki for CFYOW Grimmjow.


I hope I didn't go against the rules somehow, let me know please.



Note: A point that should make everyone think about what I wrote above is Halibel. There is no evidence that, during the timeskip, she trained as stated for Grimmjow. How do you scale someone higher than their tier without training or explanations of the power up itself? I suppose, therefore, that it is reasonable to think that in fact she has always been in High 6-A tier and, in fact, she was defeated by Aizen who is considered at least High 6-A in this wiki.

As was already mentioned, she is stated to be nigh equal to Starrk and Barragan. Her having slightly less energy wouldn’t stop her from not scaling to their tier. Then we have Ulq even saying that she is stronger than him and that him catching an L means nothing since 3-1 will all just step on Ichigo anyway.

Note 2: The reason I didn't include Yammy is that, to be honest, outside of the databook statements, considered good, he is the most featless of the Espada.

Being featless means nothing. Barragan is featless in terms of AP and Dura with the only scaling he has for them coming via his ranking and statements of his power. The exact same stuff you say Yammy has expect Yammy also comes with actual feats.

His scaling and his being are ambiguous, as are the references that are made of him. For example: why is it forbidden for all Espada below number 4 to release their Resurrection because they have the power to destroy Las Noches, but it is not forbidden for Espada 10,

I dunno if you realised but 10 is far weaker than 4. By this logic, why can Grimmjow release under the dome? Because he is number 6 just like because Yammy is number 10. Yammy becomes number 0 in the process of releasing so the number 0 never releases his Zanpakuto under the dome.

if indeed with the Resurrection he becomes the strongest of the ten? Quite ambiguous, isn't it? So I preferred not to include him in the argument of this thread, but obviously feel free to include him alongside Barragan, Starrk and Ulquiorra.

The only reason to not include Yammy is because he ruins your proposed scaling. He only has his rating because of Starrk and Barragan having their current ones. Yammy is part of the scaling chain that makes post time skip High 6-A’s High 6-A so it’s impossible to make people weaker than him, scale above him.

I agree with what you wrote and I think it is right to consider in the possible Upgrade also Starrk and Ulquiorra because it is in this wiki itself that Ulquiorra is considered superior to Barragan, while Starrk is considered an equal. So a Barragan Upgrade could only coincide with an Upgrade of those Espada that are considered his equal or even superior. Because it would be all too strange and out of logic to have Barragan > CFYOW Grimmjow and Ulquiorra, who's considered > Barragan, to be < CFYOW Grimmjow.

I’m sorry. What? Where does it say Ulq is > Barragan and are you saying Ulq is an equal to Starrk? Cuz Imma need scans for this stuff. If you are tryna use Ulq’s Segunda Etapa stuff around say he is > Barragan, lemme stop you right there. Barragan is only accepted to be superior to Ulq’s normal Rez but not his SE, which is why SE can be rated higher. This does not mean that SE is always superior to Barragan. If Barragan got an upgrade for people on his level, Ulq doesn’t scale to it at all.

 

[Antvasima]

@Elizhaa @Soldier_Blue @Shadowbokunohero @Starter_Pack @USklaverei @LordTracer @Arc7Kuroi @Theglassman12 @IMadeThisOn8-1-2017 @Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye

What do you think about this?

 

[Theendzero13]

And the point of this line is to say that Ikomikidomoe is superior to Barragan.

That says that the people he is currently fighting can do that.

It doesn’t say the bolded. It said he would lose to them. Aizen is obvious and Barragan can win via raw hax.

You might need to go back through the scaling chain because even if we did accept this, your proposal wouldn’t go through since Grimm’s current rating is based on Starrk, Barragan and Ulq’s current ratings. If those change, so would Grimm’s which means that he would actually be downgraded to High 6-B.

Hachi’s barriers can contain Barragan until they get haxed and also contain the explosion that damaged Barragan. Seeing as Hachi uses his barriers for offence he is gonna end up scaling anyway.

Saying that Shunsui wasn’t going all out via not playing some games doesn’t work as Shunsui doesn’t pick the games he plays, Katen does.


Right so none of this brings up why GRC is weaker than CO. You just posted scans and then claimed something else entirely.

Being able to use GRC in base is just another reason it’s better than CO? Also are you saying/implying that GRC can’t be used in Rez with the bolded? Cuz Luppi would like to have a word with you.

The bolded is objectively false. Nowhere is it stated that GRC is an Espada’s strongest technique, just the ultimate Cero.

Because CO is easier to use than GRC which requires self harm, Lanza isn’t a Cero, Cascada is just a water attack and is comparable to Harribel’s normal Cero by feats, Metralleta is danmaku which is what Starrk needed to tag Shunsui, Desgarron isn’t a Cero.

By your own line of questioning, why did Harribel use Cascada when she had CO? Her Cascada has nothing to say it’s better than her other stuff and has feats comparable to her normal Cero. Why does Luppi spam GRC instead of CO? And please don’t say it’s cuz he isn’t an Espada when he spams an Espada exclusive variant all the time.

Except you never posted anything about Ulq using GRC so how did you arrive at this conclusion of Ulq’s CO > Ulq’s GRC?

Well yes but no. As I explained above, they will never get an upgrade.

As was already mentioned, she is stated to be nigh equal to Starrk and Barragan. Her having slightly less energy wouldn’t stop her from not scaling to their tier. Then we have Ulq even saying that she is stronger than him and that him catching an L means nothing since 3-1 will all just step on Ichigo anyway.

Being featless means nothing. Barragan is featless in terms of AP and Dura with the only scaling he has for them coming via his ranking and statements of his power. The exact same stuff you say Yammy has expect Yammy also comes with actual feats.

I dunno if you realised but 10 is far weaker than 4. By this logic, why can Grimmjow release under the dome? Because he is number 6 just like because Yammy is number 10. Yammy becomes number 0 in the process of releasing so the number 0 never releases his Zanpakuto under the dome.

The only reason to not include Yammy is because he ruins your proposed scaling. He only has his rating because of Starrk and Barragan having their current ones. Yammy is part of the scaling chain that makes post time skip High 6-A’s High 6-A so it’s impossible to make people weaker than him, scale above him.

I’m sorry. What? Where does it say Ulq is > Barragan and are you saying Ulq is an equal to Starrk? Cuz Imma need scans for this stuff. If you are tryna use Ulq’s Segunda Etapa stuff around say he is > Barragan, lemme stop you right there. Barragan is only accepted to be superior to Ulq’s normal Rez but not his SE, which is why SE can be rated higher. This does not mean that SE is always superior to Barragan. If Barragan got an upgrade for people on his level, Ulq doesn’t scale to it at all.

Just want to say that raw power negs hax in most cases, i think SAFWY even comfirms that respira can in fact be negged by that
Also ikomikidomoe blatantly stated that he and barragan are above grimmjow

 

[AStaticVoid]

And the point of this line is to say that Ikomikidomoe is superior to Barragan.

The point of this line is to say that Ikomikidomoe is equal, if not (= maybe= perhaps= possibly) superior to Barragan. The way the author wrote and the way you twisted his words have totally different meanings. Or do we want to assume that something uncertain is indeed certain?

That says that the people he is currently fighting can do that.

The people he's currently fighting are Hikone and Ikomikidomoe, the same Ikomikidomoe who is stated to be equal if not superior to Barragan just two lines before.

It doesn’t say the bolded. It said he would lose to them. Aizen is obvious and Barragan can win via raw hax.

He would lose to them, exactly. What about Barragan's hax and why you're assuming Grimmjow is talking about his hax when Respira is never mentioned in the whole CFYOW? Even some pages before, is mentioned Barragan's spiritual pressure, not Barragan's Respira.

You might need to go back through the scaling chain because even if we did accept this, your proposal wouldn’t go through since Grimm’s current rating is based on Starrk, Barragan and Ulq’s current ratings. If those change, so would Grimm’s which means that he would actually be downgraded to High 6-B.

You could do this if you were able to explain how a Grimmjow High 6-B, after his 17 + 6 month training period (which explains how he got to the High 6-A tier), is able to fight and scale directly from CFYOW Ginjou and Hikone (both High 6-A), but at the same time and specifically stated to be possibly oneshotted or anyway beaten by individuals of the Barragan level (High 6-B).

Saying that Shunsui wasn’t going all out via not playing some games doesn’t work as Shunsui doesn’t pick the games he plays, Katen does.

Please, provide scans in which is stated the bolded. Again, don't twist the words: "My Katen Kyokotsu just wasn't up to it earlier" doesn't prove she picks the game. Also "She decides all the rules of the games" =/= "She picks the games".

Right so none of this brings up why GRC is weaker than CO. You just posted scans and then claimed something else entirely.

It would also be nice to understand on the basis of which principle Gran Rey Cero is superior to Cero Oscuras (also stated to be able to destroy Las Noches in Unmasked Databook) and to any other Ulquiorra's technique, as shown in his personal AP section (and of the Espada in general), when: 1. there is no evidence that it is actually the strongest of their offensive techniques since it lacks heavily in feats; 2. Espada like Grimmjow, explicitly states that, for example, Desgarron is his final technique, so stronger than GRC.
Instead of telling me to start the claim all over again, why not make me understand that I am wrong by actually showing me via feats that GRC is superior to Cero Oscuras/Lanza del Relmampago/so on?

Being able to use GRC in base is just another reason it’s better than CO? Also are you saying/implying that GRC can’t be used in Rez with the bolded? Cuz Luppi would like to have a word with you.

Please, quantify how stronger is a GRC than a normal Cero, if you can. Because for sure we know than a Cero casted in Resurrection is far stronger than a Cero casted in Base and we know also that a CO is 10x stronger than a normal Cero (casted in Resurrection, since it's the only form in which it can be casted). What about featless GRC you claim stronger?
(P.S.: Luppi can hold that word for himself, since that's not what I've said and it's just you twisting my words again).

The bolded is objectively false. Nowhere is it stated that GRC is an Espada’s strongest technique, just the ultimate Cero.

Then explain why in Ulquiorra's (Starrk too) AP section it is considered his strongest technique and Lanza del Relampago (which has far clearer feats than both GRC and CO and not just a ""reliable"" statement in a databook went out before the Cero Oscuras was shown) is totally forgotten.

Because CO is easier to use than GRC which requires self harm, Lanza isn’t a Cero, Cascada is just a water attack and is comparable to Harribel’s normal Cero by feats, Metralleta is danmaku which is what Starrk needed to tag Shunsui, Desgarron isn’t a Cero.

The first sentence is meaningless, since I might argue that GRC is easier to use because it doesn't require them to go into Resurrection. Lanza isn't a Cero, but has higher feats than both GRC and CO, and yet it's totally forgotten in Ulquiorra's AP section. Then Halibel was dumb to spam Cascadas when she could just end the fight with a GRC, which you're implicitly considering her strongest ability. For Starrk was an example, since even in his profile his Wolves are totally forgotten. Wolves are stated to be far more stronger than a Cero, isn't it? "A Cero wouldn't be powerfull enough to hurt people like you", wasn't these Starrk words? Then, can you please tell me why Starrk decided to split and use his soul to attack Rose and Love when he could just use some blood for a GRC, which, again, you implicitly consider his strongest technique in his AP section

By your own line of questioning, why did Harribel use Cascada when she had CO? Her Cascada has nothing to say it’s better than her other stuff and has feats comparable to her normal Cero. Why does Luppi spam GRC instead of CO? And please don’t say it’s cuz he isn’t an Espada when he spams an Espada exclusive variant all the time.

Yeah, I'll follow your line: why did Starrk used his Wolves when he had GRC (you consider it his strongest ability in his AP section)? His wolves were far more powerful than a Cero. Why Ulquiorra just continued to use CO and Lanza (totally forgotten in his AP section) while he was getting smashed by VL Ichigo when he had GRC (which you consider his strongest ability in his AP section)? An please don't say because GRC requieres blood which was present in abudance.

Except you never posted anything about Ulq using GRC so how did you arrive at this conclusion of Ulq’s CO > Ulq’s GRC?

Except you never proved how GRC > CO? You answered yourself. How do you make GRC his strongest technique (check his AP section) when it has absolutely no feats compared to CO and Lanza and the "ultimate cero" statement for GRC comes from a pre-CO databook?

Well yes but no. As I explained above, they will never get an upgrade.

Even if nothing has been proven by your part, everything you said is easily debatable and many of the arguments used are based on nothing more than your personal liking for a character? We are talking about ignoring very clear statements for an unspecified reason. By keeping Grimmjow, who believe himself to be weaker than Barragan, in a higher tier. If you wanna say it's because of Respira, please re-read CFYOW and tell me how many times is Respira mentioned. Can I understand its meaning? Illogical.

As was already mentioned, she is stated to be nigh equal to Starrk and Barragan.

Please provide a scan for this and, also, tell me how she jumped from High 6-B in FKT Arc to High 6-A in CFYOW surpassing both Starrk and Barragan without even train. Pretty fun.

I dunno if you realised but 10 is far weaker than 4. By this logic, why can Grimmjow release under the dome? Because he is number 6 just like because Yammy is number 10. Yammy becomes number 0 in the process of releasing so the number 0 never releases his Zanpakuto under the dome.

Perhaps there is some error in understanding the text here.
"It is forbidden to release the Resurrection to Espada 4-1 because it is so powerful it can destroy Las Noches".
Am I wrong or Espada 10 releasing its Resurrection automatically becomes 0 not after, but during the process itself? Am I wrong or here we are assuming, once again just assumption from there, that the Espada 4-3-2-1 have a resurrection so powerful that it can destroy LN but Yammy, the 0 Espada during the resurrection process itself, is still more powerful than them even if it is not stated able to destroy LN?

The only reason to not include Yammy is because he ruins your proposed scaling. He only has his rating because of Starrk and Barragan having their current ones. Yammy is part of the scaling chain that makes post time skip High 6-A’s High 6-A so it’s impossible to make people weaker than him, scale above him.

It would actually be better to say that I didn't include Yammy because he was clapped without any difficulty by two heavily wounded Captains, one of whom nearly died in a fight against an Espada far more weaker than Yammy. It seems to me that you too are considering only what suits you, right? Also I have written quite clearly that for me Yammy can be included, so please don't twist my words once again. They are written in a rather understandable way, I guess

I’m sorry. What? Where does it say Ulq is > Barragan and are you saying Ulq is an equal to Starrk? Cuz Imma need scans for this stuff. If you are tryna use Ulq’s Segunda Etapa stuff around say he is > Barragan, lemme stop you right there. Barragan is only accepted to be superior to Ulq’s normal Rez but not his SE, which is why SE can be rated higher. This does not mean that SE is always superior to Barragan. If Barragan got an upgrade for people on his level, Ulq doesn’t scale to it at all.

Perfect logic. Can you explain to me why at their best Ulquiorra is considered 6-A and Barragan, instead, High 6-B, as well as Starrk also High 6-B?
What you are telling me is this: according to Aizen's ranking (which does not take into account the Segunda Etapa, just to remind you that), Starrk is one step above Barragan in amount of spiritual power, as is Yammy. So Barragan is an equal of Ikomikidomoe, is stronger than CFYOW Grimmjow, and Starrk who has more amount of spiritual power than Barragan shouldn't scale up to par/superior to Barragan, who is stated above CFYOW Grimmjow but below Starrk?

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Sheeeesh how’d I miss this, I’ll give my thoughts later today.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

The point of this line is to say that Ikomikidomoe is equal, if not (= maybe= perhaps= possibly) superior to Barragan. The way the author wrote and the way you twisted his words have totally different meanings. Or do we want to assume that something uncertain is indeed certain?

Meaning he is stronger. Also if something is uncertain, why would we assume it’s a certainty? Aka, what you are doing.

An example would be on the MCU profiles for Thor and Carol. In the director’s commentary for Endgame, the Russos say that Carol is as strong as Thor, if not even stronger (very similar wording ain’t it). What this statement means is that Thor’s level in EG is the minimum of what we can rate Carol as and when we see her have better feats and showings against a guy who scales above Thor, we scale her to that guy but don’t scale Thor up there. Why? Because he has nothing to put him up there, just like Barragan.

The people he's currently fighting are Hikone and Ikomikidomoe, the same Ikomikidomoe who is stated to be equal if not superior to Barragan just two lines before.

And you realise that the “if not superior” ***** your whole argument right? This doesn’t scale Barragan to Ikomikidomoe, it scales Ikomikidomoe above Barragan.

He would lose to them, exactly. What about Barragan's hax and why you're assuming Grimmjow is talking about his hax when Respira is never mentioned in the whole CFYOW? Even some pages before, is mentioned Barragan's spiritual pressure, not Barragan's Respira.

First of all, I never said he would lose because of Respira. I said that he could lose because of Respira. Those are two very different things.

Secondly, that quote doesn’t say that he would lose to Barragan because of stats, that says he would lose to Barragan. I presented a way for that line to hold true without assuming anything that hasn’t already been established (Grimm has no resistance to age manip so Barragan’s hax can indeed kill him). You are using it as support as if it refers to Barragan’s stats when it doesn’t say that at all.

You could do this if you were able to explain how a Grimmjow High 6-B, after his 17 + 6 month training period (which explains how he got to the High 6-A tier), is able to fight and scale directly from CFYOW Ginjou and Hikone (both High 6-A), but at the same time and specifically stated to be possibly oneshotted or anyway beaten by individuals of the Barragan level (High 6-B).

Easy. Narita done goofed and doesn’t know what he is saying. Those people that Grimmjow can fight scale way above what Barragan tiers do.

Please, provide scans in which is stated the bolded. Again, don't twist the words: "My Katen Kyokotsu just wasn't up to it earlier" doesn't prove she picks the game. Also "She decides all the rules of the games" =/= "She picks the games".

Bruh. Are you reading what you type? If Katen Kyokotsu wasn’t up to it earlier, that means Kyoraku isn’t choosing to not play the games, he can’t play the games. That means him not using them in a fight doesn’t mean he isn’t doing his best in the fight.

It would also be nice to understand on the basis of which principle Gran Rey Cero is superior to Cero Oscuras (also stated to be able to destroy Las Noches in Unmasked Databook) and to any other Ulquiorra's technique, as shown in his personal AP section (and of the Espada in general), when: 1. there is no evidence that it is actually the strongest of their offensive techniques since it lacks heavily in feats; 2. Espada like Grimmjow, explicitly states that, for example, Desgarron is his final technique, so stronger than GRC.
Instead of telling me to start the claim all over again, why not make me understand that I am wrong by actually showing me via feats that GRC is superior to Cero Oscuras/Lanza del Relmampago/so on?

It is stated to be the ultimate Cero. That’s it. If you know what ultimate means, you would understand why it is superior to Cero Oscuras.

Please, quantify how stronger is a GRC than a normal Cero, if you can. Because for sure we know than a Cero casted in Resurrection is far stronger than a Cero casted in Base and we know also that a CO is 10x stronger than a normal Cero (casted in Resurrection, since it's the only form in which it can be casted). What about featless GRC you claim stronger?
(P.S.: Luppi can hold that word for himself, since that's not what I've said and it's just you twisting my words again).

Child’s play. GRC > CO = x10 Cero. This is on the profiles for a reason. There was a whole CRT about this and then it got brought up on the scaling for the Arrancar Saga.

Then explain why in Ulquiorra's (Starrk too) AP section it is considered his strongest technique and Lanza del Relampago (which has far clearer feats than both GRC and CO and not just a ""reliable"" statement in a databook went out before the Cero Oscuras was shown) is totally forgotten.

Go quote the parts in their profiles that contradict what I said. Nothing in their profile says it’s their strongest techniques. The profiles reflect that it is superior to CO (which is true). Ulq’s profile doesn’t even bother rating Lanza at all. Unless you can show where the profile actually states it is their strongest move like how Desgarron is stated to be Grimm’s strongest and not an implication, my point stands.

The first sentence is meaningless, since I might argue that GRC is easier to use because it doesn't require them to go into Resurrection. Lanza isn't a Cero, but has higher feats than both GRC and CO, and yet it's totally forgotten in Ulquiorra's AP section. Then Halibel was dumb to spam Cascadas when she could just end the fight with a GRC, which you're implicitly considering her strongest ability. For Starrk was an example, since even in his profile his Wolves are totally forgotten. Wolves are stated to be far more stronger than a Cero, isn't it? "A Cero wouldn't be powerfull enough to hurt people like you", wasn't these Starrk words? Then, can you please tell me why Starrk decided to split and use his soul to attack Rose and Love when he could just use some blood for a GRC, which, again, you implicitly consider his strongest technique in his AP section

Okay. You need to actually read my words because you missed the entire point of that paragraph. GRC is the ultimate Cero, ergo it is stronger than CO because CO is, and I kid you not, a Cero. Cascada isn’t, Lanza isn’t, Desgarron isn’t. They don’t matter and people using certain attacks doesn’t mean those attacks are their strongest. Harribel and Starrk were simply using their kit wrong considering Starrk uses basic ass Ceros in Rez instead of CO or GRC. Are you telling me that those are now his strongest tech because it doesn’t make sense to not use your best move at all times?

Yeah, I'll follow your line: why did Starrk used his Wolves when he had GRC (you consider it his strongest ability in his AP section)? His wolves were far more powerful than a Cero.

Yes, why use the intelligent wolves that act independently of you, chase down your target and reform when they get destroyed pre kamikaze instead of the beam that can easily be dodged and unable to be redirected when it misses? Gee, I wonder why Starrk used those instead of GRC. Also, the wolves are more powerful than Ceros, a statement from a guy who has only had to deal with Starrk’s normal Ceros and none of his better ones.

Why Ulquiorra just continued to use CO and Lanza (totally forgotten in his AP section) while he was getting smashed by VL Ichigo when he had GRC (which you consider his strongest ability in his AP section)? An please don't say because GRC requieres blood which was present in abudance.

Cuz they are all morons who don’t know how to use their powers right. Grimmjow went hth in Rez even though he had access to CO, Starrk fired normal Ceros instead of anything else for 2/3s of his fight, Aaroniero never bother with anything besides Nejibana, Szayelaporro and Zommari only used the powers of their Rez, Harribel spammed water which she had already seen Toshiro hard counter rather than drop him on his neck with Cero instead. Face it, the Espada is a team full of dumbass **** ups who have the potential to get shit done but just brain fart. Relying on their intelligence (besides Starrk’s some of the time) is a god awful idea to base an argument on.

Except you never proved how GRC > CO? You answered yourself. How do you make GRC his strongest technique (check his AP section) when it has absolutely no feats compared to CO and Lanza and the "ultimate cero" statement for GRC comes from a pre-CO databook?

You understand that the statement doesn’t get contradicted yes? It doesn’t matter if it comes before the introduction of something else if it doesn’t get retconned. CO already exists within the context of the verse so GRC being called the ultimate Cero will still apply to it since Espada didn’t magically gain access to CO after a certain chapter. This isn’t as if the Databook said GRC is the ultimate Cero and then later on in the story, Ulq comes along and develops a new Cero after the book was published. They already had CO, we just hadn’t seen it yet.

Even if nothing has been proven by your part, everything you said is easily debatable and many of the arguments used are based on nothing more than your personal liking for a character?

Liking of what character? Who said I like Grimmjow? That’s a mighty fine assumption on your part when I never said anything of the sort so go get proof that I am opposing you because I prefer one character over another. The only shit I have said pertains to the inverse scaling and the statements about Ceros. None of it has to do with me liking a character.

We are talking about ignoring very clear statements for an unspecified reason.

It isn’t a clear statement. Not in the way you think it is. What the statements make clear is

1. Ikomikidomoe is at least as strong as Barragan.
2. Ikomikidomoe can one shot Grimmjow if he ***** up
3. Barragan can beat Grimmjow.

None of the statements involving Barragan have him scale to Ikomikidomoe or Grimmjow in stats unless you ignore half of the words.

By keeping Grimmjow, who believe himself to be weaker than Barragan,

Go get the scan where he said he is weaker. Grimmjow thought he would lose to him, not that he is weaker. Winning =/= stronger

in a higher tier. If you wanna say it's because of Respira, please re-read CFYOW and tell me how many times is Respira mentioned. Can I understand its meaning? Illogical.

Respira doesn’t need to be mentioned at all. The statement is that Barragan can beat Grimm so we look at the context of what Barragan does in fights. He spams Respira. This means that Grimmjow taking an L would more likely be the result of Barragan’s only in character move rather than his stats being stronger.

Please provide a scan for this and, also, tell me how she jumped from High 6-B in FKT Arc to High 6-A in CFYOW surpassing both Starrk and Barragan without even train. Pretty fun.

Simple. She got beat tf up by Yhwach and Zenkai’d cuz she was near dead. She is stronger.

Perhaps there is some error in understanding the text here.
"It is forbidden to release the Resurrection to Espada 4-1 because it is so powerful it can destroy Las Noches".
Am I wrong or Espada 10 releasing its Resurrection automatically becomes 0 not after, but during the process itself? Am I wrong or here we are assuming, once again just assumption from there, that the Espada 4-3-2-1 have a resurrection so powerful that it can destroy LN but Yammy, the 0 Espada during the resurrection process itself, is still more powerful than them even if it is not stated able to destroy LN?

He is Espada 10 when he releases, when he is done, he is Espada 0. This means that it’s an Espada 10 release and not Espada 0 release.

It would actually be better to say that I didn't include Yammy because he was clapped without any difficulty by two heavily wounded Captains, one of whom nearly died in a fight against an Espada far more weaker than Yammy. It seems to me that you too are considering only what suits you, right? Also I have written quite clearly that for me Yammy can be included, so please don't twist my words once again. They are written in a rather understandable way, I guess

Heavily wounded ……… Kenpachi gets stronger the closer to death he is and Byakuya was fine. A cut to his arm and leg is definitely not “heavily wounded”.

And even if they were heavily wounded, that just makes their performance against Yammy even better since Yammy only got scratched by Ichigo who is half the power of the one that harmed Aizen. Kenny was responsible for bodying the two Espada with the strongest dura. Considering that Starrk could harm and was harmed in turn by Shunsui’s Shikai, his AP and Dura are relative to each other which means that Kenny harming Nnoitra and Yammy makes him stronger than Shikai Shunsui.

Perfect logic. Can you explain to me why at their best Ulquiorra is considered 6-A and Barragan, instead, High 6-B, as well as Starrk also High 6-B?

1. Because Damage (I think it was Damage) wouldn’t accept Ulquiorra’s own statement that Harribel, Barragan and Starrk are stronger than him and we had to accept it or be stuck in limbo on that thread for ages.
2. Ulq being rated higher doesn’t mean he is inherently stronger when he himself says they are more powerful than him. The pages are just wrong on that account.

What you are telling me is this: according to Aizen's ranking (which does not take into account the Segunda Etapa,

Prove Aizen didn’t know about SE and that the ranking doesn’t take it into account. Yammy is stronger than Ulq via Databook statements which are all in the context of him being the 0 Espada. If the databook says that Yammy is stronger than Ulq and all of the others because he is number 0, why would the same not hold true for 1-3?

just to remind you that), Starrk is one step above Barragan in amount of spiritual power, as is Yammy. So Barragan is an equal of Ikomikidomoe, is stronger than CFYOW Grimmjow, and Starrk who has more amount of spiritual power than Barragan shouldn't scale up to par/superior to Barragan, who is stated above CFYOW Grimmjow but below Starrk?

Because Ikomikidomoe being as strong or stronger than Barragan isn’t a definitive statement that Barragan would scale to the former. What we can take from that statement (that is actually a certainty) is that Ikomikidomoe is at least as strong as Barragan. I dunno why you are trying to force the idea that Barragan scales above himself when the quote you are using to do so gives us two options. One fits the scaling chain, the other doesn’t. You been pushing the latter this whole time.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Iko is the strongest hollow at his full power which would be when he had his original name. I don’t see how Barragan could scale to him when it took the likes of Ichibei and Yama to defeat and seal him in the past.

 

[Theendzero13]

Iko is the strongest hollow at his full power which would be when he had his original name. I don’t see how Barragan could scale to him when it took the likes of Ichibei and Yama to defeat and seal him in the past.

I don't think that is the op main point considering how ikomikidomoe gets stronger over time , by comsuming reish or something

The main point is that ikomikidomoe not only considers grimmjow bellow barragan,but grimmjow himself does not think he can beat barragan and even the there is even a statement of ikomikidomoe having equal if not greater SP than barragan, the fact of it not blatantly saying that ikomikidomoe has more SP than barragan instead using "if not" can imply they are somewhat relatives
Ps: i also do not think this is full power iko,since ikone still jas getei kaijou on, barragan would only scale a little bellow nerfed iko and above TYBW grimmjow

 

[AStaticVoid]

Meaning he is stronger. Also if something is uncertain, why would we assume it’s a certainty?Aka, what you are doing.

An example would be on the MCU profiles for Thor and Carol. In the director’s commentary for Endgame, the Russos say that Carol is as strong as Thor, if not even stronger (very similar wording ain’t it). What this statement means is that Thor’s level in EG is the minimum of what we can rate Carol as and when we see her have better feats and showings against a guy who scales above Thor, we scale her to that guy but don’t scale Thor up there. Why? Because he has nothing to put him up there, just like Barragan.

Once again you answered yourself with the bolded text. While is certain Barragan is equal to Ikokimidomoe, the fact he's above Barragan is uncertain. Aka what are you doing?
The example meaningless. How can you prove what is valid for MCU is also valid for Bleach? Same wording, different verses, different laws, different scaling. Not trying to offend, but compare two different verses basing your claim on two words used in this way is just something only a newbie would do.

And you realise that the “if not superior” ***** your whole argument right?

I don't see how, since it's an assumption, and I suppose people who scale here don't base their whole scaling on assumption. You're purposely ignoring what is clearly stated to be certain with something is simple assumed.

First of all, I never said he would lose because of Respira. I said that he could lose because of Respira. Those are two very different things.

Secondly, that quote doesn’t say that he would lose to Barragan because of stats, that says he would lose to Barragan. I presented a way for that line to hold true without assuming anything that hasn’t already been established (Grimm has no resistance to age manip so Barragan’s hax can indeed kill him). You are using it as support as if it refers to Barragan’s stats when it doesn’t say that at all.

So, what are you doing once again, is assume he could lose due to Barragan's Hax when Barragan's Hax is never mentioned in the whole three volumes of CFYOW. Do you know what is mentioned? It's mentioned Barragan's SP, as is mentioned Barragan to be equal to Iko. He would lose against beings such as Hikone, Ikomikidomoe and Barragan possibly with one shot (since Ikomikidomoe is clearly stated to be equal of Barragan and to be able to even oneshot him) and even to Aizen.

Easy. Narita done goofed and doesn’t know what he is saying. Those people that Grimmjow can fight scale way above what Barragan tiers do.

What Narita wrote is canon, unfortunetely for you. Those people that Grimmjow can fight doesn't scale way above what Barragan can do, since someone here doesn't read CFYOW carefully enough to understand that Barragan and Iko are equals and the being such as Grimmjow, even after his 23 month training period, are "far cry from those such as Barragan and him".

Bruh. Are you reading what you type? If Katen Kyokotsu wasn’t up to it earlier, that means Kyoraku isn’t choosing to not play the games, he can’t play the games. That means him not using them in a fight doesn’t mean he isn’t doing his best in the fight.

As I had guessed, these seem like the words coming from a person who has not read CFYOW. Not carefully, at least.
When Yubikiri is first used, Kyoraku literally plays a game that bothers Katen Kyokotsu, aka he force her to play the game he wants. Since Ohana would become upset when Kyoraku made Pinky Promise (= Yubikiri) with other people, Kyoraku doesn't use the ability often.
Strange, isn't it? This literally goes against what you just wrote, since Ohana's personality should prevent Kyoraku from playing that game from the very beginning, according to what you claim.

It is stated to be the ultimate Cero. That’s it. If you know what ultimate means, you would understand why it is superior to Cero Oscuras.

It is stated to be the Ultimate Cero by a Databook who cames out before the first shown of Cero Oscuras and only there. Can you tell me what happens when a single statement, from a databook (just saying) shows literally zero feats compared to what it's stated to do in that single statement?
Can you also tell how it is stronger than CO when CO it is also stated (statement empowerd by a huge feat, see above) to be able to destroy Las Noches?
Also, you still missing in prove why it is considered Ulquiorra's strongest offensive ability in his AP section. This is what? The third, the forth time I ask for it?

Child’s play. GRC > CO = x10 Cero. This is on the profiles for a reason. There was a whole CRT about this and then it got brought up on the scaling for the Arrancar Saga.

Such a child's play that you cannot quantify it. Why? Oh, yes. Because you base everything you know on a single word that you think is perfectly reliable, but which in the work you should know, or at least I think you should, showed no significant feat. GRC > CO= 10x Cero in Resurrection state? Can I please see GRC show even just one feat of prominence that should make me believe it is superior to Cero Oscuras which, by the way, received the same kind of statement about being able to cause the destruction of Las Noches (empowered by a huge feat, not a single word from a databook)? Because here I have a CO which pulverised half of Las Noches.
If you're base everything you say on a single word from a single Databook, then there is a problem with this wiki. I'm not rejecting GRC capacities, I'm simple saying that Cero Oscuras should be higher than it, since what it shown in both AP and DC feats is far above what GRC shown.

Go quote the parts in their profiles that contradict what I said. Nothing in their profile says it’s their strongest techniques. The profiles reflect that it is superior to CO (which is true). Ulq’s profile doesn’t even bother rating Lanza at all. Unless you can show where the profile actually states it is their strongest move like how Desgarron is stated to be Grimm’s strongest and not an implication, my point stands.

"Large Country level (Even stronger than before, his Reiryoku is stronger than anything he's previously displayed), Continent level+ with Cero Oscuras, higher with Gran Rey Cero".
Where's Lanza del Relampago? If you're ok with this AP section, it means you accept Ulquiorra AP capabilities stops at GRC, aka you're treating GRC as his strong ability, since otherwise it should be legit written there "Far higher with Lanza del Relampago", since the latter shown a feat far greater than both GRC and CO and thier statements combined.

Okay. You need to actually read my words because you missed the entire point of that paragraph. GRC is the ultimate Cero, ergo it is stronger than CO because CO is, and I kid you not, a Cero. Cascada isn’t, Lanza isn’t, Desgarron isn’t. They don’t matter and people using certain attacks doesn’t mean those attacks are their strongest. Harribel and Starrk were simply using their kit wrong considering Starrk uses basic ass Ceros in Rez instead of CO or GRC. Are you telling me that those are now his strongest tech because it doesn’t make sense to not use your best move at all times?

And you need to read carefully mine, since you truly missing their meaning through the whole post, when I've wrote them several times.
I'll try to explain it again: in this wiki you people wrote in Espada's pages such as Ulquiorra and Starrk, GRC is the strongest ability (since is the ability where caps their AP section). Wolves aren't a Cero and are stated to be far more powerful than a Cero. Please tell me why it isn't present in Starrk's AP section, since you are not able to quantify the strenght on GRC, as you're not able to quantify the strenght of the Wolves, but decided that GRC is stronger than the wolves themeselves. Where's the reason?
Same goes for Lanza del Relampago.

Yes, why use the intelligent wolves that act independently of you, chase down your target and reform when they get destroyed pre kamikaze instead of the beam that can easily be dodged and unable to be redirected when it misses? Gee, I wonder why Starrk used those instead of GRC. Also, the wolves are more powerful than Ceros, a statement from a guy who has only had to deal with Starrk’s normal Ceros and none of his better ones.

The balded. Sorry, but it was better for you to check the Chapter before comment. The statement comes from Starrk himself, not from Rose and Love.

Yes, why use the intelligent wolves which are pieces of your soul you consume little by little to attack, when you can use a Cero which is way faster and stronger than a normal Cero and which someone consider > CO = 10x stronger than a Cero in Resurrection. I mean, you're right. Why spill some blood from a finger when you can just tears your soul in pieces and use them to attack?

It isn’t a clear statement. Not in the way you think it is. What the statements make clear is

1. Ikomikidomoe is at least as strong as Barragan.
2. Ikomikidomoe can one shot Grimmjow if he ***** up
3. Barragan can beat Grimmjow.

None of the statements involving Barragan have him scale to Ikomikidomoe or Grimmjow in stats unless you ignore half of the words.

It's a really clear statement, definitely more clearly than others you're trying to use from some Databook, in which ofter are written thing that can't fit the context of the work itself.

1. Barragan is equal to Ikomikidomoe, if not(/maybe/possibly/perhaps) stronger.
2. Hikone and Ikomikidomoe, the same Ikomikidomoe stated to be equal to Barragan two lines above, can oneshot Grimmjow.
3. Grimmjow lose to the likes of (Dictionary - "Likes: used with reference to a person or thing of the same kind as another." Text comprehension - In the context is most likely referred to their level of power) of Aizen OR Barragan. I prevent you from twist my words once again. Please, dont' say I'm saying Barragan and Aizen are equal. With basic text comprehension skill, it's easy understand here that Grimmjow would lose on being on the level of Barragan or on the level of Aizen.
4. Grimmjow is far cry from Barragan and Ikomikidomoe.

In each of this statements, or at least three of them with high references in the forth, Barragan is literally one of the main subjects.

Go get the scan where he said he is weaker. Grimmjow thought he would lose to him, not that he is weaker. Winning =/= stronger

Can you explain me what there's written in the first slide? Ikomikidomoe's statement.

Respira doesn’t need to be mentioned at all. The statement is that Barragan can beat Grimm so we look at the context of what Barragan does in fights. He spams Respira. This means that Grimmjow taking an L would more likely be the result of Barragan’s only in character move rather than his stats being stronger.

If you claim he beat Grimmjow via Respira, then Respira must be mentioned, or you're just assuming he would use it.
Then, let's all assume what each of us want: I assume Barragan can just rely on his time dilation field to "sent Grimmjow's head flying" with a slash of his axe.

Simple. She got beat tf up by Yhwach and Zenkai’d cuz she was near dead. She is stronger.

Seriously? And one more thing you can't prove, right? I wish it were the first.

He is Espada 10 when he releases, when he is done, he is Espada 0. This means that it’s an Espada 10 release and not Espada 0 release.

So if I understand correctly, what you are saying is that it is the very process of releasing the Zanpakuto of an Espada 4 and below numbers, which has the power to destroy Las Noches, but the power of an Espada 4 and numbers below once released is not able to if not with GRC or Cero Oscuras?
Because in the latter case you are practically agreeing with me in the ambiguity of Yammy's release, since the Espada 0, the strongest, is unable to destroy Las Noches without using techniques that the Espada 9 can also use, and therefore its Resurrection is automatically weaker than numbers 4 and below.

Heavily wounded ……… Kenpachi gets stronger the closer to death he is and Byakuya was fine. A cut to his arm and leg is definitely not “heavily wounded”.

And even if they were heavily wounded, that just makes their performance against Yammy even better since Yammy only got scratched by Ichigo who is half the power of the one that harmed Aizen. Kenny was responsible for bodying the two Espada with the strongest dura. Considering that Starrk could harm and was harmed in turn by Shunsui’s Shikai, his AP and Dura are relative to each other which means that Kenny harming Nnoitra and Yammy makes him stronger than Shikai Shunsui.

Again. Seriously?
Kenpachi: two holes, one in the chest, one in the abdomen; deep cuts everywhere, including one in the throat that made Kenpachi himself admit that he would die and he didn't want to die.
Byakuya: "a cut to his arm and leg is definitely not heavily injured". Do you call them two light wounds that concern the nerves of the limbs and no longer allow you to use them?
This happened with Espadas considered much, much weaker than Yammy. Still, Yammy himself was torn apart very easily, right? This isn't ambiguous at all, is it?

1. Because Damage (I think it was Damage) wouldn’t accept Ulquiorra’s own statement that Harribel, Barragan and Starrk are stronger than him and we had to accept it or be stuck in limbo on that thread for ages.
2. Ulq being rated higher doesn’t mean he is inherently stronger when he himself says they are more powerful than him. The pages are just wrong on that account.

Then I can only say Damage was quite correct on first point, since Espada's self-statements about their strenght/speed in the ranks (Zommari self-stated he was the fasted espada; Nnoitra self-stated he was the strongest espada) were revealed to be simply false.
Yeah, Ulquiorra page is wrong in many points, especially the AP section in which is forgotten his attack with the highest feat.

Prove Aizen didn’t know about SE and that the ranking doesn’t take it into account. Yammy is stronger than Ulq via Databook statements which are all in the context of him being the 0 Espada. If the databook says that Yammy is stronger than Ulq and all of the others because he is number 0, why would the same not hold true for 1-3?

Prove Aizen know about Secunda Etapa when not also the manga, but even the Databook you like so much stated twice Aizen didn't know about it.
Tell me: how does Aizen's ranking to be valid in considering Yammy more powerful than Ulquiorra (a point on which you are focusing in a quiet meaningless way, since the main point of the topic is another), if Aizen is not aware of the 2nd Etapa? I answer for you, very simply it is not valid starting from number 4 and below, since it does not take into account the full potential of Ulquiorra. Or can you prove that the manga statement and the two databook statements are false by proving that Aizen knew the 2nd Etapa? I'll wait for it.

Because Ikomikidomoe being as strong or stronger than Barragan isn’t a definitive statement that Barragan would scale to the former. What we can take from that statement (that is actually a certainty) is that Ikomikidomoe is at least as strong as Barragan. I dunno why you are trying to force the idea that Barragan scales above himself when the quote you are using to do so gives us two options. One fits the scaling chain, the other doesn’t. You been pushing the latter this whole time.

Perhaps the author's words, once again, are not clear. Whether you want to consider Barragan equal (correct choice, from the linearity point of view that I explained in the thread) to Ikomikidomoe and therefore stronger than Grimmjow, this makes Barragan a being at least in the same tier as Grimmjow, possibly higher. With the consequence that whoever possesses more spiritual power than him, goes into the same state respect a Grimmjow who scales to Hikone and Ginjou.
Whether you want to consider Barragan below (assumption) of Ikomikidomoe and therefore anyway superior to Grimmjow, as stated in any case, you are still considering Barragan superior to CFYOW Grimmjow, with the consequence that all those with more spiritual power than Barragan are even higher than Grimmjow who scales to Ginjou and Hikone.

 

[AStaticVoid]

Iko is the strongest hollow at his full power which would be when he had his original name. I don’t see how Barragan could scale to him when it took the likes of Ichibei and Yama to defeat and seal him in the past.

Simply because that was not the Prime Ikomikidomoe who fought Young Yama and in the end was defeated by Oetsu and Ichibei, but a far weakened version of him.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

In this Wiki we have, in order of AP: CFYOW Grimmjow at High 6-A or higher with specific abilities, Ulquiorra at 6-A or higher with specific abilities, Starrk and Barragan at High 6-B or higher with specific abilities.
Reading the admissions of both Ikomikidomoe and Grimmjow himself it is possible to understand that he, even in his current post-timeskip state, is still weaker than Barragan. So, I believe it is due an upgrade for Barragan, Starrk and Ulquiorra. In fact, back to FKT Arc, we consider each of these stronger than Grimmjow, and Ulquiorra, also in this wiki, is the Espada in the highest tier during that Arc. Since CFYOW Grimmjow < Barragan, then CFYOW Grimmjow also < Starrk and Ulquiorra, because it is simply logical to consider CFYOW Grimmjow weaker than the likes equal/stronger/with equal/more reiatsu than Barragan himself [I would like to remind you that the ranking created by Aizen is based on the amount of reiryoku (= amount of spiritual energy)].

Few things,

Ulquiorra has no scaling to CFYOW Grimmjow. The scaling would go as follows based on what you provided: CFYOW Grimmjow < Barragan < Starrk < Res Yammy. We currently, scale SE Ulquiorra in his own bubble, as that is the best way to scale him due to vagueness and contentions surrounding how SE scales within the other Espada.

• Barragan has won all kinds of confrontations against Omaeda, Soi Fon and Hachigen. What defeated Barragan was Barragan's power itself. Hachi has done nothing but insert, via Kidou, Barragan's power into Barragan's body. Nothing more, nothing less.

Yeah honestly not many people scale to Barragan, except for Soifon's Bankai which as no anti-feats or scaling to other characters anyway, so Barragan doesn't cause any issues.

• For Starrk, there is the evergreen theory that he never used his true potential. Yes, this is very nice. But, in reality, during the clash between Shunsui and Lille, in TYBW, we discover that even Shunsui has not used his full potential against Starrk. I'm not talking about Bankai, I'm talking about other techniques of Shikai itself, the strongest ones, such as Duruma-san ga Koronda, Kageokuri, Yubikiri. So it is more than logical to assume that the Shunsui who fought Starrk is in the same tier of Shunsui who fought/stood up to Base Lille during TYBW.

For Starrk I don't think it causes any issues either. He scales to Shunsui, Shunsui scales with Lille, Vollstandig Robert Acutrone (we dont even have a profile for Colonel Sanders here), Tokinada (Tokinada literally shat own so many CFYOW captain tier fighters at once so checks out), (Byakuya and Yoruichi are stated to have similar reiatsu levels to Tokinada which is fine, they don't have any contradictory scaling in CFYOW cuz they barely do anything), then there's people like Aura, Ginjo, Hikone, blah blah top tiers to borderline god tiers who scale far above Grimmjow anyhow. So, this seems fine and has no contradictions with Starrk either.

Ulquiorra and Yammy

You say a lot of things with Ulquiorra and Yammy that blatantly go against a lot of what we accept and common sense. Frankly you touch on a lot of things that should have their own CRT (Yammy doesnt scale above the top 3, GRC < CO, Ulq scales above CFYOW Grimmjow).

Yammy is the strongest Espada, it's affirmed by Ichigo, it's repeated several times in the databooks, and is narratively consistent with how the Espada work. Him getting jobbed by Kenpachi and Byakuya doesn't mean much outside Kenny and Byakuya being that strong. I hate to be that guy, but there's literally no new evidence (nor do I ever think we will get any) to suggest Yammy isn't the strongest Espada.

Regarding Ulquiorra, not only is he never brought up in CFYOW, idk why you bring up his Arrancar Arc feats either. The Ulq section felt entirely unrelated to this thread. Furthermore, it's only stated CFYOW Grimmjow would lose to Espada ranked 2 (or higher), so there is literally 0 connection to Ulq in CFYOW. Regarding Segunda Etapa tho, that scales in a vacuum as its only feats are being stronger than Ulq's Res, but getting shit stomped by Full Hollow Ichigo. Also, due to the ambiguity of whether SE Ulq still follows the standard Espada power ranking (Aizen maybe didn't know about, but Ulq claimed that beating him doesn't gaurantee victory against the top 3, etc etc) it's been decided that the best course of action is just to scale him above his Res self and any DC feats he has.

Also, you're new so obviously you're unaware of this, but we just had a Gran Rey Cero thread where it was unanimously agreed upon that GRC is the strongest cero (making it above Cero Oscuras). The argument of "but why didn't they use it tho" isn't a valid argument. We know all Res Espada can fire "black ceros" (Cero Oscuras) but literally no one but Ulq does. Additionally, Grimmjow is the only Espada to fire a Gran Rey Cero in the manga. Like Yamamoto said he and the entire Gotei 13 were prepared to die fighting Aizen, but Yama didn't even whip out Bankai. Characters aren't obligated to use their strongest techniques all the time. Also, if you must have a possible answer for why Ulq doesn't use GRC allow me to supply a couple: we see with Grimmjow GRC has a decent charge time so maybe that wasn't worth it, also Lanza is seemingly SE Ulq's strongest attack which he can spam without cutting himself so why bother with GRC, also prior to Ichigo using Full Hollow Ulq was bullying him effortless aka no need to use GRC. I can go down the rabbit hole of characters not using the entire arsenal, I mean look at Naruto and Sasuke in Boruto lately, Naruto just spams regular rasengan and Sasuke just spams teleportation, it's not uncommon for characters to not make full use of their arsenal. However, we aren't making an exception for Ulq's CO scaling above his GRC for some random reason.

This is where we run into a bit of a contradiction: CFYOW Grimmjow < Espada 2 < Espada 0 ~ AA Byakuya < LAA Byakuya ~ Tsukishima ~ CFYOW Grimmjow (Tsukishima was only able to knick Grimmjow's hierro). Which brings me to the nature of Baraggan's ability, pure hax. Baraggan's respira works by aging, slowing down, and weakening everything it gets in contact with. This would make it so, as long as the AP gap isn't large enough where you reiatsu negg his Respira, he would be able to fight opponents far above his weight class.

This draws another conclusion that arises from an alternative interpretation of Ikomikidomoe's statement. Baraggan would not beat CFYOW Grimmjow because he has more AP, but rather Baraggan would beat CFYOW Grimmjow because unlike Aizen (which CFYOW goes out of their way to mention) CFYOW Grimmjow doesn't have the vast amount of reiatsu capable of negging Respira.

Simply put, Baraggan is not an AP fighter, never has been. Furthermore, we can just deduce that CFYOW Grimmjow doesn't have the vast "Aizen" levels of reiatsu capable of negging Respira, therefore Baraggan would still win (due to hax) against an opponent with more AP than him.

I think for the moment, it's best not to default to beating a character inherently meaning having more AP, and additionally Tsukishima's scaling in the manga contradicts this being an AP thing (manga takes precedence over novels as far as sources go).

Forgive me if I tread on already discussed grounds, but I don't have the time to read y'all's walls of text. Regardless, I have to disagree with all of the OPs proposals.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Also, I hate to say it, especially cuz it's very debby downer. However, a lot of people (a lot of staff I know too) are pretty burnt out on big Bleach CRTs. I'm not saying that means they're illegal to post lol, but I will say you will likely find it difficult to get the volume of staff input required for a rather large affecting CRT such as this one, for the time being. Hell this is a type of thread I'd love to have Damage (probably our most knowledgeable Bleach staff members who's active?) comment on, but iirc the man's a bit worn out on massive "high consequential" Bleach CRTs (which ngl so am I). I likely won't comment much more in this thread, nor do I see any info being brought up that'll make me change my opinion as stated at the end of my previous post. Good luck if you continue this endeavor of a thread.

 

[Loyd]

yeah unfortunate you weren't here like 6 months earlier? it was a golden age for bleach like 5 crts active a time + uni bleach upgrades, i voiced the same concern earlier to much burnout i don't think thrs gonna be alot of bleach activity like that till the anime drops or more news tbh.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I can say personally, I won't be back in full swing until around Christmas (to finally pump out that speed CRT with Dama). University and burnout got me like .....

 

[Loyd]

I can say personally, I won't be back in full swing until around Christmas (to finally pump out that speed CRT with Dama). University and burnout got me like .....

Stay safe buddy oh i think you drop this on the way out

 

[KingTempest]

Big ass thread for 3 people

 

[Kingcrim212]

Arc7kuroi makes sense to me.

 

[AStaticVoid]

Few things,

Ulquiorra has no scaling to CFYOW Grimmjow. The scaling would go as follows based on what you provided: CFYOW Grimmjow < Barragan < Starrk < Res Yammy. We currently, scale SE Ulquiorra in his own bubble, as that is the best way to scale him due to vagueness and contentions surrounding how SE scales within the other Espada.



Yeah honestly not many people scale to Barragan, except for Soifon's Bankai which as no anti-feats or scaling to other characters anyway, so Barragan doesn't cause any issues.


For Starrk I don't think it causes any issues either. He scales to Shunsui, Shunsui scales with Lille, Vollstandig Robert Acutrone (we dont even have a profile for Colonel Sanders here), Tokinada (Tokinada literally shat own so many CFYOW captain tier fighters at once so checks out), (Byakuya and Yoruichi are stated to have similar reiatsu levels to Tokinada which is fine, they don't have any contradictory scaling in CFYOW cuz they barely do anything), then there's people like Aura, Ginjo, Hikone, blah blah top tiers to borderline god tiers who scale far above Grimmjow anyhow. So, this seems fine and has no contradictions with Starrk either.


You say a lot of things with Ulquiorra and Yammy that blatantly go against a lot of what we accept and common sense. Frankly you touch on a lot of things that should have their own CRT (Yammy doesnt scale above the top 3, GRC < CO, Ulq scales above CFYOW Grimmjow).

Yammy is the strongest Espada, it's affirmed by Ichigo, it's repeated several times in the databooks, and is narratively consistent with how the Espada work. Him getting jobbed by Kenpachi and Byakuya doesn't mean much outside Kenny and Byakuya being that strong. I hate to be that guy, but there's literally no new evidence (nor do I ever think we will get any) to suggest Yammy isn't the strongest Espada.

Regarding Ulquiorra, not only is he never brought up in CFYOW, idk why you bring up his Arrancar Arc feats either. The Ulq section felt entirely unrelated to this thread. Furthermore, it's only stated CFYOW Grimmjow would lose to Espada ranked 2 (or higher), so there is literally 0 connection to Ulq in CFYOW. Regarding Segunda Etapa tho, that scales in a vacuum as its only feats are being stronger than Ulq's Res, but getting shit stomped by Full Hollow Ichigo. Also, due to the ambiguity of whether SE Ulq still follows the standard Espada power ranking (Aizen maybe didn't know about, but Ulq claimed that beating him doesn't gaurantee victory against the top 3, etc etc) it's been decided that the best course of action is just to scale him above his Res self and any DC feats he has.

Also, you're new so obviously you're unaware of this, but we just had a Gran Rey Cero thread where it was unanimously agreed upon that GRC is the strongest cero (making it above Cero Oscuras). The argument of "but why didn't they use it tho" isn't a valid argument. We know all Res Espada can fire "black ceros" (Cero Oscuras) but literally no one but Ulq does. Additionally, Grimmjow is the only Espada to fire a Gran Rey Cero in the manga. Like Yamamoto said he and the entire Gotei 13 were prepared to die fighting Aizen, but Yama didn't even whip out Bankai. Characters aren't obligated to use their strongest techniques all the time. Also, if you must have a possible answer for why Ulq doesn't use GRC allow me to supply a couple: we see with Grimmjow GRC has a decent charge time so maybe that wasn't worth it, also Lanza is seemingly SE Ulq's strongest attack which he can spam without cutting himself so why bother with GRC, also prior to Ichigo using Full Hollow Ulq was bullying him effortless aka no need to use GRC. I can go down the rabbit hole of characters not using the entire arsenal, I mean look at Naruto and Sasuke in Boruto lately, Naruto just spams regular rasengan and Sasuke just spams teleportation, it's not uncommon for characters to not make full use of their arsenal. However, we aren't making an exception for Ulq's CO scaling above his GRC for some random reason.

This is where we run into a bit of a contradiction: CFYOW Grimmjow < Espada 2 < Espada 0 ~ AA Byakuya < LAA Byakuya ~ Tsukishima ~ CFYOW Grimmjow (Tsukishima was only able to knick Grimmjow's hierro). Which brings me to the nature of Baraggan's ability, pure hax. Baraggan's respira works by aging, slowing down, and weakening everything it gets in contact with. This would make it so, as long as the AP gap isn't large enough where you reiatsu negg his Respira, he would be able to fight opponents far above his weight class.

This draws another conclusion that arises from an alternative interpretation of Ikomikidomoe's statement. Baraggan would not beat CFYOW Grimmjow because he has more AP, but rather Baraggan would beat CFYOW Grimmjow because unlike Aizen (which CFYOW goes out of their way to mention) CFYOW Grimmjow doesn't have the vast amount of reiatsu capable of negging Respira.

Simply put, Baraggan is not an AP fighter, never has been. Furthermore, we can just deduce that CFYOW Grimmjow doesn't have the vast "Aizen" levels of reiatsu capable of negging Respira, therefore Baraggan would still win (due to hax) against an opponent with more AP than him.

I think for the moment, it's best not to default to beating a character inherently meaning having more AP, and additionally Tsukishima's scaling in the manga contradicts this being an AP thing (manga takes precedence over novels as far as sources go).

Forgive me if I tread on already discussed grounds, but I don't have the time to read y'all's walls of text. Regardless, I have to disagree with all of the OPs proposals.

First of all I thank you for your reply, but above all for the ways in which you replied. Others were aggressive and went ahead with their points almost blindly, seeming not to even understand what they were writing.
Having said this, instead of answering point by point as I did previously, I summarize here a series of points that I believe it is necessary to include in the profiles of the different characters treated.

1. Ulquiorra. Regardless of whether he can scale from Grimmjow in CFYOW, which I understand in the way you explained it (since I didn't know how Ulquiorra's own tier was decided here), it is missing a key component in his profile: Lanza del Relampago. As I have said multiple times, that ability certainly showed feats that far exceed the combined feats and statements of GRC and CO. So it is, at a minimum, due to insert in its AP section, as the last term of its attack potency: "higher with Lanza del Relampago" or, much more likely, "far higher with Lanza del Relampago".
2. Barragan. Regardless of whether you implicitly include in Barragan's possible superiority the use of a technique that has never been mentioned in three volumes of light novels, what has been mentioned is Barragan's spiritual power, on a par with that of Ikomikidomoe and, moreover, I also have a statement from Hikone which refers to him/herself as an equal in strength to Ikomikidomoe itself. This leads only to one conclusion: it is Barragan's spiritual power that is on par with that of Ikomikidomoe and, consequently, superior to that of Grimmjow. So, I think that here too it would have a lot of sense to re-evaluate Barragan's tier itself, or at least make a specific reference to the fact that it is possibly superior to CFYOW Grimmjow. This could mean, add in his AP section, which basically determines his tier: "At least High 6-A, stated to have the same spiritual power of Ikomikidomoe" or "Possibly High 6-A, stated to have the same spiritual power of Ikomikidomoe". And, to be honest, I don't see how this can mess up the whole scaling chain.
3. Starrk. Here the speech is much simpler. In Aizen's ranking, Starrk is simply defined as having a higher reiryoku than Barragan's. So, if Barragan has a spiritual power equal to that of Ikomikidomoe (remember that it is a weakened version of him and not Prime Iko) and superior to that of CFYOW Grimmjow, then Starrk who has a spiritual power superior to that of Barragan, consequently has a spiritual power higher than that of CFYOW Grimmjow. Therefore, it is more than legitimate to rewrite its AP section with the words: "At least High 6-A, via scaling from Barragan" or "Possibily High 6-A, via scaling from Barragan".
4. Yammy. This is a point on which we have fossilized a lot for no clear reason. I said that I didn't feel like including him in the thread but that, at your discretion, you could have done it without any kind of problems. You are responding to this more or less irrelevant part as if I have stated that Yammy does not deserve to be here, which is not what I said at all. I simply left it up to you to rate Yammy himself, and since he is already in the High 6-A tier, I don't see how this could, once again, ruin the scaling chain.

I thank you again for the answer and the way you answer. I hope we will continue to evaluate at least the possibility of an Upgrade for Barragan and Starrk, because they literally deserve it by clear statements. And especially that forgotten abilities are included in the AP sections of Ulquiorra and Starrk's profiles (his Wolves stated to be much more powerful than Cero by Starrk himself).

 

[Sasukesolos]

Why wouldn’t this be interpreted as Grimmjow not becoming significantly more powerful from his first appearance throughout the tybw and the cfyow novel adaptation

 

[Theendzero13]

Why wouldn’t this be interpreted as Grimmjow not becoming significantly more powerful from his first appearance throughout the tybw and the cfyow novel adaptation

Because TYBW grimmjow scales to some of the sternritter , who the wiki rates as far above his hueco mundo version

 

[AStaticVoid]

Why wouldn’t this be interpreted as Grimmjow not becoming significantly more powerful from his first appearance throughout the tybw and the cfyow novel adaptation

Because in addition to being stated that he spent 23 months (17 between Arrancar Arc and TYBW, and 6 between TYBW and CFYOW) training and devouring hollows becoming more powerful, during CFYOW he faced and scales directly to individuals who fall into the High 6-A tier such as Ginjou, which would therefore legitimately make Grimmjow High 6-B incompatible and illogical against opponents of that level.

 

[Sasukesolos]

Because in addition to being stated that he spent 23 months (17 between Arrancar Arc and TYBW, and 6 between TYBW and CFYOW) training and devouring hollows becoming more powerful, during CFYOW he faced and scales directly to individuals who fall into the High 6-A tier such as Ginjou, which would therefore legitimately make Grimmjow High 6-B incompatible and illogical against opponents of that level.

I specifically said “ significantly “ I’m basically saying what dismisses the possibility that he didn’t grow , become strong enough to be considered barragon’s level let alone base aizen’s who out scales barragon the comparison made in the novel is already questionable the difference between the espada and aizen was already demonstrated in the primary canon.

Considering menos can peak consuming thousands of hollows they could literally consume thousands more and not gain anything. him training and devouring hollows is completely irrelevant. Though the scaling to Ginjou is interesting is it not stated that he can unleash a getsuga that rivals ichigo’s strongest getsuga?

Ginjou scales to full bring ichigo in which both have valid scaling that suggests there above (dangai) barragon has no such scaling it’s not my intention to derail the thread but it’s important and you did bring him up after all

 

[Sasukesolos]

Because TYBW grimmjow scales to some of the sternritter , who the wiki rates as far above his hueco mundo version

Yet the novel can be interpreted as grimmjow not being able to catch up to those who were above him within that very same arc

 

[AStaticVoid]

specifically said “ significantly “ I’m basically saying what dismisses the possibility that he didn’t grow , become strong enough to be considered barragon’s level let alone base aizen’s who out scales barragon the comparison made in the novel is already questionable the difference between the espada and aizen was already demonstrated in the primary canon

The bolded. I already answered it.

"4. Grimmjow lose to the likes of (Dictionary - "Likes: used with reference to a person or thing of the same kind as another." Text comprehension - In the context is most likely referred to their level of power) of Aizen OR Barragan. I prevent you from twist my words once again. Please, dont' say I'm saying Barragan and Aizen are equal. With basic text comprehension skill, it's easy understand here that Grimmjow would lose on being on the level of Barragan OR on the level of Aizen."

This literally doesn't make Barragan = Aizen and absolutely doesn't treat them as equal. If you understood this from the scans, then you probably misunderstood the meaning of the scan itself since nobody puts Aizen and Barragan on the same level.

Considering menos can peak consuming thousands of hollows they could literally consume thousands more and not gain anything. him training and devouring hollows is completely irrelevant. Though the scaling to Ginjou is interesting is it not stated that he can unleash a getsuga that rivals ichigo’s strongest getsuga?

The bolded. It actually was specified that he got stronger through that method. There are also two factors that enhance what is written: 1. Going to review Grimmjow's past, the Adjuchas who later became Fracciones of Grimmjow, said that they stopped growing, not that Grimmjow stopped, admitting that in fact they will consider Grimmjow as their King also because his evolution hadn't stopped there; 2. As the case of Nnoitra demonstrates, the Espada could move up and become stronger, climbing the previous ranking established by Aizen. Logically, they couldn't become stronger by doing nothing, but much more likely they would become through training or making use of methods such as hollow devouring.

Ginjou scales to full bring ichigo in which both have valid scaling that suggests there above (dangai) barragon has no such scaling it’s not my intention to derail the thread but it’s important and you did bring him up after all

Actually I don't have this valid scaling of FB Ichigo > Dangai Ichigo, indeed I would be very curious to see it since FB Ichigo has not fought with beings of the level of "God" Aizen (> Trascendent > Post Chrysalis > Chrysalis, the latter is a form already powerful enough to the point Isshin can't feel his reiatsu. Dangai Ichigo is powerful enough to the point Aizen can't feel his reiatsu), unless here we want to admit that FB Ichigo ~ Quilge Opie > "God" Aizen, which would be a lot of fun to see demonstrated using feats and relevant statements.
So, Grimmjow fought with Ginjou on par for a while before being interrupted, which put Ginjou ~ CFYOW Grimmjow. And then, Barragan is stated to be equal to (weakened) Ikomikidomoe, who's > CFYOW Grimmjow.

 

[Antvasima]

So what are the conclusions here so far?