BLEACH LOW 2C REMOVAL

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

No, you have to prove that at this point. If he's shown to affect entire space-time continuums, you need to show anti-feats that he didn't destroy all parts of it. Besides, that was literally the whole point of you making this thread, no? So go show proof.

This isn't how this works, because "Effecting entire space-time continuums" never proves the burden of proof in the first place. The first step to get Low 2-C IS to prove it goes across all of time in a timeline. The past, present AND future all getting effected. Simply saying "affected space-time continuums", which universes in a verse are already considered by default, is not enough.

Now, if you prove Yhwach's destruction was going across time in some fashion, like effecting the past or the future, Pain would then need to give counter evidence of neither being effected. But that burden of proof of the feat going across time hasn't been reached yet.

 

[Tarang123]

In fairness, this is already somewhat being applied. It's why we have cases of where Low 2-C was rejected specifically because of this, like Zeref's Neo Eclipse, which would only destroy a couple hundred years worth of space-time on a universal scale and was only granted 3-A at best (granted, this was before Neo Eclipse got downgraded because of it being a non-AP feat, but the idea still stands).

Issue with that one is that it was outright stated that he was only destroying a portion of it. It doesn't need to be stated that all parts of the space-time continuum need to be destroyed, past present, and future to be Low 2C. It needs to be proven that the past, present, and future aren't completely affected significantly for it to not qualify for tier 2. Simply put, simply throwing the word "standards" around isn't enough to actually disprove what we currently have for Bleach, and needs actual reasoning from the story to downgrade them. Of course, there could be some issues with what we currently have for the cosmology, but that's for another CRT

 

[Tarang123]

This isn't how this works, because "Effecting entire space-time continuums" never proves the burden of proof in the first place. The first step to get Low 2-C IS to prove it goes across all of time in a timeline. The past, present AND future all getting effected. Simply saying "affected space-time continuums", which universes in a verse are already considered by default, is not enough.

Now, if you prove Yhwach's destruction was going across time in some fashion, like effecting the past or the future, Pain would then need to give counter evidence of neither being effected. But that burden of proof of the feat going across time hasn't been reached yet.

Again, it's pretty simple logic. You're going to find two, maybe three verses that use the terms "past, present, and future" when it comes to significantly affecting a universal space-time continuum cause that's simply not something most fictions do. It doesn't need to be prove that much unless there's actual reason to believe that the fiction doesn't function that way (not sure if that came out correctly). If SK created the entire cosmology including universal-sized space-time continuums, that should be Low 2C unless there's more context that denies that. Yhwach undoing that would also be Low 2C unless, again, there's evidence against that such as issues with the cosmology or issues with how he did it.

The other thing I wanted to point out is that if Yhwach is literally undoing the entire cosmology of Bleach, wouldn't he anyways be affecting all of the time in its cosmology? Just a minor question, tho

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Issue with that one is that it was outright stated that he was only destroying a portion of it. It doesn't need to be stated that all parts of the space-time continuum need to be destroyed, past present, and future to be Low 2C.

Sure, Zeref's case goes the extra step of stating all of time isn't getting effected, but that doesn't mean the basic requirement wouldn't hold, because that isn't how time works. Time is the past, present and future, it makes up what a timeline is from start to finish. Everything there was, everything there is, and everything there ever will be. That is what a timeline is, not just one or 2 of the three parts.

Plus, Zeref isn't the only recent example. Alien X is getting his Low 2-C rating removed too for not meeting this.

It needs to be proven that the past, present, and future aren't completely affected significantly for it to not qualify for tier 2.

This is asking to prove a negative, instead of proving the positive, like we always do for burden of proof.

Some kind of evidence is needed to prove, or at bare minimum imply, that the destruction is going across time and isn't just effecting the worlds in a singular point of time, which would be single snapshots of them within their timelines.

Again, it's pretty simple logic. You're going to find two, maybe three verses that use the terms "past, present, and future" when it comes to significantly affecting a universal space-time continuum cause that's simply not something most fictions do.

Sadly, this is a non argument. Something being too hard to qualify for doesn't make it wrong (and your speaking to someone who used this exact card for another battle to change standards for something else).

It doesn't need to be prove that much unless there's actual reason to believe that the fiction doesn't function that way (not sure if that came out correctly).

You mean if the fictions timeline...doesn't act like ours? We generally assume most fictional verses worlds are based off our reality, especially ones based in earth like settings to resemble our universe. Naturally, a timeline is then also going to be assumed to function like ours. Consisting of the past, present and future and not just being one of the 3.

If SK created the entire cosmology including universal-sized space-time continuums, that should be Low 2C unless there's more context that denies that. Yhwach undoing that would also be Low 2C unless, again, there's evidence against that such as issues with the cosmology or issues with how he did it.

Again, this shifts the burden of proof of what needs to be reached to even first try qualifying for Low 2-C. Creating a universe sized world and slapping time into it isn't enough for Low 2-C. Creating the past, present and future, or destroying the past, present and future, is what reaches Low 2-C.

The other thing I wanted to point out is that if Yhwach is literally undoing the entire cosmology of Bleach, wouldn't he anyways be affecting all of the time in its cosmology? Just a minor question, tho

No, because from all we know off what he does, he's just undoing the singular snapshots of the cosmology. He's destroying, or merging, the Soul Society, WOTL, and Hueco Mundo in present time. But not destroying the past versions of the worlds, or the future versions of those worlds. The latter needs to be proven, or suggested, to be Low 2-C.

It also doesnt quite help that the SK "creating" the 3 worlds isn't in the sense that he's doing it from nothing, but just splitting them off from the old universe and into their own separate worlds.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

@ProfessorKukui4Life He created the Dangai from nothing and Garganta which is an entire other place removed from the normal space-time. Doesn't that mean the Dangai has it's own space-time continuum?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

@ProfessorKukui4Life He created the Dangai from nothing and Garganta which is an entire other place removed from the normal space-time. Doesn't that mean the Dangai has it's own space-time continuum?

Sure, but the real factor here thats important and the most actually relevant is if the SK created the past, present and future versions of the Dangai and Garganta all at once and didnt just create a singular snapshot of them in present time and let time do its normal business.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Sure, but the real factor here thats important and the most actually relevant is if the SK created the past, present and future versions of the Dangai and Garganta all at once and didnt just create a singular snapshot of them in present time and let time do its normal business.

This seems like an extreme over complication I've never once heard of. He created the space-time continuum for said location why do all these very specific things need to be stated?

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Sure, but the real factor here thats important and the most actually relevant is if the SK created the past, present and future versions of the Dangai and Garganta all at once and didnt just create a singular snapshot of them in present time and let time do its normal business.

If you want to downgrade a verse first change the tiering system. Its nowhere stated need to affect past, present and future. Creating a space time continuum is 4D feat. Also explain to me how do you create a Space time continuum? What do you consider a space time Continuum. So just stating Space time continuum is not enough?. You people want Kubo to come down and say. "Yo, Yhwach was about to nuke whole timeline which has past present and future, blah blah blah".

Its pretty clear possibly infinite futures exist in bleach cosmology.

 

[Tarang123]

Sure, Zeref's case goes the extra step of stating all of time isn't getting effected, but that doesn't mean the basic requirement wouldn't hold, because that isn't how time works. Time is the past, present and future, it makes up what a timeline is from start to finish. Everything there was, everything there is, and everything there ever will be. That is what a timeline is, not just one or 2 of the three parts.

Plus, Zeref isn't the only recent example. Alien X is getting his Low 2-C rating removed too for not meeting this.

Issue is, if you're affecting time and space on a univesal scale, it's usually seen as affecting all points in it. Of course, I might be wrong, and if I am I'll concede to this topic.

Sadly, this is a non argument. Something being too hard to qualify for doesn't make it wrong (and your speaking to someone who used this exact card for another battle to change standards for something else).

What I meant was that even verses that genuinely qualify for tier 2 don't usually use that kind of language.

Again, this shifts the burden of proof of what needs to be reached to even first try qualifying for Low 2-C. Creating a universe sized world and slapping time into it isn't enough for Low 2-C. Creating the past, present and future, or destroying the past, present and future, is what reaches Low 2-C.

This was more or less just that I was too lazy to go look at the original upgrade thread, so I actually don't know the full context behind the ratings. I wasn't trying to shift the burden or anything like that.

No, because from all we know off what he does, he's just undoing the singular snapshots of the cosmology. He's destroying, or merging, the Soul Society, WOTL, and Hueco Mundo in present time. But not destroying the past versions of the worlds, or the future versions of those worlds. The latter needs to be proven, or suggested, to be Low 2-C.

It also doesnt quite help that the SK "creating" the 3 worlds isn't in the sense that he's doing it from nothing, but just splitting them off from the old universe and into their own separate worlds.

If there's a scan for this, that would be appreciated. If said scans follow with what you're saying then yeah I agree with this downgrade

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

This seems like an extreme over complication I've never once heard of. He created the space-time continuum for said location why do all these very specific things need to be stated?

Well not specifically "stated" but implied somehow. And its like this because of the current standards needing the entirety of the timeline effected in order for Low 2-C to be gained.

That said, given the obviously massive amounts of confusion in this thread, a thread to actually discuss, clarify and add this standard to the main tiering page is what should be done. And frankly, is what should've been done well before this thread reached 5 pages. Could've saved a lot of time, and headaches, by doing this.

If you want to downgrade a verse first change the tiering system. Its nowhere stated need to affect past, present and future. Creating a space time continuum is 4D feat.

The prior quotes and blatant clarifications from staff, and the fact that other series are getting their Low 2-C ratings removed too, say otherwise. The tiering system has always been like this, hence the definition isn't changed (cited by Ultima). The way its being applied is what needs to be changed, and is where the confusion is coming from.

Also explain to me how do you create a Space time continuum? What do you consider a space time Continuum. So just stating Space time continuum is not enough?. You people want Kubo to come down and say. "Yo, Yhwach was about to nuke whole timeline which has past present and future, blah blah blah".

Don't get sarcastic with me simply clarifying how this site does things (even if not all of us agree). This is simply how the standards work for this. Effecting all of a timeline, across the past, present and future, is needed to be proven for Low 2-C. Stated, shown, implied, whatever you can get to meet this. Then Low 2-C can be brought to the table.

Issue is, if you're affecting time and space on a univesal scale, it's usually seen as affecting all points in it. Of course, I might be wrong, and if I am I'll concede to this topic.

That's the general misconception that most of us, until now, have viewed the Low 2-C requirements. But now with recent clarifications, this isn't how Low 2-C gets reached anymore. Effecting space-time on a universal scale would only mean effecting one singular snapshot out of the infinite snapshots within one timeline, which is at the most 3-A.

However, like I told Sigurd above, someone here absolutely should have made a thread about this to get more clarification and discussion on the standard, and getting it added to the main explanation page of the tiering system. A lot of time and headaches throughout this thread would've been saved if someone did that.

What I meant was that even verses that genuinely qualify for tier 2 don't usually use that kind of language.

Oh. Well from that vein, I agree, but statements of course are not the only form of evidence. And definitely not the gold standard. Anything that states, shows, or implies time from other or all points getting effected would most certainly be helpful.

But personally speaking, honestly, a thread to get more staff analyzation and a full concrete discussion on this whole matter is the most beneficial thing to do at this point so we can kill the confusions once and for all.

 

[KingTempest]

If you want to downgrade a verse first change the tiering system. Its nowhere stated need to affect past, present and future.

Did you ignore.

EVERYTHING I SAID???

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

I don't know what the hell is going on here but.

Time = Past, present and future. Thats basic english comprehension.

So affecting a universal space-time continuums is solid low2C.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Did you ignore.

EVERYTHING I SAID???

Nah bro. I meant I understand what you meant. But Pain and kukui not making sense.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

I don't know what the hell is going on here but.

Time = Past, present and future. Thats basic english comprehension.

So affecting a universal space-time continuums is solid low2C.

Dangai has its own past present and future. Its a space with torrent layers of time. Which is created by SK. Yhwach scales to SK.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Dangai has its own past present and future. Its a space with torrent layers of time. Which is created by SK. Yhwach scales to SK.

Low2C it is then.
I know Dangai is big enough to spatially encompass HW and SS together as seen in Bleach Movie 1.

So its not even a pocket dimension...its atleast double size as normal universe.
On top of which space-time. Looks like solid low2C to me.

 

[Teezar]

I don't know what the hell is going on here but.

Time = Past, present and future. Thats basic english comprehension.

So affecting a universal space-time continuums is solid low2C.

Almost as if people forgot what the meaning of time yes when I mentioned this above.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Almost as if people forgot what the meaning of time yes when I mentioned this above.

What vague vs wiki universal standards does to a mofo. Smfh

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Low2C it is then.
I know Dangai is big enough to spatially encompass HW and SS together as seen in Bleach Movie 1.

So its not even a pocket dimension...its atleast double size as normal universe.
On top of which space-time. Looks like solid low2C to me.

Thanks . Also for proof Ichigo team thrown back to 7 days past and Isshin states Cleaner can throw back people centuries past. Dangai Ichigo is another example.

 

[Teezar]

A universe is a space-time continuum yes.
destruction of a universe = 3A,yes.
destruction of a space-time continuum = low 2-C, yes as it's literally stated spacetime.
And we all ******* know what time is.

And this repeated statement and which you need to see statement of past,present and future seems ******** to me. Like almost no verse mentions this after a universe's destruction lmao.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

And this repeated statement and which you need to see statement of past,present and future seems ******** to me. Like almost no verse mentions this after a universe's destruction lmao.

Like
Time by its very definition means a continuous preogress of events from past to future.

No further explanation is needed for low2C when you destroy time itself.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Dangai has its own past present and future. Its a space with torrent layers of time. Which is created by SK. Yhwach scales to SK.

Created by the SK and created all at once by the SK are 2 different things. You need to prove all points in time were created at once to get Low 2-C.

I don't know what the hell is going on here but.

Time = Past, present and future. Thats basic english comprehension.

So affecting a universal space-time continuums is solid low2C.

Correction. Effecting ALL of the universal space time is solid Low 2-C. Past, Present AND Future and nothing less than this.

Thanks . Also for proof Ichigo team thrown back to 7 days past and Isshin states Cleaner can throw back people centuries past. Dangai Ichigo is another example.

Also, to clarify, this is technically not that good of an example. The Dangai and the cleaner throws people to different points in the Soul Society, not within the Dangai itself. Ichigo's team was blown back 7 days to a past point in the soul society. Not a past point in the Dangai. Same deal with Isshins statement.

Granted, this doesnt matter that much. Dangai is a separate space-time, but all of the present, past and future from it needs to be effected at once to be Low 2-C.

A universe is a space-time continuum yes.
destruction of a universe = 3A,yes.
destruction of a space-time continuum = low 2-C, yes as it's literally stated spacetime.

Space-time =/= ALL of time. This has been repeated verbatim to death here. All of time being effected is whats Low 2-C. Not just space-time in a singular point.

And this repeated statement and which you need to see statement of past,present and future seems ******** to me. Like almost no verse mentions this after a universe's destruction lmao.

Well, that is what the current standards are. Make a thread to contest this or clarify it more if you say otherwise.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Correction. Effecting ALL of the universal space time is solid Low 2-C. Past, Present AND Future and nothing less than this.

Space-time =/= ALL of time. This has been repeated verbatim to death here. All of time being effected is whats Low 2-C. Not just space-time in a singular point.

Show me where this is stated.
This is first time I am hearing this.
Space-time by default is entirety of timeline.

What you are saying is tantamount to Human =/= Homo Sapien or Mango =/= Mangifera Indica.

Dude Space-time, timeline, past-present and future mean the same thing.

When you affect an entity, you affect entirety of it by default. If you are assuming otherwise burdern of proof is on you that someone did not affect entirety of time and only few sections of it.

 

[Deadguy]

It's funny when you think about it because Low 2-C is the only tier where you need direct statements of effecting the past,the present and the future altogether but the rest of tier 2 gets their rating from just simply effecting multiple universes simultaneously

 

[PrinceofPein]

I feel like I am talking to walls at this point, I will definitely remake this thread as staffs only I can't be arguing with people that thinks affecting space-time means affecting all of time, when all universe and dimension that changes occurs in is a space time by default,
And literally no one has even brought proof that yhwach was affecting the past timelines and future timelines or has even brought it was implied.
And if someone says dangai is 4D one more time I'd report you for stonewalling, for the last ******* time dangai is just a bigger 3D space, your room is not 4D cause it can contain you a 3D being and yes your room has time too and you also have time since changes occurs in you.
And the dangai experiencing slower time does not mean 4D too, mosquitoes experience slower time too they are not 4D
And yes time flows in a single direction in bleach
My recommendation is for you guys to pick a physics textbook and stop reading any post you see online.

And yes the bleach universe is a low2C construct, all universe is a low 2C construct.
What makes them low2C is cause they have a past and a future, but now yhwach destruction of the universe was not affecting the past or future, so yes that's is that.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Show me where this is stated.
This is first time I am hearing this.
Space-time by default is entirety of timeline.

It isn't. This is the first time your hearing this because the standards for this were recently changed in how they're applied.

Where its been stated has already been brought up. Confirmed by Ultima and the FAQ's of the tiering system that Pain, King and others pointed out here earlier.

By the way, since a bunch of people both here and outside of the wiki expressed some confusion as to what exactly this thread's proposal is, I'll say this just for clarity's sake: We are not changing the actual definition of Low 2-C, just applying some stricter standards so characters have to meet the actual requirement to qualify for it, that being destroying all of spacetime, and thus the entire universe across past, present and future. So, if you destroy the universe, but there is no evidence that it was destroyed across past and future, then you are not Low 2-C.

And other series are getting their Low 2-C ratings removed in tandem with this. Alien X just got downgraded now because of this.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Space-time by default is entirety of timeline.

No it is the entirety of 3D space and 1D time
Space time by default is any space where changes(time) occurs. Time.is just the unit to measure change
Space time continuum by default tho means past, present and future. So that's the difference, what is required for low 2C is affecting or destroying the past, present and future of a universe sized construct or bigger

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Heres the thread where Ultima said that btw, which specifically addresses the whole timeline requirement.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

I hope someone explain to pain and kukui about why possible 2C rating is given to Yhwach Instead of 2C.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Heres the thread where Ultima said that btw, which specifically addresses the whole timeline requirement.

Yhwach was destroying three universal sized realms and creating a new universe. So he needs to destroy all realms past present and future. And a new timeline would be created for new universe . Also you know Yhwach is given possible 2C rating not 2C.

 

[PrinceofPein]

I hope someone explain to pain and kukui about why possible 2C rating is given to Yhwach Instead of 2C.

I hope you stop stonewalling and understand the tiering system

Yhwach was destroying three universal sized realms and creating a new universe. So he needs to destroy all realms past present and future. And a new timeline would be created for new universe . Also you know Yhwach was given possible 2C rating not 2C.

Yes this is High 3A by default not tier 2

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Yhwach was destroying three universal sized realms and creating a new universe. So he needs to destroy all realms past present and future.

This...is literally just ignoring the time requirements and jumping to assume he's destroying the whole entirety of the timelines. You need to prove he did that.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

And if someone says dangai is 4D one more time I'd report you for stonewalling, for the last ******* time dangai is just a bigger 3D space, your room is not 4D cause it can contain you a 3D being and yes your room has time too and you also have time since changes occurs in you.

No it is the entirety of 3D space and 1D time
Space time by default is any space where changes(time) occurs. Time.is just the unit to measure change
Space time continuum by default tho means past, present and future. So that's the difference, what is required for low 2C is affecting or destroying the past, present and future of a universe sized construct or bigger

That's a completely misinterpreting time.
Time doesn't exist inside 3D, its that 3D forms a simgle instance of time.
Time by definition on this site is set/collection of all instants of space which constitutes it.

So the Room you speak of doesn't contain time in it. It only forms a single instant of time.

Dangai is reference to whole space-time. Not a single spatial frame.
But the entire collection of it.

This is same idiocy as 3D multiverse.

Heres the thread where Ultima said that btw, which specifically addresses the whole timeline requirement.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/current-standards-of-spacetime.126243/

Also what Ultima said debunks your own point. Singular instant in space-time(time) is only space and matter in it. Thats why spatial destruction is 3A.

Time is collection of entire spatial instants/frames.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

This...is literally just ignoring the time requirements and jumping to assume he's destroying the whole entirety of the timelines. You need to prove he did that.

Can you prove he didn't. You are aslo jumping to conclusions that he didn't. Again you understand what's possible means right.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

https://vsbattles.com/threads/current-standards-of-spacetime.126243/

Also what Ultima said debunks your own point. Singular instant in space-time(time) is only space and matter in it. Thats why spatial destruction is 3A.

Time is collection of entire spatial instants/frames.

Um, where on here did he say this? He didnt even reply to this thread.

 

[Reio35]

Created by the SK and created all at once by the SK are 2 different things. You need to prove all points in time were created at once to get Low 2-C.


Correction. Effecting ALL of the universal space time is solid Low 2-C. Past, Present AND Future and nothing less than this.

Also, to clarify, this is technically not that good of an example. The Dangai and the cleaner throws people to different points in the Soul Society, not within the Dangai itself. Ichigo's team was blown back 7 days to a past point in the soul society. Not a past point in the Dangai. Same deal with Isshins statement.

Granted, this doesnt matter that much. Dangai is a separate space-time, but all of the present, past and future from it needs to be effected at once to be Low 2-C.

Space-time =/= ALL of time. This has been repeated verbatim to death here. All of time being effected is whats Low 2-C. Not just space-time in a singular point.

Well, that is what the current standards are. Make a thread to contest this or clarify it more if you say otherwise.

He didn't make a snapshot. The original universe had one time flow or timeline. Soul King then create 2 new space-times with a different time flows the dangai and the garganta.. These different time flows did not exist prior so he had to have create all of space-time for each realm.

 

[Reio35]

No it is the entirety of 3D space and 1D time
Space time by default is any space where changes(time) occurs. Time.is just the unit to measure change
Space time continuum by default tho means past, present and future. So that's the difference, what is required for low 2C is affecting or destroying the past, present and future of a universe sized construct or bigger

space-time and space-time continuum are literally the samething.Both just means a 4D construct of any size. Vs wiki just requires said space-time to be universal in size.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Um, where on here did he say this? He didnt even reply to this thread.

I was referring to thread you posted.

Not mine.
The link I showed is recent attempt at downgrading space-time to 3D, saying space-time =/= timeline or all time.

DT completely debunked it.

There's rule that prevents saying otherwise.
So standards are Bleach in favour not otherwise.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

space-time and space-time continuum are literally the samething.Both just means a 4D construct of any size. Vs wiki just requires said space-time to be universal in size.

Accuracy².
Exacto.

 

[BleachHollow]

In my Opinion The whole discussion if taking so long and I hope it goes no where cause 1- many bleach knowledge people aren't here because of college or other things and 2- I believe as other Bleach people have said there is a well refined blog of cosmology coming up soon together with many other revisions. Even though I don't feel good bringing other verses into the discussion I remember not long ago seeing over 4 threads of Dragon Ball Zeno downgrades being closed because there was no proper cosmology blog. Prior to this there was still discussion if destruction of a Space time or even a timeline was destroying the past/present/future. We shouldn't rush on this discussion since it seems great confusion about some rules of scaling.

 

[Hasty12345]

I stg I've read the same argument with the same response now for 5 pages.... This just needs to be closed and made into a staff thread at this point.