BLEACH LOW 2C REMOVAL

[EldemadeDityjon]

dude..

the indefinite continued progress of existence and events in the past, present, and future regarded as a whole.

^ Thats what time is. If you are arguing he was destroying or affecting that, then you would need to prove that. As far as I know, the destruction was only spatial.
I

Where does it states only Spatial?.

 

[LeSupremeKing1]

Where does it states only Spatial?.

That's all i've seen, from the statements and scans shown to me. I haven't seen anything indicating temporal destruction.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

I don't have a problem with the realm having time in it, thats fine.

What I do have a problem with is that nothing implies time was being destroyed, only space. Thats why every universe busting feat isn't always low 2-c, because you need something indicating time was being destroyed as well, not just the universe being spatially destroyed.

Not really.
Let me give an example. Say if you eat a burger....the default assumption is that you ate the entire thing. Not that you only ate one bite or only the buns. Because burger is 2 buns + whatever is inside it.

If you want 3A for Dangai....then proof needs to be given that only spatial aspect of Dangai was destroyed and temporal was left intact.

Cuz by default when Dangai destruction is mentioned it would involve destruction of all aspects associated with it. You cannot assume partial destruction without any proof.

 

[LeSupremeKing1]

Not really.
Let me give an example. Say if you eat a burger....the default assumption is that you ate the entire thing. Not that you only ate one bite or only the buns. Because burger is 2 buns + whatever is inside it.

Part of the burger's existence is infinite snapshots across time as well. So if I eat a burger, does that mean i'm automatically eating it spatially and temporally? No, unless something indicates temporal destruction.

If you want 3A for Dangai....then proof needs to be given that only spatial aspect of Dangai was destroyed and temporal was left intact.

Nah I think I'll take an agnostic/neutral stance, as I've been doing the entire thead. I don't think anything indicates temporal destruction, and due to that and due to nobody being able to present evidence supporting that, the feat shouldn't be low 2-c.

Cuz by default when Dangai destruction is mentioned it would involve destruction of all aspects associated with it. You cannot assume partial destruction without any proof.

Not necessarily, destruction doesn't default to spatial-temporal destruction if we have no further context, especially on this wiki. For example if I destroy a house, does that automatically mean I destroyed it past, present and future? Or if I crush an apple, it was destroyed past, present, and future?

No that's ridiculous, what you are suggesting is moving all uni busting feats into low 2-c unless its proved time was not affected? Nice reverse burden of proof.

Its the exact reason why battle of the gods in dragon ball doesn't hit low 2-c despite numerous statements saying the whole thing was gonna be destroyed.
And is also the reason that as far as I've seen, not a single staff member agreed with low 2-c bleach on this thread.

 

[YukaSama4]

And is also the reason that as far as I've seen, not a single staff member agreed with low 2-c bleach on this thread.

Only 2 staff have come so far, one agreed and one disagreed

 

[AKUTO123]

I was planning a long post before but I realize it is not needed as this is actually pretty straightforward, on the bleach God tiers profiles we have this:


The thing is the current low 2c standard requires you to affect time also i.e. Past, present and future, to qualify for low 2c, which there is no instance of such in bleach, so the low 2c should be removed from their profiles and the rating should just be


This should be civil, it's nothing too hard

When was this accepted? The low 2C of almost all series will be affected by this. As +, the reio will still be low 2C because he is the one who created the time.

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

dangai literal special aspect is how time there is too dense how does mentioning destroying all aspect of it not include that wtf

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Part of the burger's existence is infinite snapshots across time as well. So if I eat a burger, does that mean i'm automatically eating it spatially and temporally? No, unless something indicates temporal destruction.

Then you didn't understand my equivalence the way I wanted. I never associate burger with all its versions accross time.
Burger=/=Collective Set of all burger accross past, present and future.
Burger is a singular instant deal.

Contrarily Dangai is identified as space-time, thus its destruction is low2C.

Nah I think I'll take an agnostic/neutral stance, as I've been doing the entire thead. I don't think anything indicates temporal destruction, and due to that and due to nobody being able to present evidence supporting that, the feat shouldn't be low 2-c.

Okay. No problems. I respect that even though I personally wouldn't agree with it.

Not necessarily, destruction doesn't default to spatial-temporal destruction if we have no further context, especially on this wiki. For example if I destroy a house, does that automatically mean I destroyed it past, present and future? Or if I crush an apple, it was destroyed past, present, and future?

The apple in the past is not same as apple in the present and it will change as it progresses into future. It will continue to ripen untill it rots.

So apple isn't the set of all apples accross space-times.

No that's ridiculous, what you are suggesting is moving all uni busting feats into low 2-c unless its proved time was not affected? Nice reverse burden of proof.

It all depends on how word universe is used in that particular fiction. Zamasu made a thread about it. It all depends on verse.

If particular fiction depicts universe as space-time...then its destruction is low2C.

If fiction depicts universe as 3A then destruction is 3A....unless past, present and future versions of said universe are also affected...im which case its low2C.

Its the exact reason why battle of the gods in dragon ball doesn't hit low 2-c despite numerous statements saying the whole thing was gonna be destroyed.
And is also the reason that as far as I've seen, not a single staff member agreed with low 2-c bleach on this thread.

Ehh with how contentious DB ratings are and how wild the user interpret it and how differently the mods see it as. I wouldn't use it as an example.

I personally put BoG as 2C without standards, with standards as low2C. So it clear I don't agree with it.

Also its case can be a bit different. Afaik only everything inside it was mentioned to be destroyed...as it leave the universe empty...atleast thats what the mods accepted.

If you want to discuss DB, come to my wall. We'd rather not derail.

 

[AKUTO123]

First, yhwach would bring back the previous universe and destroy structures that weren't in the previous universe. garganta, dangai etc. that is, it would also destroy timelines that did not belong to the previous universe. Since garganta contains a 4D structure, it would already be 4D, so if the low 2C of bleach is to be removed, it should be increased to 2C instead.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

That's all i've seen, from the statements and scans shown to me. I haven't seen anything indicating temporal destruction.

No, just say you haven't read BLEACH.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

I don't know what the hell is going on here but.

Time = Past, present and future. Thats basic english comprehension.

So affecting a universal space-time continuums is solid low2C.

Yes both SS and WL has different timelines parallel to each other. SK created them.

Before Soul Society and Human World were created there was a different timeline.

Ichigo team thrown back to 7 days past of SS timeline.

Yhwach was recreating the primordial world. So he definitely needs to destroy Both timelines of SS and WL.

 

[AKUTO123]

Anyone who reads Bleach knows that in order for yhwach to fulfill his purpose, he must destroy all timelines.

 

[LeSupremeKing1]

Then you didn't understand my equivalence the way I wanted. I never associate burger with all its versions accross time.
Burger=/=Collective Set of all burger accross past, present and future.
Burger is a singular instant deal.

It is, a burger exists across the past, present, and future. Literally any object that exists in a plane with time has a past present and future.
If your analogy removes this aspect, then its a false analogy, and doesn't hold any weight.

The apple in the past is not same as apple in the present and it will change as it progresses into future. It will continue to ripen untill it rots.

So apple isn't the set of all apples accross space-times.

Mhm thats what time is, the progression of existence. But regardless if you are destroying an apple, you should be destroying it temporally, across infinite snapshots of its existence. Does that scale anyone to high 3-a or low 2-c? No. Why? Because we don't assume destroying an apple or a house automatically meaning its temporal destruction as well.

It all depends on how word universe is used in that particular fiction. Zamasu made a thread about it. It all depends on verse.

If particular fiction depicts universe as space-time...then its destruction is low2C.

All universes are space-time, I would find it hard to find a universe in fiction with no time at all.

But we don't assume that destroying a universe gets you to low 2-c, or above 3-a, unless proven otherwise because we need evidence of temporal destruction.
Which is why they specify on low 2-c the destruction of both space and time, and why 3-a and high 3-a says it doesn't include the destruction of time.

If fiction depicts universe as 3A then destruction is 3A....unless past, present and future versions of said universe are also affected...im which case its low2C.

Again almost every universe in fiction is low 2-c. However not every universe busting feat in fiction is low 2-c, not because of the cosmology not being treated as such, but because evidence supporting temporal destruction needs to be present, which you literally agreed with.

And since there is no evidence of temporal destruction here, the feat is not low 2-c, its that simple.

Ehh with how contentious DB ratings are and how wild the user interpret it and how differently the mods see it as. I wouldn't use it as an example.

I personally put BoG as 2C without standards, with standards as low2C. So it clear I don't agree with it.

Its a perfect example of how "destroying the entire universe" is not automatically seen as low 2-c on this wiki by the mods.
Even if you don't agree with it.

Unless you are going to present to me something you haven't said before, or present new evidence to me, I'd prefer if i wasn't bothered anymore

 

[LeSupremeKing1]

No, just say you haven't read BLEACH.

Because i'm asking for evidence supporting temporal destruction... I haven't read bleach? Therefore my opinion is invalid? What has this wiki come to..

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

It is, a burger exists across the past, present, and future. Literally any object that exists in a plane with time has a past present and future

"A burger". A burger does doesn't exist accross past present and future. It doesn't have temporal Omnipresence. Its case isn't like Solaris.
Nor is a burger a collective set of all its versions accross all time.
Burger = element, not set.

Mhm thats what time is, the progression of existence. But regardless if you are destroying an apple, you should be destroying it temporally, across infinite snapshots of its existence. Does that scale anyone to high 3-a or low 2-c? No. Why? Because we don't assume destroying an apple or a house automatically meaning its temporal destruction as well.

I think one example is enough. Lets stick with burger. Or lets take apple. No need for both.

All universes are space-time, I would find it hard to find a universe in fiction with no time at all.

But we don't assume that destroying a universe gets you to low 2-c, or above 3-a, unless proven otherwise because we need evidence of temporal destruction.
Which is why they specify on low 2-c the destruction of both space and time, and why 3-a and high 3-a says it doesn't include the destruction of time.

In real life yes. In an ideal world also yes.
But this is reality, so truths are harsher. A CRT was made by Zamasu Chan to make what you just said a default case i.e Universe = low2C. But it was completely rejected.

We currently have a policy to to treat "universe" case by case, not assume low2C. Thus default assumption is 3A.

Unless you are going to present to me something you haven't said before, or present

Well I already typed my comment before seeing this, so if I can convince you then good, otherwise you can put a disagree vote and unwatch. I won't bother you after this.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Because i'm asking for evidence supporting temporal destruction... I haven't read bleach? Therefore my opinion is invalid? What has this wiki come to..

First of all Yhwach doesn't even need to destroy cosmology. We already have a reliable source statement for Yhwach >~ SK.

Pretty sure that's enough to make Yhwach 2C.

One more thing SK should be upgraded to low Multi for creating more than two universes with separate timelines.

Its funny everytime Bleach needs 1000 evidence to prove something but other Verses gets upgraded without any validation.

Also downgrade proposal party is only using assumption not actually proof.

Show me a scan where he stated he was only destroying 3D space. I hope you people understand what's possible 2C means. Its just possible not exactly 2C.

How would a timeline exist without a space. Destroying a universe would destroy the timeline it's a common knowledge.

 

[LeSupremeKing1]

First of all Yhwach doesn't even need to destroy cosmology. We already have a reliable source statement for Yhwach >~ SK.

Good, because I was only talking about the feat attempting to scale Yhwach to low 2-c.

Pretty sure that's enough to make Yhwach 2C.

One more thing SK should be upgraded to low Multi for creating more than two universes with separate timelines.

Then make a crt for it lmao, we are here discussing one feat, and you are bringing in a completely different feat and derailing the thead.

Its funny everytime Bleach needs 1000 evidence to prove something but other Verses gets upgraded without any validation.

You clearly haven't seen the way the wiki is treating dragon ball.

Also downgrade proposal party is only using assumption not actually proof.

Downgrade isn't assuming anything. All we are saying is that there is no evidence that there was temporal destruction for the feat in question, therefore theres no reason he should've been given low 2-c.

Show me a scan where he stated he was only destroying 3D space. I hope you people understand what's possible 2C means. Its just possible not exactly 2C.

Shifting the burden of proof? If you want his low 2-c rating then you are obligated to prove it, I don't have the burden to prove that, especially if I am taking the neutral stance. And I don't think possibly should be the case if it isn't even suggested temporal destruction may be included.

How would a timeline exist without a space. Destroying a universe would destroy the timeline it's a common knowledge.

Destroying space, and then time not existing as a consequent doesn't scale you to low 2-c. Only directly destroying both scales you there.

Like I said to the other guy, please don't bother me unless new evidence comes into light. I already expressed that I agree with the OP, and that I don't think enough evidence is there for low 2-c bleach.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Before I close this mess of a thread. I'm just going to put my thoughts down.

1. The Bleach Cosmology is Tier 2. The OP, as far as I'm concerned wasn't trying to deny this.

2. Space-time is generally referred to for the Space-time continuum which by default for our standards include the past, present, and future.

3. The OP is asking not for evidence of the Bleach cosmology being Tier 2. Their asking for evidence that suggests Yhwach was going to also destroy the entire Space-time continuum (past, present, and future)

4. The Bleach supports are using the fact that the cosmology is Tier 2 as evidence because Yhwach was going to undo everything the Soul King did which was the Tier 2 cosmology.

5. However, the OP doesn't care for such evidence and wants definitive proof that Yhwach was effecting the entire Space-time continuum. Proof that is not simply based of the cosmology being tier 2 because he'd only need to be 3-A to get the job done in some manner.

6. This lead to the repeated arguments revolving around the definition of how we treat Space-time/Space-time continuum. As well as bringing up other verses who don't have said evidence.

7. What the OP doesn't understand is that the Low 2-C rating is based of the possibility Yhwach was going to effect the Space-time continuum because he wanted to undo everything the Soul King did which is the Tier 2 Cosmology. This is why it's a possible Tier 2 rating because there is no direct showing/statement that Yhwach was going to destroy the entire Space-time continuum (past, present, and future) just the possibility based of the fact of what his intentions were.

What needs to be done?

Absolutely nothing! This thread has devolved into madness all because of a misconception and should be closed. The OP is trying to remove something do to lack of evidence. However it being only a "possible Tier 2" do to lack of solid evidence. The OP is basically trying to remove it in general.

Here's what I propose. The OP makes a new thread (which seems to be the plan) and actually write a detailed response that they want the "possible Low 2-C" rating removed because the lack of solid evidence for Yhwach destroying the entire Space-time continuum. As for the Bleach supports, do not bring up the cosmology scale as it's not being argued that Bleach doesn't have a Tier 2 cosmology, it's being argued that Yhwach wasn't effected the entirety of the timeline.

So I'm closing this. The OP can make a new thread when ready, this one belongs in the trash.