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Alien X AP Revision (Authorized Users Only)

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Firestorm808

Firestorm808

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This thread is a continuation of the following thread: https://vsbattles.com/threads/alien-x-3-a-downgrade.123447

Due to the high volatility of the discussion thread, it will be continued here with limited interruption. We ask that any standard users contact the mods if they wish to contribute to the thread.

The events in the show:
  1. Ben and Rook travel to before their universe and timeline were created.
  2. This place is a timeless void, established by being before the timeline was created, other statements, and the inability to use time manipulation.
  3. Maltruant is attempting to use his own Annihilargh to create a universe and its time in his image.
  4. The Contumelia created an Extra-Dimensional field to protect them from the device's release of energy. They consider it impossible to breach the field.
  5. Alien X DNA is able to breach the Extra-Dimensional field.
Abridged Low 2-C Argument:
  • The Annihilargh's energy release is Low 2-C as per our Tiering System of explicitly creating a universe and its time.
  • The Annihilargh cannot be 3-A because as per our Tiering System, 3-A specifically says that it "does not involve the destruction and/or creation of space-time."
  • The Annihilargh cannot be High 3-A because, as per our Tiering System, High 3-A does not account for any higher dimensions or time.
  • The Contulemia are familiar with and deal with the universe and time creating energies numerous times. With this prior knowledge, they created the Extra-Dimensional field to protect themselves from such energies.
    • They would not create an Extra-Dimensional field if they only needed to protect against 3-D energy. An Extra-Dimensional Field would be built to protect against Extra-Dimensional Energy. We know that the Annihilargh creates the universe and its time, which is 4 dimensions of energy including time being released, fitting the Extra-Dimensional description.
    • The Contumelia deal with Low 2-C energies all the time. They are aware of Universal 4-Dimensional / Low 2-C energy releases. They know the raw dimensional energy concentration being used. They wouldn't call the field impossible to breach if they just had to take the same energy that they always deal with and modify it into a beam or something.
    • If they say that it is impossible to breach the field, then to their knowledge, nothing at the Annihilargh's level of energy and below can breach the field. Therefore, anything that is at least Low 2-C or above would be able to breach the Extra-Dimensional Field.
  • Because Alien X DNA was able to breach the "impossible to breach" Extra-Dimensional field created by beings who deal with Low 2-C energy all the time, Alien X should be At least Low 2-C.
Below, we'll have the other side lay out their argument, and we can continue from there.
 
So, this thread will have to wait some time. There are some wording choices on the tiering that need to be fixed first, and second we never decided if characters that are "[X number] dimensional" should have the ability of Higher-Dimensional Existence, which we currently do (but won't in the future, really). So I'll deal with both matters, the latter will have to set up standards that might take a while, and with all that in hand we should start this thread.
 
Firestorm808 said:
Abridged Low 2-C Argument:
  • The Annihilargh's energy release is Low 2-C as per our Tiering System of explicitly creating a universe and its time.
  • The Annihilargh cannot be 3-A because as per our Tiering System, 3-A specifically says that it "does not involve the destruction and/or creation of space-time."
  • The Annihilargh cannot be High 3-A because, as per our Tiering System, High 3-A does not account for any higher dimensions or time.
Click to expand...
Not something I have an issue with anymore as this is likely a world line. That's why I proposed low 2-C creation. As for the destruction, you'll see my problems with that soon, so keep that in mind.
Firestorm808 said:
  • The Contulemia are familiar with and deal with the universe and time creating energies numerous times. With this prior knowledge, they created the Extra-Dimensional field to protect themselves from such energies.
    • They would not create an Extra-Dimensional field if they only needed to protect against 3-D energy. An Extra-Dimensional Field would be built to protect against Extra-Dimensional Energy. We know that the Annihilargh creates the universe and its time, which is 4 dimensions of energy including time being released, fitting the Extra-Dimensional description.
    • The Contumelia deal with Low 2-C energies all the time. They are aware of Universal 4-Dimensional / Low 2-C energy releases. They know the raw dimensional energy concentration being used. They wouldn't call the field impossible to breach if they just had to take the same energy that they always deal with and modify it into a beam or something.
    • If they say that it is impossible to breach the field, then to their knowledge, nothing at the Annihilargh's level of energy and below can breach the field. Therefore, anything that is at least Low 2-C or above would be able to breach the Extra-Dimensional Field.
  • Because Alien X DNA was able to breach the "impossible to breach" Extra-Dimensional field created by beings who deal with Low 2-C energy all the time, Alien X should be At least Low 2-C.
Click to expand...
Here's my first issue, you cannot tank creation. As shown several times, the entire ship is unaffected by the Big Bang but gets broken by mere ships, has large building level missiles, has metal pipes that can be broken by Grey Matter, and plenty of other things that happen in Episode 7 that break it. What's shown supports the idea that you can't tank creation. INB4 "the shield covered the whole ship", no evidence of that at all.

My second problem comes from the destruction. As shown in the last thread, the universe wasn’t destroyed temporally due to Mr. Smoothie being unchanged in the past. They’re even shown at the same time and are both completely different. Before anyone claims this is a different timeline, you need evidence for that, as nothing points to it being a different timeline. Especially when the coordinates made by Ben in the past appeared in the future.

3-A destruction and low 2-C creation for the Annihilargh is what that’s pointing to.
 
Zamasu_Chan said:
Here's my first issue, you cannot tank creation. As shown several times, the entire ship is unaffected by the Big Bang but gets broken by mere ships, has large building level missiles, has metal pipes that can be broken by Grey Matter, and plenty of other things that happen in Episode 7 that break it. What's shown supports the idea that you can't tank creation. INB4 "the shield covered the whole ship", no evidence of that at all.
Click to expand...
In this episode, the creation of the universal space-time can cause harm.

The Contumelia say that they created an Extra-Dimensional field to protect them from the Annihilargh's release of energy, implying its activation would cause harm. They wouldn't make an "impossible to breach" field if that wasn't the case.

When the Annihilargh activates near Ben, both Maltruant and Rook believed Ben had been killed, again pointing out that the released energy causes harm.

The reason why the show only had the protective field inside the ship when the Annihilargh detonates outside of it is up to speculation. I have not said that the ship has Universal durability. I personally think it's an animation mistake since it contradicts the statements and plot of the scene.

To reiterate, the Contulemia are familiar with and deal with the universe and time creating energies numerous times. With this prior knowledge, they created the Extra-Dimensional field that is impossible to breach. They wouldn't call the field impossible to breach if all they had to do was take the same amount of energy that they always use for making space-time and mold it into an attack or something.
Zamasu_Chan said:
My second problem comes from the destruction. As shown in the last thread, the universe wasn’t destroyed temporally due to Mr. Smoothie being unchanged in the past. They’re even shown at the same time and are both completely different. Before anyone claims this is a different timeline, you need evidence for that, as nothing points to it being a different timeline. Especially when the coordinates made by Ben in the past appeared in the future.
Click to expand...
Regarding the Annihilargh's first detonation in the series, we are told in the finale about the different outcomes depending on if there is universal space-time currently existing or not. We can't necessarily equate the two outcomes the same way since what's created and what's destroyed isn't equal due to environmental conditions.
 
Eficiente said:
So, this thread will have to wait some time. There are some wording choices on the tiering that need to be fixed first, and second we never decided if characters that are "[X number] dimensional" should have the ability of Higher-Dimensional Existence, which we currently do (but won't in the future, really). So I'll deal with both matters, the latter will have to set up standards that might take a while, and with all that in hand we should start this thread.
Click to expand...
Depending on the final agreements in the Big Bang Revision, this thread might become a moot point.
 
Firestorm808 said:
In this episode, the creation of the universal space-time can cause harm.

The Contumelia say that they created an Extra-Dimensional field to protect them from the Annihilargh's release of energy, implying its activation would cause harm. They wouldn't make an "impossible to breach" field if that wasn't the case.

When the Annihilargh activates near Ben, both Maltruant and Rook believed Ben had been killed, again pointing out that the released energy causes harm.
Click to expand...
Never said it can’t harm you. Only that it’s not low 2-C in terms of force. A release of thermal energy can still kill Ben. Look at this. An obvious explosion but no damage to the ship.
Firestorm808 said:
The reason why the show only had the protective field inside the ship when the Annihilargh detonates outside of it is up to speculation.
Click to expand...
So you admit it’s speculation? Good, there’s no proof of it anyway.
Firestorm808 said:
I have not said that the ship has Universal durability. I personally think it's an animation mistake since it contradicts the statements and plot of the scene.
Click to expand...
It doesn’t contradict anything, so I don’t know what you mean.
Firestorm808 said:
To reiterate, the Contulemia are familiar with and deal with the universe and time creating energies numerous times. With this prior knowledge, they created the Extra-Dimensional field that is impossible to breach. They wouldn't call the field impossible to breach if all they had to do was take the same amount of energy that they always use for making space-time and mold it into an attack or something.
Click to expand...
We know their methods of creation and destruction because they were shown to us. For destruction, it’s not an explosion and at best would make the field 3-A. And for creation, I already went over that. Why would something “impossible to breach” be low 2-C when the creation of the universe doesn’t even have low 2-C force?
Firestorm808 said:
Regarding the Annihilargh's first detonation in the series, we are told in the finale about the different outcomes depending on if there is universal space-time currently existing or not. We can't necessarily equate the two outcomes the same way since what's created and what's destroyed isn't equal due to environmental conditions.
Click to expand...
So you agree it’s 3-A destruction?
 
Can you explain what we currently need to decide here and what has been accepted so far please?
 
Depending on the requirements agreed on to say an entire timeline was made vs a moment of time, the feat would default to 3-A if there isn't enough context from the source material.
 
Thank you, although I noticed your other message there.
 
Firestorm. The big bang thread doesn’t seem to have as much relevance as we thought. I already said I was fine with the Annihilargh having low 2-C creation.
Zamasu_Chan said:
Never said it can’t harm you. Only that it’s not low 2-C in terms of force. A release of thermal energy can still kill Ben. Look at this. An obvious explosion but no damage to the ship.

So you admit it’s speculation? Good, there’s no proof of it anyway.

It doesn’t contradict anything, so I don’t know what you mean.

We know their methods of creation and destruction because they were shown to us. For destruction, it’s not an explosion and at best would make the field 3-A. And for creation, I already went over that. Why would something “impossible to breach” be low 2-C when the creation of the universe doesn’t even have low 2-C force?

So you agree it’s 3-A destruction?
Click to expand...
You also never responded to these refutes that I made earlier.
 
While progress on the Big Bang thread is currently slowed, I can see the general trend based on current agreements. With that in mind, I'm fine with the At least 3-A rating. Unfortunately, there isn't enough context for a solid Low 2-C rating.
 
Okay. Thank you. Have we reached a conclusion here then?
 
I'm sure Ant has no issues with this being a collaborative effort. What did you want to talk about regarding the notes?
 
Firestorm808 said:
I'm sure Ant has no issues with this being a collaborative effort. What did you want to talk about regarding the notes?
Click to expand...
We need scans on why Alien X and the Annihilatergh are 3-A, with the Annihilargh having low 2-C creation. As well is not being able to "tank the big bang. Let me think of something to write, in the mean time.
 
For the Annihilargh's Profile
Note: The Annihilargh has 3-A destruction due to the lack of evidence that spacetime was destroyed. Mr. Smoothy was shown to be unchanged in the past while completely changed in the present, which means Alien X never recreated the universe's spacetime.

For Alien X's profile
Note: The Contumelia Ship was undamaged by the Big Bang but has damaged by far less such as Grey Matter breaking one of it's metal pipes, Rook's Ship being able to break through it, and its weaponry being a no more than a threat to Ben's regular Aliens. As a result, Ben using Alien X's DNA to cut through the Extra-Dimensional Barrier is unquantifiable.

@Antvasima @Firestorm808 I'd also like for us to remove that "at least" from his profile due to 3-A being a damn near endless tier. Plus it was stated more than once that Alien X couldn’t stop the destruction of the universe, so 3-A should be fine. Feedback should keep his low 2-C rating as he absorbed the big bang with it’s spacetime and turned it into lethal energy.
 
But shouldn't alien X scale above feedback as being most powerful character In Ben 10 franchise?
 
Teezar said:
Not the absorption but the character itself.
Click to expand...
The absorption is why Feedback is low 2-C. And it’s not like it was Feedback by himself. Ben was forcefully switching between all aliens. Even Alien X, who the Omnitrix didn’t choose for the Big Bang at the moment.
 
Zamasu_Chan said:
For the Annihilargh's Profile
Note: The Annihilargh has 3-A destruction due to the lack of evidence that spacetime was destroyed. Mr. Smoothy was shown to be unchanged in the past while completely changed in the present, which means Alien X never recreated the universe's spacetime.

For Alien X's profile
Note: The Contumelia Ship was undamaged by the Big Bang but has damaged by far less such as Grey Matter breaking one of it's metal pipes, Rook's Ship being able to break through it, and its weaponry being a no more than a threat to Ben's regular Aliens. As a result, Ben using Alien X's DNA to cut through the Extra-Dimensional Barrier is unquantifiable.

@Antvasima @Firestorm808 I'd also like for us to remove that "at least" from his profile due to 3-A being a damn near endless tier. Plus it was stated more than once that Alien X couldn’t stop the destruction of the universe, so 3-A should be fine. Feedback should keep his low 2-C rating as he absorbed the big bang with it’s spacetime and turned it into lethal energy.
Click to expand...
This seems fine.
 
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